Even though everyone groans at the thought of celebrity angles in wrestling, Wrestlemania 14 showed us that it could have some benefits. Dennis Rodman's involvement in WCW also had a lot of people talking.
Controversial celebrities could get casual viewers to tune in. Someone like Ron Artest, Ricky Williams, or even Michael Moore.
I think a celebrity angle is just what the build up to Wrestlemania 21 needs.
(edited by LionJeetSingh on 25.11.04 1144) Vut Joo Talkin?
Lawrence Taylor's performance in his match against Bam Bam Bigelow impressed me very much...I think that it is possible for a celebrity to pull out a good match if inspired. Dennis Rodman's wrestling skills were also quite good, if my memory serves me correctly.
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Ok, you're on crack...but a celebrity coming in and beating a professional wrestler not only hurts wrestling in general, but more importantly KILLS the wrestler...Bam Bam was NEVER the same again, and only in ECW did he somewhat show a shade of recovery...ratings or buyrates should never outweigh a wrestler's future...now Vince has other ideas about that I guess...yet in the long run, celebrities should stay in Hollywood, wrestlers should stay in the ring...
OverpusHHHed...Patterson was right...
"Win if you can, lose if you must, but in the end, always cheat..." - Jesse "the Body" Ventura
Originally posted by Y2J 420...ratings or buyrates should never outweigh a wrestler's future...
Depends. How do you qualify that statement? Did you support Stone Cold working hurt and risking paralysis? He did it, it paid off for everyone, but it was a huge risk. I'd say, since he didn't get paralyzed, it was worth it.
In this situation you are 100% right, however. Bam Bam was promised the world title, which is the only reason he agreed to lay down for LT. Of course, he probably should have realized that was a lie when he looked in the mirror and saw that he was Bam Bam Bigelow.
Hell, in this case it wasn't even about buyrates and ratings. WM 11 was a total flop, you could say. The buyrate was okay, a 1.3, but when the Rumble does a 1.0 you have to wonder if that small spike was A- worth whatever they paid LT and whatever TV time was invested in him, and B- would not have been attained regardless since it was, after all, a Wrestlemania.
That said, you can't credibly argue any good came of it outside of that buyrate, because business went into the toilet after that and stayed there for some time. Yes, some newspapers covered it, but they did so with their noses turned up at the business, so what good did it do? There may have been many reasons for this, but a celebrity crossover is supposed to build momentum, which effectively happened later when Stone Cold got the rub off Tyson.
The real casualty of the BamBam/LT thing, in my opinion, was, as much as I hate to suggest it, Kevin Nash. Far be it for me to suggest Nash ever could have succeeded as a main event star, and I don't want to suggest it, believe me, but you have to wonder if the fact he was the WWF Champion and wasn't in the main event of Wrestlemania* hurt his drawing power as the cornerstone of the company. I mean, the Rumble winner goes on to challenge the Champ in the undercard? Hyooooge mistake. That doesn't really say a lot for how strongly management believes in those guys. And there was really no reason for the LT/BamBam fiasco to be the main, it was a grudge match and it belonged in the mid-card.
However, as mentioned above, it has been done right in the past, most notably with Tyson. Also, when it comes to people being guest ring announcers and guest commentators and interviewers backstage, as well as doing little vignettes, I think the celebrities really add a special touch. Wrestlemania isn't supposed to be just another wrestling card, only pushed harder and built up more. It's supposed to be the grandaddy of them all, a spectacle, glitz and glamour.
So yeah, I say bring back the celebs, just use 'em right.
*They did this once before, to Savage and Flair. That was different for a number of reasons. One was that it was to be Hogan's final match, and that was huge and deserved to main. Another, and a more important reason, is that it wasn't the "first dance" for the new champ that night. Savage had already been annointed years earlier, it was a ME of two journeyman superstar wrestlers going at it. Nash, on the other hand, needed that launching pad to cement himself as numero uno, and was robbed of the opportunity.
(edited by Hogan's My Dad on 25.11.04 2318)
(edited by Hogan's My Dad on 25.11.04 2320) Hot Virgins-The World's Most Steadily Shrinking Commodity
The past few Wrestlemania's did well without big celebrity names doing anything other than singing a song..
I don't think they really need them. I am not quite sure if the ones you named (controversial guys who fight the crowd) will do much good. Actually I would imagine it would benefit WWE more to get some guys like erhm..*fill in name of big sports star who is in the crowds favor atm*
Let's summarize here on good celeb involvement and bad celeb involvement
Good: Tyson betrays DX (helps put Stone Cold over that much more) Pete Rose vs. Kane 3 years in a row (classic comedy)
Bad: Rodman (seriously good wrestling?) Leno (need I even say why?) Karl Malone (so bad i almost forgot) David Aruquette (WCW champ... belt was tainted ever since) Master P & No Limit Soldiers (bet you forgot about this cRAP) Kiss and their wrestler (who?) LT in main event (ME for worst WM probably ever)
Undecided: Mr T. (the jury is still out on this one)
My point is more often than not this kinda stuff is bad for the business in the long run as all it really does is alienate the real wrestling fan. Those fans are your bread and butter and the ones who keep you in business. Sure it may bring in a new fan or two but those aren't the kind of people who go out and buy merchandise or buy PPV's like it was a religion. A quote that best fits this situation is "Don't bite the hand that feeds you"
Well, Rodman and Malone drew one of the biggest buyrates in the history of WCW and got them a ton of mainstream publicity. And how in the world is the jury still out on celebrity involvement from 1985? I think they decided long ago that Mr. T was one of if not the biggest reasons for Wrestlemania 1's success.
