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The W - Pro Wrestling - Can ya diggit, suckaaaaaa? (Page 3)
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Venom
Boudin rouge








Since: 15.1.03

Since last post: 2515 days
Last activity: 2486 days
#41 Posted on

    Originally posted by DirtyMikeSeaver
    I don't think Booker should get the title at WM. As much as it's boring to have HHH as champ, they need to build the Evolution group into something more than bumbling idiots and having their "leader" lose at the biggest show of the year can't help matters. What's more important (for both) is for them to have a great match and steal the show. Having a great match is something they can build on for later PPV's and actually makes fans look forward to the next time they wrestle. If they churn out a 4 or 5 star match and HHH escape by the skin of his teeth, I'm cool with that.


Triple H has had every oppourtuniy to draw, and he's failed. They hyped the shit out of his return, had him "retire" Stephanie, put him over Jericho, RVD, Kane, Booker T, they brought back HBK for him to beat up, they gave him Flair as his manager, fed Steiner to him, gave him two lackeys...and it's bombed. You can make all the excuses in the world about how good he used to be, or he's still good, or whatever, the ratings reflect the story that Hunter isn't what people want to see right now. He doesn't need a 15th chance here. They need to try someone else out in the World Champion role, and push them convincingly. People are sick of watching Hunter "escape by the skin of his teeth." He's done it in every fued he's had since Summerslam, and the people aren't buying it.

The whole "Booker isn't over enough yet" is a MacMahonized self-fullfilling prophecy. He's not over, so we can't push him so that he'll get over, so he's not over...




DUFFMAN...CAN'T BREATHE!!!
DirtyMikeSeaver
Boudin rouge








Since: 19.5.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 3 days
#42 Posted on

    Originally posted by Venom

      Originally posted by DirtyMikeSeaver
      I don't think Booker should get the title at WM. As much as it's boring to have HHH as champ, they need to build the Evolution group into something more than bumbling idiots and having their "leader" lose at the biggest show of the year can't help matters. What's more important (for both) is for them to have a great match and steal the show. Having a great match is something they can build on for later PPV's and actually makes fans look forward to the next time they wrestle. If they churn out a 4 or 5 star match and HHH escape by the skin of his teeth, I'm cool with that.


    Triple H has had every oppourtuniy to draw, and he's failed. They hyped the shit out of his return, had him "retire" Stephanie, put him over Jericho, RVD, Kane, Booker T, they brought back HBK for him to beat up, they gave him Flair as his manager, fed Steiner to him, gave him two lackeys...and it's bombed. You can make all the excuses in the world about how good he used to be, or he's still good, or whatever, the ratings reflect the story that Hunter isn't what people want to see right now. He doesn't need a 15th chance here. They need to try someone else out in the World Champion role, and push them convincingly. People are sick of watching Hunter "escape by the skin of his teeth." He's done it in every fued he's had since Summerslam, and the people aren't buying it.

    The whole "Booker isn't over enough yet" is a MacMahonized self-fullfilling prophecy. He's not over, so we can't push him so that he'll get over, so he's not over...




Hey, I'll be the first to deem the Triple H World Title experiment as a dud, but taking the title off him at WM and giving it to Booker now might not be the best reason for 3 reasons:

1. The belt is really devalued. Two weeks after Summerslam, the belt was handed to HHH. He then defended it in a forgetable feud with RVD and (I wish) a REALLY forgetable feud with Kane. He then lost it to part-time wrestler at Survivor Series, and won it back in a match a month later with was probably 20 minutes too long. Since then, Scott Steiner (nuff said). Compare that with Lesnar's and Angle's run, where there was a brutal Hell in the Cell match, a classic 5 star match at Royal Rumble and a tremendous build to WM to make the fans really want to see Lesnar/Angle. The belt needs to be associated with great wrestling matches more than switching it off again to a guy who's been portrayed as a midcarder for the past couple of months, which brings me to my next point.

2. They need to get Booker more over as a legit threat. A lot of people like Booker, but let's face it, for the most part, he's been a comedy figure over the last calender year. A year ago, he was fighting over a shampoo comercial and embarrasing himself on the "Weakest Link". Heck, a couple of months ago, he was fighting for the tag belts and losing to Rosey and Jamal. I rather see this as a slow build and the beginning of something that can carry over 3 or 4 PPVs. Having Booker put up a hell of an effort (hell, have him kick out of the Pedigree) will do wonders for him. They should go for the Angle/Benoit thing, where at the end, everyone applauds Booker for a great effort and they WANT to see him win the next time out.

3. This match will, at best, be the 4th most important match on the card (Rock/Austin, Angle/Lesnar, Hogan/McMahon). If he wins, I'd rather see it on the main event of another PPV (Backlash, King of the Ring) to give it a special/main event feel.



By the way, Storm's gimmick includes 1.) telling the audience to shut up, and 2.) occasionally making everyone stand for the Canadian national anthem. You know they don't know what to do with a wrestler when he's making fans stand for a national anthem. It's like waving a white flag and saying, "This guy has no personality -- we give up."

