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The W - Pro Wrestling - Carlito in the doghouse? (Page 2)
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Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 22 hours
Last activity: 12 hours
#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.29
I like Chris Masters too, but he is by no means "further along" than Carlito.

It has never been the booking style of WWE to have a constantly revolving set of top guys, none being clearly established as superior to the other. They've always built around one top face, and the only time they didn't do that was during the Triple H death reign of 2002-2003, probably some of the worst television they ever did. Cena's earned his spot and works his ass off. Cena is not Carlito's problem. Or Jeff Hardy's. Jeff is about where he should be.

Carlito always had this rep, but WWE expects everyone to have such a hard-on for being in the company that they'll kill themselves and blindly adhere to any retarded thing that the company wants them to do. Some people show up and punch-in, do their work, and punch out. There have always been guys like that in the business, there are in any business. Even a "lazy" Carlito still has about nine times that natural athleticism that Triple H, Cena or Batista does. I don't see why just because it's wrestling anyone should be required to live their job. Not everyone is Vince McMahon. Competence should be enough. After all, Brock Lesnar broke a neck and blatantly hated the business and they still made him Champion.



Was It Something I Said?
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1986 days
Last activity: 1920 days
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
MNM have now been permanently separated, so Johnny's certainly not relegated to the tag ranks. And saying the SmackDown's only a notch or two above TNA is crazy. I just think you can't make excuses for guys like Carlito when people like Kennedy, Nitro, Hardy, Finlay, Benoit, Shelton, and even MVP go out there and give it their all in a similar position.

And HMD, Carlito may have "nine times" the athleticism of Triple H or Cena, but he has nowhere the same wrestling ability, timing or know-how about working a match that those two do.



To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 36 days
Last activity: 1 day
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.57
Being TNA champion is hardly prestigious, don't get me wrong. It is a distant 3rd in the title pecking order. What I was saying was a knock on SD!. There belt is a distant 2nd.

WWE has booked that show with minimal effort for 3 years, and in this fan's opinion, has greatly devalued the prestige of their title. A perfect example is their title matches at the last 2 WrestleManias have gone less than 10 minutes. On the biggest show of the year!

Yes, there is decent wrestling on the show, and I like several guys on the show, but if I miss an episode, I don't think I miss anything. The only guy on the show that seems like a big time star is Undertaker, and it shouldn't be that way at this point in his career. Maybe I was just spoiled by SD! in '02.




Dean! Have you been shooting dope into your scrotum? You can tell me! I'm hip!
Mayhem
Scrapple








Since: 25.4.03
From: Nashville, TN

Since last post: 34 min.
Last activity: 34 min.
#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.21

I was really starting to dig Carlito a few months back, but it's almost as if he's been "neutered" (for lack of a better term) by his pairings with Trish & now Torrie.

Heck, this is the guy who, a few months back, some people were touting to be the next Rock (as far as charisma goes), but now he's nothing more than a lower-end mid-carder.



BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 3 hours
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.68
I'm curious what kentish thinks about this ... 6/24 posts in this thread.

If anything the WWE should finish ripping off the Razor Ramon gimmick. Not line for line, but give Carlito some dickhead poses that he can do during a match. Have him show up his opponets a little in the ring. Maybe get him a lackey instead of a woman.

The Razor Ramon character was the best tweener the WWE had before the attitude era. They started Carlito off on this road, but then for some reason stopped.

Of course Carlito doesn't seem any lamer than Randy Orton either so maybe it's just who you know.
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 10 days
Last activity: 2 days
AIM:  
#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
One thing to keep in mind is that Carlito isn't like a lot of folks who made the decision growing up that "hey, I think I'd like to try and get into the business." He was pretty much born into it and I doubt that there was much of a choice once it became apparent he would have the size necessary to be a viable competitor. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he had no real interest in giving his life to the business and just wants to do it long enough to make his money and move on. In which case coasting by on natural ability is likely plenty for him. But because this is WWE where the company mindset is basically that there's wrestling and then death, that sort of attitude isn't going to do much. And to some degree I can understand it. They can see that a motivated Carlito could make them more money, and want to get that out of him. So I don't really criticize them for wanting him to do better, but I also can't say I'm having trouble understanding where he's possibly coming from. He's likely never going to advance to the top of the card and make the huge money, half-assing he's really no different than the rest of the midcard guys, so why kill yourself when you can hopefully work another 5-7 years, make some scratch, and retire while able to get out of bed without help?

