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27.11.14 0355
The W - Current Events & Politics - CANADA SHOWS ITS TRUE COLORS.
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CajunMan
Boudin blanc
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Give me a Title shot!

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
I thought this was interesting from guess who..........


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,63023,00.html


Enjoy!



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Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 233 days
Last activity: 34 days
#2 Posted on
Ummmm. Yay Canada?


-Jag

If the whole world agreed with Bill O'Reilly, well, at least he wouldn't have a job anymore....



"You gotta hate somebody before this is over. Them, me, it doesn't matter."

"Hate, who do I hate? You tell me."

"Who do you love?"

-Wintermute to Case in William Gibson's Neuromancer
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
As much as O'Reilly is a buffoon, the quote from Chretien is, well... bad?

Even as President Bush was making his case for forcibly removing Saddam Hussein at the U.N., Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien said this, quote, "I do think the Western world is getting too rich in relation to the poor world. And we're looked at as being arrogant, self-satisfying, greedy, and with no limits. And September 11 is an occasion for me to realize it even more," unquote.

If self-satisfaction is a sin, well, count me in. No, not that kind of self-satisfaction... sheesh. But, seriously: What the hell are we supposed to do? Handcuff ourselves for fear of outpacing a bunch of barbarous theocracies? If you're going to complain about interventionist foreign policy, that's fine. But complaining about our wealth and success is asinine, and dangerous. The "poor world" should emulate us, not vice versa.




Using a key to gouge expletives on another's vehicle is a sign of trust and friendship.
StampedeFan23
Morcilla








Since: 12.1.02
From: BC, Canada

Since last post: 2087 days
Last activity: 1623 days
#4 Posted on
I've never been one to actually like a politician, even one as slimy at Chretien, but I gotta say that most of Canada is privately cheering him. Everyone I know is! Go Jean!



Are you ready for Mahkan-mania to run wild all over you?
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 233 days
Last activity: 34 days
#5 Posted on
I think the complaint there PW is that we hold the rest of the world down (ahhh, wrasslin) by refusing to share that wealth. So it's kind of hard for the poorer countries to emulate us because we control all the money. Or something. Anyway, yeah, I'm not really sure about the "We should feel bad for having money" argument. I like the "We should feel bad for keeping everyone else poor" argument. Er. I'm not expressing myself well here. Okay.

Anyway, the thing I'm truly in agreement with here? The questioning of Bush's intent to just jump into war with Iraq. Why are we so anxious to sink to Saddam's level?

-Jag

And according to O'Reilly, we lost 299 American lives in the Gulf War. So how exactly does that justify the deaths of more Iraqis? Didn't we kill enough of them the first time?



"You gotta hate somebody before this is over. Them, me, it doesn't matter."

"Hate, who do I hate? You tell me."

"Who do you love?"

-Wintermute to Case in William Gibson's Neuromancer
Gavintzu
Summer sausage








Since: 2.1.02
From: Calgary ... Alberta Canada

Since last post: 2901 days
Last activity: 2901 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
If you would like to read some reaction to Chretien's comments, this article has some comments from Canada's former Prime Minister Mulroney (probably the most hated man in Canada, BTW) and current opposition leaders.

Personally, I think if you just read what Chretien said without reading in any non-existent "support for the terrorists", it is common-sensical. Third World poverty and mass unemployment, combined with modern communication which allows everyone on the planet to see how rich we are, will lead to anger for many, especially young hot-heads. This is exploited by megalomaniacs like Bin Laden. Easing Third World poverty would go a long way in uncutting any appeal terrorist organizations have.

Chretien: "But I've said that it is a division in the world that is building up. And I knew that it was inspiration for it (Sept 11).

"For me, I think the rest of the world is a bit too selfish and that there is a lot of resentment."






I can't go away with you on a rock-climbing weekend.
What if something's on TV and it's never shown again?
El Nastio
Andouille








Since: 14.1.02
From: Ottawa Ontario, by way of Walkerton

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Last activity: 52 min.
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.33
quote, "I do think the Western world is getting too rich in relation to the poor world.  And we're looked at as being arrogant, self-satisfying, greedy, and with no limits.  And September 11 is an occasion for me to realize it even more," unquote.

So what do you know, ol' Jean Poutine actually said something that made sense. People resenting what we have and they don't leads to jelousy and envy. Add to that religous beliefs and a lot of anger, you have yourselves a lot of people who resent you. And in a lot of cases, this resentment can/will lead towards fanaticism.


"Fanatics are so easy to manipulate....but they always seems to take things five times too far".
- Nom Anor, Traitor

People like Bin Laden and his fellow terrorist friends know this, and they liberally use it to their advantage. And like Gavintzu said, if they had a better standard of living, the resentment level would go down a fair bit.