As a matter of fact, both of the WWF's boom periods were predicated by a celebrity (T and Tyson) giving the rub to the top babyface (Hogan and Austin) and attracting mainstream attention for the Wrestlemania show. With all the new eyeballs watching, Hogan and Austin then each caught on with a bigger audience in a huge way thanks to their own inherent charisma and superstarpower. If WWE wants Cena to become the next crossover star, mayhaps they should shoot some kind of angle with, uhh, well, Eminem is the only name in The Hip Hop that I can think of big enough to make a significant difference. But that disrupts the formula, because he's not athletically credible and doesn't carry an aura of toughness (either perceived or legit) like Mr. T and Tyson did. Also, he's lame. Also, he's ... not black. I'm not buying JBL in the important Roddy Piper/Shawn Michaels role either, although Kurt Angle could probably pull it off.
I'm just kidding, however, because it's so not that easy, and not only because John Cena isn't Hogan or Austin. WWE last thought about using this formula to make Brock Lesnar into a crossover star. They negotiated with Lennox Lewis to do a shoot match against Brock, figuring if he could win, he'd be mega-made and if he lost, then they damaged a guy who probably wasn't going to break through anyway. I think the initial idea was Lesnar and Angle could beat boxers in shoots at No Way Out '03 to legitimize them, make them mainstream names, and make their Wrestlemania match a major dream showdown between two super-real amateur champions. Of course, the negotiations with the boxers fell through, they didn't end up promoting Angle/Brock as anything resembling ultra-realistic athletic dream match, and Angle's neck finally fell to pieces that February anyway.
Everyone has mentioned Wrestlemania 11 in this thread, natch. To HMD, I don't think the use of LT diminished Nash, because Nash and Michaels as the headliners were diminished to begin with, and the idea behind Taylor was, like in the other two cases, to use a celebrity to attract extra exposure for the existing star, in this case Diesel. Obviously it didn't work in the slightest. I don't remember Taylor ever giving any specific rub to Diesel except for maybe at that public workout the last week before the show. I also completely agree that the title match should've gone last without question, although they didn't exactly write if off since they loaded it up with celebrities too (Pamela Anderson, Jenny McCarthy, et al) and it didn't make a difference or get Diesel any more over.
But for it to have worked like they wanted, Taylor and Diesel would've had to have interacted and been linked on TV, not just worked on the same card. Maximum effectiveness probably would've been in making it a tag match a la Hogan & T and Rodman & Malone. (One of the earlier rumors for Wrestlemania 14 was, besides the Austin vs. Tyson pipe dream, Austin teaming with Tyson against Michaels and Triple H.) When you put a celeb in a tag match, not only can you put more guys in to carry it, but any publicity surrounding the celebrity's match also mentions the actual wrestlers involved, and any pictures or clips that get shown would've had Nash and Michaels in them. But ultimately it wouldn't have made a difference anyway since Taylor didn't have anything approaching T or Tyson's starpower and Nash is still Nash.
I seriously doubt that the McMahons would want to work with Michael Moore, as they are pretty staunch republicans. However, I can only imagine what the writers could come up with as far as a backstage skit with Ricky Williams and Rob Van Dam goes.
The answer to WWE's financial problems...
Never 'Wiener of the Day', and is actually quite bitter about it.
Originally posted by TL_HopperAnd I thought we all agreed that IX was the worst Wrestlemania.
By the way, in my opinion, LT vs. Bigelow is the Savage vs. Steamboat of celebrity matches.
I don't really see why it would be called a "celebrity" match, outside of his fame as a football player. Much like Bigelow, LT was a professional athlete; and to see him work the ring like that truly shocked me.
I think the 'F was looking for buyrates, and I'm certain that's what they got.
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Originally posted by JustinShapiroWell, Rodman and Malone drew one of the biggest buyrates in the history of WCW and got them a ton of mainstream publicity. And how in the world is the jury still out on celebrity involvement from 1985? I think they decided long ago that Mr. T was one of if not the biggest reasons for Wrestlemania 1's success.
As a matter of fact, both of the WWF's boom periods were predicated by a celebrity (T and Tyson) giving the rub to the top babyface (Hogan and Austin) and attracting mainstream attention for the Wrestlemania show. With all the new eyeballs watching, Hogan and Austin then each caught on with a bigger audience in a huge way thanks to their own inherent charisma and superstarpower.
The chicken and the egg argument on Mania I: Was Mr. T the celebrity that helped fuel the boom of the mid 80's, or was it the Cyndi Lauper/Lou Albano feud that kicked it off? It briefly catapulted Wendi Richter (the old PWI Cover stating Wendi Richter was more popular than Hogan does rank up there with Chris Von Erich leading the Von Erich's and wrestling into the 21st Century cover), eventually involved Piper, and then Hogan positioned himself into the celebrity spotlight angle.
Money is no replacement for the love of a good woman. Real estate, especially in the current marketplace, is another story.
Originally posted by Phantom LordWM 21 needs a big Hollywood Liberal to fued with JBL.
Michael Moore invades Smackdown and costs JBL the title.
It would write it self.
Haha, great idea. But you would absolutley have to bring back Nikoli Volkoff into the mix, so he and Moore could do their rendition of the Soviet national anthem. Judging by Bradshaws actions in Germany, the payoff at WM21 could be the Stalingrad deathmatch.
The “Punisher” gimmick would have been really interesting. If they play it straight and gave him some wins, it could be a cool way to get fans to take him seriously and could get him back into the upper-midcard.