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The W - Current Events & Politics - California Primary Debate
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Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Click Here (story.news.yahoo.com)

What a farce. The only highlight was seeing Ariana Huffington get outwitted by, of all people, Schwarzenegger.



"When this bogus term alternative rock was being thrown at every '70s retro rehash folk group, we were challenging people to new sonic ideas. If some little snotty anarchist with an Apple Mac and an attitude thinks he invented dance music and the big rock group is coming into his territory, [that's] ridiculous." - Bono, 1997
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CRZ
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Since: 9.12.01
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.65
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    What a farce.
Wow...did we watch the same debate?

Survey USA's instant poll had Arnold as the big winner...

Schwarzenegger 32
No Winner 22
McClintock 22
Bustamante 13
Camejo 6
Huffington 4
Not Sure 1
(Margin of error: ±4.3%)

Of course, Schwarzenegger ALSO took second place in the "Who did the worst?" poll, so I think we can officially proclaim him a polarizing candidate...

It's a good read - fortunately, KABC-TV (abclocal.go.com) was good enough to put the entire 18 pages of poll results online.

Of course, Survey USA still has the only poll that has Schwarzenegger ahead of Bustamante...not that you'd hear about it in the press. ;-) Hmm, that reminds me to go update that OTHER thread...



CRZ
Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
The 10 minutes I watched after turning off the West Wing made me think it should have been held in the elimination chamber. Yikes, were they at each other.

Interesting that Huffington is bitching about how Arnold treats women, when women overwhelmingly thought she did the worst(37 for her, 20 for Arnold in a distant 2nd).

From the looks of it, McClintock came out like a bandit in this too. That's a problem for the GOP if they were intending on shooing him out of the race.



DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.69
I think McClintock came out as the more technical, polished, "excellence of execution" tag team partner compared to the brutish, swipe-attacking Arnold. It was good to see them working together at times though.

Does anyone think McClintock would take a Lt. Governor position in Schwarzenegger's administration?

Bustamante to me came off as very smug and condescending. Of course that's often what liberals do to conservatives: make them feel like idiots when *they* are the ones who don't have their facts straight or have the truth on their side. Sophism at its best.

DMC

(edited by DMC on 25.9.03 1738)


"How about Professor Coynes concern that, if one system were shown to be the result of natural selection, proponents of ID could just claim that some other system was designed? I think the objection has little force. If natural selection were shown to be capable of producing a system of a certain degree of complexity, then the assumption would be that it could produce any other system of an equal or lesser degree of complexity. If Coyne demonstrated that the flagellum (which requires approximately forty gene products) could be produced by selection, I would be rather foolish to then assert that the blood clotting system (which consists of about twenty proteins) required intelligent design." -Michael Behe, www.arn.org
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.17
    Originally posted by DMC
    Of course that's often what liberals do to conservatives: make them feel like idiots when *they* are the ones who don't have their facts straight or have the truth on their side. Sophism at its best.

    DMC

Of course, if I wanted to engage in the game of stereotyping the other side of the fence my response here would be "As opposed of course to the traditional conservative response whenever they are opposed by a liberal which is to immediately question the liberal's patriotism and/or moral character?" But I try not to engage in that sort of blatant demagoguery if I can help it





Coming to Chicago Nov. 12...I am SO there! - Brenda Weiler

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PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by DMC
    I think McClintock came out as the more technical, polished, "excellence of execution" tag team partner compared to the brutish, swipe-attacking Arnold. It would good to see them working together at times though.

    Does anyone think McClintock would take a Lt. Governor position in Schwarzenegger's administration?

    Bustamante to me came off as very smug and condescending. Of course that's often what liberals do to conservatives: make them feel like idiots when *they* are the ones who don't have their facts straight or have the truth on their side. Sophism at its best.

    DMC


I believe Bustamante gets to stay in office regardless of the outcome here. Anyone more knowledgeable can feel free to correct me, of course.

And as a side note for spf, can you cite an instance of someone's patriotism being questioned? To me it just seems like a cheap dodge. Easier to say "How dare you question my patriotism!" than it is to explain why you're soft on national security.

(edited by PalpatineW on 25.9.03 1313)


Johnny Cash
1932-2003
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.17
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    And as a side note for spf, can you cite an instance of someone's patriotism being questioned? To me it just seems like a cheap dodge. Easier to say "How dare you question my patriotism!" than it is to explain why you're soft on national security.

    (edited by PalpatineW on 25.9.03 1313)

I'd assume you'd want something more concrete than my own personal anecdotes of being told I "hate America", "want to go fuck my butt-buddy Saddam" and "it's a shame people like you weren't the ones blown up in 9/11" during my time protesting the war in Iraq. So instead I'll just point out that if you google the phrase "Go live in Iraq" which was one of the more common responses I (and the Dixie Chicks I'm sure) heard during the lead up to the action in Iraq, you'll find over 700 responses.

And Palp, I'm still waiting for someone to adequately explain why not wanting to invade and take control of Iraq, a nation which is more and more looking to have been totally devoid of bite to go with it's bark, makes me and others "soft on national security." Personally, I think we could get a better return on our investment for national security with the $87 bln (and some estimates saying we could reach $400 bln over time) we're spending in Iraq by shoring up internal defenses. The relative ease and openness with which you can ship anything through our nation's intermodal transport system scares me more than anything we're likely to find in Iraq.



Coming to Chicago Nov. 12...I am SO there! - Brenda Weiler

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PalpatineW
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Your anecdotal evidence doesn't carry much weight, here. We can find anecdotal evidence of anything. I'm talking about legitimate, respectable people, not the rantings of rednecks or campus marxists.