EDIT: On a futher note, I'd like the guy who wrote this to look back at a couple of things. Namely who was the FIRST to rush to the USA's aid during 9/11. Whose small towns let people stay with them when planes were diverted. For that matter, whose airports helped out a lot of those diverted planes? Who helped out by sending soldiers to Afganistan? We won't even get into the four soldiers who died because of the bombing incident (RIP).


(edited by El Nastio on 13.9.02 2040)

~EL NASTIO!
CajunMan
Boudin blanc
No longer registered








Since: 2.1.02
From: Give me a Title shot!

Since last post: 1134 days
Last activity: 271 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by El Nastio
    quote, "I do think the Western world is getting too rich in relation to the poor world.  And we're looked at as being arrogant, self-satisfying, greedy, and with no limits.  And September 11 is an occasion for me to realize it even more," unquote.

    So what do you know, ol' Jean Poutine actually said something that made sense. People resenting what we have and they don't leads to jelousy and envy. Add to that religous beliefs and a lot of anger, you have yourselves a lot of people who resent you. And in a lot of cases, this resentment can/will lead towards fanaticism.


    "Fanatics are so easy to manipulate....but they always seems to take things five times too far".
    - Nom Anor, Traitor

    People like Bin Laden and his fellow terrorist friends know this, and they liberally use it to their advantage. And like Gavintzu said, if they had a better standard of living, the resentment level would go down a fair bit.



    EDIT: On a futher note, I'd like the guy who wrote this to look back at a couple of things. Namely who was the FIRST to rush to the USA's aid during 9/11. Whose small towns let people stay with them when planes were diverted. For that matter, whose airports helped out a lot of those diverted planes? Who helped out by sending soldiers to Afganistan? We won't even get into the four soldiers who died because of the bombing incident (RIP).


    (edited by El Nastio on 13.9.02 2040)



I think Bill is complaining more about the Prime Minister of Canada rather than the people of Canada.



http://www.trenchwarfare.net

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PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by Gavintzu
    If you would like to read some reaction to Chretien's comments, this article has some comments from Canada's former Prime Minister Mulroney (probably the most hated man in Canada, BTW) and current opposition leaders.

    Personally, I think if you just read what Chretien said without reading in any non-existent "support for the terrorists", it is common-sensical. Third World poverty and mass unemployment, combined with modern communication which allows everyone on the planet to see how rich we are, will lead to anger for many, especially young hot-heads. This is exploited by megalomaniacs like Bin Laden. Easing Third World poverty would go a long way in uncutting any appeal terrorist organizations have.

    Chretien: "But I've said that it is a division in the world that is building up. And I knew that it was inspiration for it (Sept 11).

    "For me, I think the rest of the world is a bit too selfish and that there is a lot of resentment."





No. We are obliged to share NOTHING. I'm not going to argue that the West is the most benevolent force in history (though clearly I support the West), we are under ZERO obligation to bail out ANY failed theocracy/dictatorship/third world dump.

Does this mean that we should "keep them downn?" No, of course not. But they are, by and large, not poor because we keep them that way. And we only "control the world's wealth" because we've built a functioning society. You know, one where Sharia law wouldn't be the law of the land.



Using a key to gouge expletives on another's vehicle is a sign of trust and friendship.
eviljonhunt81
Pepperoni








Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

Since last post: 3022 days
Last activity: 3019 days
#10 Posted on
While we aren't obliged to share the wealth, it probably wouldn't hurt. And if we institute and support corrupt regimes in that region, shouldn't be held a little responsible if they begin to fail?

Also, no other country in the world has successfully emulated the American style of government. We are living in a glitch, of sorts. It works here, but for some reason anybody that tries to emulate it fails miserably.



Jersey Is Dead - Feel my Grief

Weekly Visitor
Dahak
Frankfurter








Since: 12.5.02
From: Junction City OR.

Since last post: 2061 days
Last activity: 1714 days
#11 Posted on
The West could do more. I am not sure what since it seems that just money ends up often going to pay for death squads, palaces, and limos. But more technical help for things like water treatment plants and helping to improve farming.
But the 3rd world needs to start fixing it's own problems first. Cut down of on the birth rate. Follow religion if they want but don't let it run the country. Hold the damn govt. responsible if it won't get you killed.
Also how much is the rich Arabic countries doing to improve their poorer neighbors? How long is the #1 goal of the Islamic countries going to be to drive out the Israelis? Look at the horrid treatment that Syria and Jordan has given the Palestenians over the last 50 years. Murder and forcible explusion from their countries. It's time to admit that the Jews aren't going anywhere without nukes and trying to find a way for all countries in the Middle East to improve the lives of all it's people.




I just have 13 words for you. How much wood would a woodchuch chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
ekedolphin
Scrapple








Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

Since last post: 161 days
Last activity: 1 day
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.52
Well...

