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26.11.14 0034
The W - Pro Wrestling - Chris Benoit passes away (Page 30)
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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 12 hours
Last activity: 43 min.
#581 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.62
    Originally posted by probleus
      Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      I'm sure that if someone asked outright, Vince would definitely acquiesce, but there's certainly an ingrained mentality, which I figure is perpetuated subtly and not so subtly by management and talent both, that true pros don't take time off and you keep going as long as the company needs you.


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't one of the reasons that RVD chose not to resign because they wouldn't grant him an extended vacation?


Oh yeah, good point. I don't know whether that was an outright refusal so much as it was haggling and prodding that contributed to him ultimately deciding against re-signing. IIRC there was an issue over him wanting to be paid his downside during the time off and them feeling otherwise.


    True, and that's a point not exclusive to wrestling at all. It's the same vibe in any sport. Guys work through injuries and if you need to take something to gut it out, you do it. The only difference is that in the NFL it might be to get through the playoffs. In wrestling, you work through it until you can't.


Yup. And the severity of some of the injuries that wrestlers have worked through is such that no NFL player, no matter how gutsy, would ever be allowed to play with them. Granted, wrestling is different because it's cooperative so you can work around an injury, protect someone, or hide them in tags. But it's still probably very unsafe to keep going like that, especially if the way you do it is by taking more painkillers.
Alex
Bratwurst








Since: 24.2.02

Since last post: 13 days
Last activity: 59 min.
#582 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.80
I think this is a valid question:

If someone takes time off, do they get paid less than if they remained on the road? I'm thinking as far as terms of gate percentages and so on, obviously royalties would be unaffected.
TheOldMan
Landjager








Since: 13.2.03
From: Chicago

Since last post: 148 days
Last activity: 2 days
#583 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.74
I don't believe there's any question that if you're off the road, you make less - whether it's for injury, rest, rehab or whatever. As I understand it, each worker has a clause in his contract called a "downside guarantee", which is the absolute minimum they will get paid, even if they do nothing. Even when creative 'has nothing for you'. The amount of the guarantee will be greater for main-eventers, and lowest for guys like The Highlanders.

Beyond the guarantee, I think pay is what the E decides is your share the cut from a combination of - appearing at live events, TV, PPV matches and of course your position on the card - naturally Cena gets more than Finley, Finley gets more than Funaki. But if you're not working, you're not making anything beyond your downside guarantee. There are also residuals from merchandise and DVD sales. I recently read that HBK has resisted new theme music for years so that Sherri could continue to collect residuals for the shrieks you hear at the beginning of his "Sexy Boy" song.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

And since I'm posting here again, I want to bring over something from another thread -

On the subject of "the lifestyle":

I believe the problems we see in the industry today with steroids and pain killers are partly the demand to appear "larger than life" (even the shorter and smaller performers that have found WWE success appear to be heavily muscled, pound-for-pound). And of course there's nowhere near the nationwide network of feeder territories that existed back in the mid 80's to (a) develop new talent over a period of years on how to bump and work matches and/or (b) weed out the 'stiffs' that would never have the "x factor" needed to make it on the national stage.

But I'm speaking as someone who's "just a fan". All I know is what one can pick up from 40-some years of watching, probably the last 10-15 or so of those "more smartly".

While I would like to see further change, I'll stipulate that things are better than 10 years ago:

- McMahon has set up the "Wellness program".
- He is known for helping workers get through rehab (although AFAIK only those that may have future use)
- He let a current money draw go in Kurt Angle, apparently when he wouldn't clean up to the E's satisfaction.
- The working schedule is down to more like 150 dates a year, from closer to 250 before, and the E has tried to eliminate certain 'dangerous' moves.
- There's a legit argument to be made that steroids may have certain medical uses, and the advantage of using them doesn't relate to actual competition as they do in NFL or MLB.