I wonder also if this isn't a problem with the writers and the rigidity of characters these days. If you're lucky and get a character who you can play perfectly (like Mr. Kennedy) then you're golden. But when the writers and creative team give you your script and your character outline, and it just doesn't play to your strengths, and these days there is no real room to improv unless you're a top guy supposedly, then it can be tough to work with that. And as of late the character shift for Carlito to being a kind of boring white-bread face with a smirk and a hot chick has not really seemed to play to his strengths. And there's nothing much he can likely do about that.



Now I'll never be able to lead SPF's spfers! (The W)
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 36 days
Last activity: 1 day
#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.57
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    I'm curious what kentish thinks about this ... 6/24 posts in this thread.

    If anything the WWE should finish ripping off the Razor Ramon gimmick. Not line for line, but give Carlito some dickhead poses that he can do during a match. Have him show up his opponets a little in the ring. Maybe get him a lackey instead of a woman.

    The Razor Ramon character was the best tweener the WWE had before the attitude era. They started Carlito off on this road, but then for some reason stopped.

    Of course Carlito doesn't seem any lamer than Randy Orton either so maybe it's just who you know.


I do believe Carlito could use a character makeover, whatever that may be. Heel would be better, his face run has been terrible. It just doesn't work, and he was much more effective, and over, as a heel. Regardless of booking, or his own lack of motivation. I just hope they don't try to turn Flair heel for a feud with him, it should be the other way around. Few fans will side with anyone over Flair these days.




Dean! Have you been shooting dope into your scrotum? You can tell me! I'm hip!
Shade
Cotto








Since: 30.6.04

Since last post: 2203 days
Last activity: 2158 days
#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.11
I don't know. I think it's up to each individual to make the most of their opportunity. Shelton Benjamin seems to work his butt off every match I've seen be it a house show, big tag team match, or even if he's fed to someone else to get them over. I've never seen a match where I doubt the effort he puts out in the ring. I can't say the same for Carlito. For a while he seemed to be firing on all cylinders, but then it seemed like the less he was used, the less he gave a crap. That if he didn't have a "regular" spot or strong story direction he didn't care if he was just a filler or place holder.

My yard stick usually is Shane Helms. In whatever incarnation he's been in, be it the Hurricane, WCW, current true self incarnation, he ALWAYS makes the most of his opportunity. Be it a short promo, a cruiser weight title battle royal, losing making Batista look good in a "champion vs. champion" match, or as squash match fodder. He works his ass off. His promos are fun. And he sells as good as anyone I've ever watched. Does the WWE utilize him in the way they should or could? Not to me. Probably not to him either, but you wouldn't kknow it by the respect he puts into his job. I think WWE has rewarded him with this longest running champion bit despite how little respect the crusiser title is given at times. He's making the most of that every time he gets the chance to be seen too. He's watched alot of newer, less talented folks pass by him and you'd never know it from his attitude. The key to the term "Professional Wrestler" is the first word. Shane Helms is just that.
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 36 days
Last activity: 1 day
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.57
I agree about Helms, you never hear a bad word about him. It is sad that he went from a cartoon gimmick to a rather bland gimmick playing, basically, himself. But he does always bust ass.

Shelton always brings it in the ring too, but did not seem to improve one ounce on the mic in the last 2 years or so. Carlito has the personality, and they will always get behind a guy with charisma, and let the skills develop later. This was the case with guyes like Rock, Undertaker, HHH, and Batista (even though he has deteriorated).




Dean! Have you been shooting dope into your scrotum? You can tell me! I'm hip!
CajunMan
Boudin blanc
No longer registered








Since: 2.1.02
From: Give me a Title shot!

Since last post: 1099 days
Last activity: 236 days
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.18

I believe the WWE is piratically to blame for this too.
Anybody remember this night on raw? The no more Stupid matches clause, lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5aTNhY7CcQ

The Superstars should do this again this time using Cena as their leader


(edited by CajunMan on 14.2.07 1635)


I'm CajunMan and I approve this message.
Matt Tracker
Scrapple








Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 12 min.
Last activity: 6 min.
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.25
    Originally posted by kentish
    I agree about Helms, you never hear a bad word about him. It is sad that he went from a cartoon gimmick to a rather bland gimmick playing, basically, himself. But he does always bust ass.


There's nothing sad about being the longest reigning champ on SmackDown of which the hosts remind us time and again. It's much, much better than his last year as Hurricane. The only downside to his latest run as Gregory Helms was his last RAW angle with Lawler.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker

My blog will amuse. (heygregory.blogspot.com)
cfgb
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Ottawa, Ontario

Since last post: 5 hours
Last activity: 3 hours
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.45
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
      Originally posted by kentish
      I agree about Helms, you never hear a bad word about him. It is sad that he went from a cartoon gimmick to a rather bland gimmick playing, basically, himself. But he does always bust ass.