ESPN's Bill Simmons
The Vile1
Lap cheong








Since: 4.9.02
From: California

Since last post: 1923 days
Last activity: 1655 days
#43 Posted on
you know DirtyMikeSeaver, Booker T did win 2 matches last night, one of which involved a 20 man battle royal where he eliminated THE ROCK. He also pinned HHH in a tag team match the week before. He's the number one contender, he's one of the most over wrestlers on the RAW roster, so he IS a legit threat, even if its for a bogus title. He's a way more legitimate choice to be a world champion and give the stupid bogus title some value. You yourself admit that HHH's title reign is a dud, so its time to try something different.



"I am many things Kal-El, but here I am god."
-Darkseid
Venom
Boudin rouge








Since: 15.1.03

Since last post: 2515 days
Last activity: 2486 days
#44 Posted on
DirtyMike> You're living in a pipe dream.

As for slow build theory: Steiner kicked out of a pedigree and put up one hell of a fight against Triple H. Did it work for him? What about HBK? He got to beat Hunter CLEAN! TWICE! RVD? Kane? I get the impression you want to use the exact same formula that turned those guys into mega-stars on Booker. Exactly what is going to make it work this time? Will Hunter have an epiphany and suddenly wake up from his depotistic rule? After Triple H has completely ruled the babyface roster on RAW for the past 8 months, are you willing to take the chance that Booker jobbing to him again will do any good? See, in order for Booker to get over, they have to PUT HIM OVER. Jobbing to Hunter 4 months in a row will not do that, no matter how many beltshots, Pedigree kick-outs, and ether soaked rags you put in there. Also, Stone Cold Steve Austin vs. The Rock could not headline three PPV's in a row in 1998 or 99, and they're the biggest names ever. The WWE has gotta pull the trigger on a push at some point. They've been twiddling their thumbs and rationalizing Hunter out of their asses for 8 months now, and they've just run out of excuses.

Again, you're using the "Booker's not over, so we can't push him to get him over, so Booker's not over..." circular logic.




DUFFMAN...CAN'T BREATHE!!!
dMp
Banger








Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 14 hours
#45 Posted on
For the longest time people bitched that BOoker T should get a shot and now that he gets it, he isn't over and they aren't building this right?

He is after the Evolution because they fried his buddy, and to beat the Evolution you gotta beat H.

They have 4 raws i believe before WM?
That means for four weeks Evolution can attack him, screw him, humiliate him, and what not..
The feud might not >center< around the belt but the fact remains that it will be for the belt.

As for this making the Evolution stable not look like a threat? Hmm..they can easily be made to look like a threat by taking out several midcarders post-WM..
All it takes is some decent writing, and recently they have been able to do that.

As for opponents for Book after WM?
Jericho is always near a title shot
Steiner can turn heel
Rock
RVD or Kane could turn heel




SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 7 hours
AIM:  
#46 Posted on
    Originally posted by DirtyMikeSeaver
    I don't think Booker should get the title at WM. As much as it's boring to have HHH as champ, they need to build the Evolution group into something more than bumbling idiots and having their "leader" lose at the biggest show of the year can't help matters. What's more important (for both) is for them to have a great match and steal the show. Having a great match is something they can build on for later PPV's and actually makes fans look forward to the next time they wrestle. If they churn out a 4 or 5 star match and HHH escape by the skin of his teeth, I'm cool with that.


This is a matter of differing philosophies, but a great match does nothing if the result doesn't change anything in the storylines. Benoit & Angle just had a great series together, but all it really did was fill time until the big Angle/Lesnar match. Nothing of significance happened. Benoit/Angle, under the same circumstances, is going to have a hard time drawing again, because their matches changed nothing about their characters. For that match to draw again, something has to happen (Benoit being the champ, for instance) to regain interest.

If HHH wins and has a great match with Booker T, it still hurts the company. If this match is even going to be any good, it's most likely going to be due to Booker T's work, so if we're basing the decision of the match on workrate alone, Booker T should win so he can have great World Title matches with others in the few weeks he'll have as champ. HHH has had enough time with that belt and he has not been the strong heel champ he wishes he was.

If the Evolution should ever become a great heel group, they need time to develop, that's true. However, when you start up your big heel group less than two months heading into the biggest PPV of the year, that's just simply poor planning, and it's not worth sacrificing the moment you could be putting over a new main eventer.

As I've stated earlier in this thread, HHH is hardly as over as he should be heading into this match, but that's his fault for being a piece of crap for the last year. More effort shouldn't be given to get him over. The same goes for his heel group that was created as a last-ditch effort to get him over heading into WM.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 26.2.03 0520)
Devil's Advocate
Haggis








Since: 22.2.03
From: North Carolina

Since last post: 3391 days
Last activity: 3147 days
#47 Posted on

    Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID
    Last night, Rock made himself the #1 heel on RAW and, as Scott Keith (*UGH*) pointed out, he did it without squashing anyone and made people buy into his character. In the end, he let Booker T get one over on him and gave him some momentum heading into WM. He even managed to salvage the Hurricaine's character earlier in the evening. He carried the damn show and HHH was nowhere to be seen. That's how things should be done and it just goes to show that WWE really is better off without HHH in any on-screen capacity.