I don't think anyone can fully understand why our system works when so many others have failed. Perhaps other countries have simply adopted a Constitution similar to ours and have just expected that to take care of all their problems. But the fact is this-- we became a nation in 1776, but it took us 226 years to get where we are now. Third-world countries look at what we have and lust after it, and they expect us to simply hand over part of what we have. They're not willing to wait, or work for it-- they want it now, and they hate us because America has worked so hard to become the greatest nation on the planet.

I'm in agreement with Palpatine-- if we wanted to, we could just say “to hell with the rest of the world” and not be under any obligation to share any of our wealth. Yet for the better part of the last century, America has helped out other countries, and gotten pretty much dick in return.

Damn Europeans need to remember that if it wasn't for us, you'd all be hieling Hitler! We've literally saved the world a few times, yet we seem to get very little respect.

Having said that-- I'm not entirely sure going after Iraq is a good idea (mostly because of the very limited support we've had on this idea, and my belief that we shouldn't act unilaterally all the time). But Saddam Hussein is a wanted criminal with known ties to existing terrorist organizations. So it makes sense to me that we should smoke the bastard out.



“Now put that thing back where it came from or so help me-- Oh, hey! We're rehearsing a scene from the upcoming company play called Put That Thing Back Where It Came From Or So Help Me.”--
Mike Wazowski, Monsters, Inc.

Two-Time, Two-Time Randomly Selected Weiner of the Day, 5/27/02 and 7/3/02

Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 340 days
Last activity: 27 days
#13 Posted on
My $0.02 Canadian, OR: $0.01 US...


People hate the North American industrial countries because far more of us are rich, happy and good-looking. And we live longer. And have healthier children. And we don't have to have our children live in sweatshops.

The simple answer is that they're jealous. And who wouldn't be? And while Chretien is actually being smart by not going balls-out and blowing shit up in Iraq [because we can't afford to], it's pretty stupid to NOT support your biggest economic & military ally. We're gonna help the US in Iraq whether we like it or not, so it's easier if we all get on the same page here.

At least, that's MY OPINION.



Flames: 0-0-0-0 [Training Camp opens Sunday]
Stampeders: 3-8-0-2 [Last place in CFL West Division]
StampedeFan23
Morcilla








Since: 12.1.02
From: BC, Canada

Since last post: 2087 days
Last activity: 1623 days
#14 Posted on
Part of the problem is the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. These banks, propped up by the richest nations in the world, were original formed to help Third World countries stimulate their economies so they can climb out of their respective holes. But, years of lending have taken their toll. It's so bad that some countries' interest payments are larger than their GNP. But, rich countries don't want to disband the bank because they get millions of dollars from the payments and allowing them more control over Third World economies. This is why Bono was crusading for debt relief last year (and he was mighty pissed at Chretien for not doing something about it during the Kananaskis G-8 summit). During the energy crisis in the 70s, American banks were giving out bad loans to the Third World and it caused a collapse in the World Bank, since the bank did not have the money to pay off the loans (the Saudis etc, were too rich. I can't remember the exact details). But, it was propped up again by lending money back to the American banks. You can check that last part out, I am sure I am forgetting something...



Are you ready for Mahkan-mania to run wild all over you?
chazerizer
Italian








Since: 11.7.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 4425 days
Last activity: 881 days
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#15 Posted on
While I'm not sure we are completely guilt-free with relation to third world conditions, I do know that 1) We're not entirely responsible for it either, and 2) They'd be a lot worse if the US (and the western world in its entirety) didn't care just a little bit.

The real problem here is that money, etc, won't really solve the problems. Its the old "give a man a fish, teach a man to fish" thing. By merely giving money to governments in these countries, we've supported corruption, caused problems with the organizations performing the aid, and not really gained any benefits from it.

Side Note: "$0.02 Canadian, OR: $0.01 US" Oh man, thats funny. Someone give that man a Loonie.



Marty doesn't need surgery. This is a great day. I almost feel like I can say, I don't care that the Steelers lost

Steelers 0-1
Penguins 0-0-0-0
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1304 days
Last activity: 1101 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by chazerizer
    While I'm not sure we are completely guilt-free with relation to third world conditions, I do know that 1) We're not entirely responsible for it either, and 2) They'd be a lot worse if the US (and the western world in its entirety) didn't care just a little bit.

    The real problem here is that money, etc, won't really solve the problems. Its the old "give a man a fish, teach a man to fish" thing. By merely giving money to governments in these countries, we've supported corruption, caused problems with the organizations performing the aid, and not really gained any benefits from it.

    Side Note: "$0.02 Canadian, OR: $0.01 US" Oh man, thats funny. Someone give that man a Loonie.