    There's nothing sad about being the longest reigning champ on SmackDown of which the hosts remind us time and again. It's much, much better than his last year as Hurricane. The only downside to his latest run as Gregory Helms was his last RAW angle with Lawler.


Because he's never given the chance to defend it!!!

He's got as much credibility as Duane Gill's year long run with the Light Heavyweight belt.
kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 36 days
Last activity: 1 day
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.57
Helms has held that belt for a long time, but who really cares? Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see a well developed cruiser division, but time has shown us that won't happen. And with the cruisers neutered by the "WWE style", the matches aren't even that great when they do get air time.

Kendrick and London have held their belts a long time too, that doesn't mean those belts are prestigious or well booked. Which is also sad.




Dean! Have you been shooting dope into your scrotum? You can tell me! I'm hip!
Whattaburger
Boerewors








Since: 18.5.04
From: Badstreet USA

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.73
    Originally posted by kentish
    I do believe Carlito could use a character makeover, whatever that may be. Heel would be better, his face run has been terrible. It just doesn't work, and he was much more effective, and over, as a heel. Regardless of booking, or his own lack of motivation.


Exactly. No one should be complaining one iota that the WWE dropped the ball with Carlito as a face (not saying you are, mind you) because IIRC, it was a large majority of people on here (and tons of smarks arrrrround the world) who thought it'd be "cool" and cheered a very good heel into a mediocre face and were salivating at the thought of it.

"OMG, hes gonna be liek the ROCK!!1!11!1"

Again, not that you were saying that, but no matter the booking or motivation, WWE didn't mess up Carlito -- the smarks did.

(bolding done by me)



It's just a message board, people. Chill out.
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 3 hours
#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.48
"The marks" were cheering for him too and there are like 100 times more of them.

I agree he was better as a heel, but that wouldn't have made his wrestling any better. He would've been a midcard heel stuck on the treadmill the same way he is as face and lost his motivation. Plus his highspot flippydoos are for faces, not heels.


    He's got as much credibility as Duane Gill's year long run with the Light Heavyweight belt.


Hey, Duane Gill wasn't wrestling and thus wasn't worn down by losing a bunch of non-title matches. That takes it toll on Helms for his defense every sixty days against Jimmy Wang Yang.
too-old-now
Bockwurst








Since: 7.1.04

Since last post: 1298 days
Last activity: 223 days
#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.33
I don't attend a lot of house shows so I can't comment on Carlito's attitude there. From what I have seen on Raw, and the judging from recaps I have read, it's pretty clear his face run isn't working. I can't tell if its because he is dogging it, or if the fans just aren't buying his face run.

Speaking of fan's buying him, Carlito moved a decent amount of merchandise, he had a couple of wearable shirts. Faces generally move more merchandise than heels. This is not always the case, as entertaining characters will move a lot of merchandise as well. Guys who are good on the mic will sell more shirts than guys who are bland, often regardless of how well they bring it in the ring.

I gotta guess his sales are down since his face run. This might be the reason he'll get re-packaged, perhaps they will bring back the cabana.

I think his feud with Flair will remotivate him - Flair has a knack for getting the best out of almost anybody.

kentish
Andouille








Since: 19.8.05
From: My Old Kentucky Home

Since last post: 36 days
Last activity: 1 day
#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.57
Bringing back the Cabana would be a great idea, I had not even thought about that. Once Jericho left, and took the obscenely expensive Jeritron 5000 with him it seemed like they would have kept the Cabana around. God knows they don't use The Cutting Edge very often.




Dean! Have you been shooting dope into your scrotum? You can tell me! I'm hip!
djp
Morcilla








Since: 16.2.07
From: 3rd Floor, NW window

Since last post: 129 days
Last activity: 16 days
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.00
Carlito's response to Naitch's rant should have been:

"Why am I not in the main event? Because it's thick at the top thanks to 58-year-old wrestlers with bleeding chests and jiggling man boobies can't seem to let us young guys through! Maybe instead of eating this apple I'll drop an elbow on it! Maybe I can start talking with a lisp and drive angry! Will that get me in the main event Naitch!?"
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Hey guys, I was lucky enough to be at Raw on Monday in Tulsa. Here's what went down live: DARK MATCH - Alberto Del Rio defeated Gold Dust. Decent enough match. Del Rio cut a promo in Spanish, then followed up in English for the cheap heel heat:
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