On the other hand:

- There are suspicions about the even-handedness of how the Wellness program is applied to top money-drawing talent.
- There is a loophole in the program in that prescription medications may exempt talent from failing drug tests, presumably for steroids and pain medications both.
- There is a mountain of circumstantial evidence that suggests that talent is under pressure to both "look big", and "be reliable" - if they want to ascend to the top of the profession in the one and only big-money promotion.
- The WWE is extremely media-unfriendly to anyone who might try to report objectively on any of these issues, to the point where the "dirt sheets" are the best independent opinion available.
- While correctly pointing out that the media is sensationalizing the steroid angle, the E has been rather disingenuous themselves in picking and choosing when and where to respond, and the responses have been mainly from a P.R. expert's script (IMO).
- There is no logic (that I know of) to defend the classification of workers as "independent contractors", and thus deny them workplace benefits. It was one thing in 1985 when McMahon was building his empire, but now WWE is public traded, WCW and ECW have been vanquished and there's a steady revenue stream that the workers seem to get a skinny cut from. (At least compared to other sports performers. Not sure how they compare with entertainers.)

My thing is, if those who argue for the status quo are right, these deaths will greatly reduce in the 10-15 years to come, and we'll all be happy. But if they're wrong, there will be that many more dead workers that end up like circus animals who can't perform anymore. Ken Kennedy himself might be the one on MSNBC with a list of fallen co-workers.






It's the Big "W", I tell ya! The Big "W"!
dwaters
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Since: 16.10.02
From: Connecticut

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#584 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.66
    Originally posted by TheOldMan
    I believe the problems we see in the industry today with steroids and pain killers are partly the demand to appear "larger than life" (even the shorter and smaller performers that have found WWE success appear to be heavily muscled, pound-for-pound).


It's come up a lot in the steroid talk that wrestlers need "the look" to succeed in the business.
Not necessarily.

Exhibit A: Mick Foley.

Here's a guy who did pretty well for himself in the business of pro wrestling while having zero muscular tone or definition. I don't think he ever took off his shirt. He was a big guy, but definitely didn't have the look that everyone is insisting that wrestlers need in order to get a push.
That was a big part of his appeal- a regular looking guy who could get in there and hang with the Rocks and Austins of the world.

I don't know if people want to see a whole roster of Mick Foleys, but he's proof that you don't need to look like Lashley or Batista to entertain.
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 25 days
Last activity: 1 day
#585 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.93
    Originally posted by TheOldMan
    I recently read that HBK has resisted new theme music for years so that Sherri could continue to collect residuals for the shrieks you hear at the beginning of his "Sexy Boy" song.


That's heartwarming, but absurd. Sherri would never have been entitled to any residuals whatsoever as she didn't write the song. Jimmy Hart on the other hand probably still gets paid for Shawn using it, as he composed it. Also, the days on the road are down from what they were, but I don't think it's down all the way to 150.

    Originally posted by dwaters
    I don't know if people want to see a whole roster of Mick Foleys, but he's proof that you don't need to look like Lashley or Batista to entertain.



      Foley is proof that if you are, A/ the single best promo man of your generation, and B/ willing to subject yourself to greater physical risks than any other worker of your generation, then no, you don't need to look like Lashley or Batista. However, if you do look like them, you don't even have to be good to get the same spot Foley nearly killed himself for.

      (edited by Hogan's My Dad on 15.7.07 1943)


      Was It Something I Said?
newmansmm
Loukanika








Since: 18.12.04

Since last post: 2688 days
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#586 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Thought this was interesting...

http://wrestleline.com/

The once very, very well-known and established online wrestling journalism site with a very provocative message...

I know it's probably not the same ownership, but still, just saw it and wanted to point it out.



"For whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
Matthew 16:25
Tenken347
Boudin blanc








Since: 27.2.03
From: Parts Unknown

Since last post: 19 hours
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#587 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.54
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
      Originally posted by TheOldMan
      I recently read that HBK has resisted new theme music for years so that Sherri could continue to collect residuals for the shrieks you hear at the beginning of his "Sexy Boy" song.


    That's heartwarming, but absurd. Sherri would never have been entitled to any residuals whatsoever as she didn't write the song. Jimmy Hart on the other hand probably still gets paid for Shawn using it, as he composed it.