*Applauds*

tarnish
Frankfurter








Since: 13.2.02
From: Back in the Heart of Hali

Since last post: 535 days
Last activity: 9 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.03

ekedolphin said:

    I'm in agreement with Palpatine-- if we wanted to, we could just say “to hell with the rest of the world” and not be under any obligation to share any of our wealth. Yet for the better part of the last century, America has helped out other countries, and gotten pretty much dick in return.


Dick in return? Quick, check the label on every item of clothing you're wearing. How many of them were made in the USA? How many of them were even made from materials that were made in the USA? Extend that past articles of clothing to your entire collection of Stuff (tm, George Carlin). I'd say America's got a lot in return for their aid, between cheap labor, materials that don't exist or grow at home, etc. As for your ``hell with the rest of the world'' statement, I'd like to see how long the USA would last as an insular, closed-border entity. Quick, give back everything you own that was made elsewhere. What have you got left? Part of the reason America got to the place it is was by trading with anyone and everyone instead of concerning themselves with getting involved with the politics of each and every little nation. Technological advancements of the past hundred years have made the world a much smaller place, thereby opening the doors for the kind of involvement in others business that the Western World has been all-too guilty of in the last century.

I admit to liking Chretien's tack here, but in reality there are boatloads of money in Middle Eastern and third world countries. Part of the problem is, the people who have it put it and spend it in places where their own people can't benefit from it (i.e. offshore accounts, Swiss accounts, North America, etc.).

Lastly, Dahak also brought up population problems and suggested they could be partially deflected through religion. I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed, but the respective Catholic populations of South America and Africa are far larger than anywhere else in the world. And these are old-school-type Catholics (thanks to those ever-industrious missionaries). Yet the Catholic church refuses to preach birth control in any way, shape, or form; in fact, the Church in these nations continues to encourage people to have large families. Hence religion, in this case, is more harm than good.




/tarnish...

how come you're so afraid of things that dont make any sense to you? do you water your raisins daily? do you have any raisins? is there anything that does make sense to you? are you afraid of twelve button suits? how come you're so afraid to stop talking?
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 24 days
Last activity: 4 hours
AIM:  
#18 Posted on
I'll just say one thing...Osama has/had a personal fortune in the billions. If that's what happens when money gets into the third world, then the hell with sharing. And yes, that was sarcasm.

Seriously though, the problem is that the first world has reaped the benefits of centuries of dicking over the rest of the world, and there is no solution to the problem which doesn't involve retroactively punishing/taxing/encouraging current generations to give up what their great-great grandparents (or those peoples neighbors) stole over the years.

Another point someone brought up is the fact that in many of the poorest countries/most anti-American and anti-Western World countries is the brutal usage of religious law. Thus we have a group of countries which are aggresively regressive, yet demand the rest of the world somehow conform with them. The interpretation of Islam as put out by most current theocratic regimes is anti-materialism, anti-technology, and fairly isolationist. What exactly should the rest of the world do in relation to such a thing? And that's a serious question, not some sort of lament.



God Loves Da Bears, Hates Jay Feely:
Chicago 14, Atlanta 13
Bears go to 2-0 (next vs. New Orleans)
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 2022 days
Last activity: 1956 days
#19 Posted on
"we are under ZERO obligation to bail out ANY failed theocracy/dictatorship/third world dump."

Playing Devil's advocate here; what about the dictatorships America helped to create back during the Cold War then fucked over as soon as that finished? You can't have your cake and eat it.





Apparently, I Am


The Result Of This Survey Was Really, Really Disturbing To Me

drjayphd
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 22.4.02
From: Long Island

Since last post: 21 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#20 Posted on

    Originally posted by spf2119
    Another point someone brought up is the fact that in many of the poorest countries/most anti-American and anti-Western World countries is the brutal usage of religious law. Thus we have a group of countries which are aggresively regressive, yet demand the rest of the world somehow conform with them. The interpretation of Islam as put out by most current theocratic regimes is anti-materialism, anti-technology, and fairly isolationist. What exactly should the rest of the world do in relation to such a thing? And that's a serious question, not some sort of lament.


I'd say cut them off. If they want to force us to comply with their laws, then they're dead to us. Then again, they might do something to get our attention that'd make 9.11 look like someone throwing pebbles at a window.

However, in some of these cases, couldn't the problem be solved with massive building of infrastructure? The problem with aid is that the money just goes to the top, where it isn't used to benefit anyone but corrupt regimes. If we could go into these countries and build schools/hospitals/whatever, in compliance with their laws and traditions, then that would probably do much more good.



Today's Out-Of-Context Quote, Courtesy of Fuzzy Logic:

"I want to have JR's lovechild."
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Isn't moral politics an oxymoron. Seriously though, it was an interesting test and I was about where I thought I would be.
- DrDirt, Moral Politics (2005)
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