>sigh< I'll keep this short since it's off topic.

Let's compare last monday's RAW with the RAW where HHH established himself as #1 heel (the RAW where he was handed the World title)-

1. Lengthy opening promo: Check
2. Verbally punked out by lowly mid-carder(Buh-Buh Ray): Check
3. Job to Upper Mid-Carder(RVD): Check
GRL
Frankfurter








Since: 13.7.02
From: Austin

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 17 hours
#48 Posted on
4. Do it all in an entertaining fashion: Che-woah, not so fast.

(edited by GRL on 26.2.03 0926)
DirtyMikeSeaver
Boudin rouge








Since: 19.5.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 3 days
#49 Posted on
The problem with Steiner was that he's a terrible wrestler. They did the right thing with him and if he could do it in the ring, the feud would have worked beautifully, but once people saw him for what he was in the ring at Royal Rumble, it all fell apart. As for Michaels, well, considering everyone saw him as a part-time wreslter and a shadow of what he once was, there was no hope.

Listen, I see everyone's point about HHH. The thing is, I think there's good money in a HHH/Booker feud. There's a way to really build up BOTH guys and have a good feud for the next couple of months.

Let's say that they wrestle a hell of a match at WM. HHH throws everything at him and Booker gives it back in spades. Have Ross and Lawler really sell the fact that Booker is more than a match for HHH. HHH wins, barely, and Ross says that HHH got very lucky. The next night, Booker comes out and wants his rematch. HHH comes out and makes it clear that he got once chance and only once chance. Then you have announcers, even other wrestles confront HHH about being scared of Booker and that he knows, deep down, he can't beat him again. HHH does everything possible to duck Booker, while all the while, Booker accumulates wins and seems stronger in the fans eyes. Finally, HHH relents and gives him a title shot only if he runs the gauntlet of Evolution. The next PPV, he does it, getting to HHH, where he has him, then Flair or someone else runs in for the DQ. The next night, HHH once again says no more chances, while everyone knows now that HHH can't beat him again and that Booker should be the champ. Booker comes out and demands another rematch, putting his career on the line. HHH accepts, they wrestle at King or the Ring, Booker wins.

The point is, you got 3 PPVs filled, a decent storyline, Booker looks stronger and heck even HHH can look strong (got a clean win at the biggest show of the year, can chase Booker after King of the Ring).



By the way, Storm's gimmick includes 1.) telling the audience to shut up, and 2.) occasionally making everyone stand for the Canadian national anthem. You know they don't know what to do with a wrestler when he's making fans stand for a national anthem. It's like waving a white flag and saying, "This guy has no personality -- we give up."

ESPN's Bill Simmons
Net Hack Slasher
Banger








Since: 6.1.02
From: Outer reaches of your mind

Since last post: 3500 days
Last activity: 1920 days
#50 Posted on

    Originally posted by DirtyMikeSeaver
    The point is, you got 3 PPVs filled, a decent storyline, Booker looks stronger and heck even HHH can look strong (got a clean win at the biggest show of the year, can chase Booker after King of the Ring).


Unless one of HHH body parts falls off first.

Booker T needs to win on at WrestleMania, if not he looks like just another mid-carder who can't even defeat a limping gimpy HHH. I don't care how you portray it, with chair shots, interference, low blows. The bottom line is that another guy can't beat an obviously injured HHH.

Jebus a 3 month feud with HHH. Do you want Booker to be as over as Red-dog when you finally do decide to put the title on him. One of the major things I've noticed this past year is that any man who feuds with HHH becomes LESS over then going in, RVD, Kane, Bubba, Jericho, Steiner. You might not be a fan of some of these guys, but it can't be just all of their fault or coincidence that ever single one of them had a bucket of cold water on their heat whenever they feuded with the HHH... Might be a blessing in disguise to have a short build up with Booker and HHH.

And what on earth has HHH shown you this year that would make you think he can pull of 3 (or more) big time matches with the same person. HHH drop off in wrestling ability and his lack of variation in style is so stale that I think it's impossible for him to be able to pull a multiple Big Match feud with anyone... Hell even in his repeat match with Michaels, it was full of gimmickry and I thought it still didn't save it.

Someone here mentioned HHH and Angle in the same breath, on how to do this feud. One problem Angle is special, there is nothing special about HHH anymore. Most who face Angle, from Benoit to Edge to Mysterio, seems to gain popularity and become better off, while the opposite is true for HHH nemesis... Angle can do 6 matches with someone and make each match distinct and special. HHH hasn't have had 6 good matches since her return. Period.

They need a change NOW. No more stalling, no more excuses. I'm not even Bookers biggest fan, but we need a new start, give the belt to Book and have HHH demoted and no where in the title picture for at least this calendar year (I know pipe dream). And lets try to move on from the ugliness that started WrestleMania X8






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