Actually, since Sherri's vocals were still being used, she would be entitled to collect residuals for each performance. Probably not a whole lot, considering it's just a brief section, but still. If Jimmy Hart is the composer, he would get a much larger piece of change. And as the primary vocalist, Shawn Michaels has certain rights to that performance of the song as well, although I would expect that's something that would be worked out in his contract.
Alex
Bratwurst








Since: 24.2.02

Since last post: 13 days
Last activity: 59 min.
#588 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.80
I think there's the slightest validity at taking umbridge at Lashley's megapush, actually. Not in a bitchy smark "why aren't you pushing CM Punk more you jerks" way, but in a "why are you trying to make a guy who doesn't have a whole lot of experience, isn't that skilled in the ring, isn't very impressive on the microphone, and hasn't made that much of a connection with the fans into one of the bigger stars in your company when his only redeeming factor seems to be that he's enormously over-muscular?" way.
Mayhem
Scrapple








Since: 25.4.03
From: Nashville, TN

Since last post: 28 days
Last activity: 15 hours
#589 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.14

Toxicology reports showed that Chris Benoit did NOT have steriods in his system, only testosterone.

Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 15 hours
Last activity: 2 hours
#590 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.01
    Originally posted by Mayhem

    Toxicology reports showed that Chris Benoit did NOT have steriods in his system, only testosterone.




The AP wire disagrees:

DECATUR, Ga. (AP) -- Investigators said Tuesday they had found steroids and other drugs in the body of pro wrestler Chris Benoit, who killed his wife and young son last month before hanging himself.

Also found in Benoit were the anti-anxiety drug Xanax and the painkiller hydrocodone, according to a statement from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. The GBI said Benoit tested negative for blood alcohol.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker

My blog will amuse. (heygregory.blogspot.com)
CxMorgado
Boudin rouge








Since: 21.1.02
From: Boston MA is the rippen'ist town...

Since last post: 337 days
Last activity: 5 hours
#591 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
      Originally posted by Mayhem

      Toxicology reports showed that Chris Benoit did NOT have steriods in his system, only testosterone.




    The AP wire disagrees:

    DECATUR, Ga. (AP) -- Investigators said Tuesday they had found steroids and other drugs in the body of pro wrestler Chris Benoit, who killed his wife and young son last month before hanging himself.

    Also found in Benoit were the anti-anxiety drug Xanax and the painkiller hydrocodone, according to a statement from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. The GBI said Benoit tested negative for blood alcohol.


Well, the AP is mistaken then, because the press conference VERY specifically stated that the only substances in Benoit's system was hydrocodone and Xanax (both at normal levels) and tesosterone.

Daniel was apparantly sedated before his death and Nancy had normal use levels of hydrocodone and Xanax, and a high blood alcohol level due to decomposition.

(edited by CxMorgado on 17.7.07 1506)

Biddip-bo!
Spaceman Spiff
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#592 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
Click Here (wrestlingobserver.com)

    It should be noted that in toxicology testing, for testosterone cypionate, the drug Dr. Phil Astin had prescribed for Benoit, to show up, a shot would likely have had to have been taken after the Friday morning before his death.





Texas Kelly
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Since: 3.1.02
From: FOREST HILLS CONTROLS THE UNIVERSE

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#593 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.54
Ladies and gentlemen, the following public service message is brought to you by your friends from D-Generation X, who would like to remind each and every one of you that if you're not down with that, we've got two words for you...

I can't wait to see how quickly the media (and specifically the idiots on Fox Noise) try and sweep the story under the rug now that their 'roid rage argument has been totally discredited.



e-mail me at texas (dot) kelly (at) gmailread a bunch of incoherent nonsense
now 52% more incoherent!
smark/net attack Advisory System is Elevatedsmark/net attack Advisory System Status is: Elevated
(Holds; June 18, 2006)
While the switch from Cena to RVD should alleviate some complaints, the inevitability of the belt's return to Cena (note where Summerslam is this year) and the poor initial showing by the new ECW are enough to keep the indicator where it is for now. The pieces are in place, though, especially on RAW, for improvements to be made to the IWC's psyche in the near future.
CxMorgado
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Since: 21.1.02
From: Boston MA is the rippen'ist town...

Since last post: 337 days
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#594 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by Texas Kelly
    I can't wait to see how quickly the media (and specifically the idiots on Fox Noise) try and sweep the story under the rug now that their 'roid rage argument has been totally discredited.


Judging by the headlines on MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/, headline "STEROIDS FOUND")and others, I actually won't be surprised if they keep on harping this as a roid rage issue.

(edited by CxMorgado on 17.7.07 1517)


Biddip-bo!
hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

Since last post: 2 days
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#595 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.25
T/E ratio was 59:1, ever so slightly over the magical 10:1 ratio that WWE adheres by.



Proud member of the Dwight Army of Champions.

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RYDER FAKIN
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Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

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#596 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.97
Judging by the headlines on http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ and others, I actually won't be surprised if they keep on harping this as a roid rage issue.

It's hard to claim "rage" when the results show he methodically, and with premeditation, drugged his son before strangling him

"Testosterone" is a steroid, but it appears it's sexier to say "steroids found" instead of "a high elevation of medically prescribed testosterone", etc. Goddamn LIBERAL (I SAID LIBERAL, Hannity) doctor!

FLEA

EDIT: Good reports in the links below. Wonder if the talking heads will read their own websites?


(edited by RYDER FAKIN on 17.7.07 1532)

Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high

1ryderfakin.com
CajunMan
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Give me a Title shot!

Since last post: 1133 days
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#597 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.97
this from Fox News"We report You decide"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289649,00.html


and ESPN


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2939837

(edited by CajunMan on 17.7.07 1430)


I'm CajunMan and I approve this message.
Texas Kelly
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Since: 3.1.02
From: FOREST HILLS CONTROLS THE UNIVERSE

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#598 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.54
Ladies and gentlemen, the following public service message is brought to you by your friends from D-Generation X, who would like to remind each and every one of you that if you're not down with that, we've got two words for you...

*sighs*

I'm gonna go watch "What We Call the News" on Jibjab and shake my head at the sorry state of the media in this country.



e-mail me at texas (dot) kelly (at) gmailread a bunch of incoherent nonsense
now 52% more incoherent!
smark/net attack Advisory System is Elevatedsmark/net attack Advisory System Status is: Elevated
(Holds; June 18, 2006)
While the switch from Cena to RVD should alleviate some complaints, the inevitability of the belt's return to Cena (note where Summerslam is this year) and the poor initial showing by the new ECW are enough to keep the indicator where it is for now. The pieces are in place, though, especially on RAW, for improvements to be made to the IWC's psyche in the near future.
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 12 hours
Last activity: 43 min.
#599 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.62
Benoit 59:1 says I just etc etc etc.

Daniel's sedation is "good" news.


    Originally posted by WWE statement
    WWE understands that the toxicology reports for Chris Benoit indicate that he tested positive for testosterone and negative for anabolic steroids. On Mr. Benoit's last drug test in April 2007 administered by Aegis Labs, he tested negative for anabolic steroids and for testosterone. Given the toxicology report of GBI released today, it would appear that Mr. Benoit took testosterone sometime after his April 2007 test and the time he died. WWE understands that his dealings with Dr. Astin are currently being investigated, and WWE has no knowledge of whether Dr. Astin prescribed testosterone for Mr. Benoit at some point after the April 2007 tests.


Oh good. This policy must be ironclad and not subject to any scrutiny whatsoever.


    For over 20 years, the WWE has been demonstrating our concern for the well being of our contracted athletes, instituting drug testing in 1987 leading up to our current Wellness Program which began on February 27, 2006, administered by Dr. David L. Black of Aegis Sciences Corporation - one of the world's foremost drug testing authorities.


The no-testing-at-all between November 1996 and November 2005 was, indeed, the perfect lead-in to the current Wellness Program.
jwrestle
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#600 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.44
OK, I feel better now. Can mass media stop riding steroids? My guess is they'll word it some way that it still points to the usage over time even though his body came back negative for steroids.

Secondly, yeah, again the E's test policy isn't iron clad is a laugh. Though they try to pass it off, which makes me want to call Stanford now, as perfectly fine.

Finally...I can feel a little better about it all and knowing it was probably something else yet, once again, what legacy to hit a brick wall.



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"World, Canadian, Celtic, Fusion all pulled off as there own."
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Triple H is currently this decades Lex Luger, with more pull of course. Hunter had his run as a pretty good worker, and I agree that workrate appears to be gone now. I don't ever think he will regain that form.
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