And I hear you, on the Iraq thing. Our borders are dangerously porous. The issue of cargo ships is one that has been brought up for years, and nothing has yet to be done about it (though I have read reports of massive radiation detectors to be installed in the near future). I'm going to blame the border situation on the left, though. (Didn't ya know that was coming?) I mean, if you can't deny drivers licenses to illegals, how are you going to close the borders? If the former is racist, the latter must be near-genocidal.

As far as Iraq, I think that school of thought runs thusly: terror originates outside the United States, and terror will continue until we eradicate its origins. Now, whether that involves Iraq I leave as an exercise to the reader, but I, personally, think that trying to create a free, stable Middle Eastern country was, and is, a gamble worth taking. It was stated in another thread that the Middle East needs a renaissance; it does. Whatever faults our Western culture has, we've at least eradicated the kind of widespread fanaticism and lunacy that you see on the streets of Jerusalem every day.





Johnny Cash
1932-2003
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.77
Using her as an example is like shooting fish in a barrel, but a few quotes from Ann Coulter's "book" Slander (which I'm getting from Al Franken's book):

*"Liberals hate America".

*"Liberals hate all religions except Islam".

*"Democrats actually hate working-class people".

*"Liberals hate society"

*"Even Islamic terrorists don't hate America the way liberals do."

*"I don't recall liberals being this indignant about the 9/11 terrorist attacks." (in response to the Trent Lott controversy).



"The most important thing is for us to find Osama Bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until he find him."
-George W. Bush, September 13, 2001

"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
George W. Bush, March 13, 2002
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.17
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    Your anecdotal evidence doesn't carry much weight, here. We can find anecdotal evidence of anything. I'm talking about legitimate, respectable people, not the rantings of rednecks or campus marxists.

That is my exact point I was trying to make. The original quote by DMC that I responded to did not make any such distinction, merely painting liberals with an extremely wide brush. That's why I admitted what I said would be stereotyping in the hopes of making the point that I was doing so in respone to being stereotyped.

    Originally posted by Palp
    And I hear you, on the Iraq thing. Our borders are dangerously porous. The issue of cargo ships is one that has been brought up for years, and nothing has yet to be done about it (though I have read reports of massive radiation detectors to be installed in the near future). I'm going to blame the border situation on the left, though. (Didn't ya know that was coming?) I mean, if you can't deny drivers licenses to illegals, how are you going to close the borders? If the former is racist, the latter must be near-genocidal.

It's not just the borders that worry me. One could very easily interfere with the internal processes of our economy through the intermodal yards. There is no security whatsoever there. If you wanted to spread a slow acting chemical across the country, just buy space on one freighter, say you're shipping beanie babies, and boom, you're good. As for the illegals, I agree with you (SWERVE!) except that I lay blame on both sides of the aisle. Major business owners are often among the biggest tacit supporters of illegal immigrant rights since they provide such a wonderful supply of cheap labor for them. But to me the immigrant thing scares me far less than the shipping thing. There are enough terrorists either A) in this country already legally or B) able to get in through legal means the likes of which we can't feasibly cut off, that we could lock the borders tomorrow and still be 98% as vulnerable.

    Originally posted by Palp
    As far as Iraq, I think that school of thought runs thusly: terror originates outside the United States, and terror will continue until we eradicate its origins. Now, whether that involves Iraq I leave as an exercise to the reader, but I, personally, think that trying to create a free, stable Middle Eastern country was, and is, a gamble worth taking. It was stated in another thread that the Middle East needs a renaissance; it does. Whatever faults our Western culture has, we've at least eradicated the kind of widespread fanaticism and lunacy that you see on the streets of Jerusalem every day.



I don't know that we've eliminated anything so much as been fortuitous enough to have a demographic makeup that makes keeping internal peace fairly easy. No group who would raise havoc has the numbers in the U.S. to ever wage any sort of intifada akin to what is happening in Israel. But be that as it may, I think that the logic you're using here has a certain truth to it, but it is undercut by the actions that were taken in the lead-up to it. If this was about long-term stability, why such a chaotic rush to it involving pumped-up dossiers and grand claims of Iraq's WMD capabilities and the general urgency that we had to go in RIGHT NOW? It makes it hard to trust the effort when the rationale that was given in the leadup seems to have been built on a willful deception of the American people in order to scare them into supporting a questionable military action. Again, going back to the return on investment theory, I can think of many places and ways that $87 bln could be spent overseas instead of having taken over Iraq in such a way that we will get stuck with all the bills for rebuilding it. We could have been bolstering Southeast Asian security forces to deal with the radical groups there. We could have put more cash into Afghanistan to try and accelerate that rebuilding process (which I think is far more crucial to American security than Iraq.) But since the Bush administration did not lay all the facts on the table, allowing for an honest discussion of the effacy of such a move, instead playing to the most primal fears people have about "delivering WMD in 45 minutes" we never got to fairly judge the action on its merits. And now we are stuck riding the tiger economically and politically for god knows how long.



Coming to Chicago Nov. 12...I am SO there! - Brenda Weiler

blogforamerica.com
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Back to the California debate....

When I called it a farce, I meant that this election has now literally become like a work of fiction, or maybe just Ashton Kutcher's attempt to punk an entire state. This debate was like watching that episode of the Simpsons where Homer runs for sanitation commissioner. I kept picturing McClintock saying "What button?" and "I'm two years older than you!"



"When this bogus term alternative rock was being thrown at every '70s retro rehash folk group, we were challenging people to new sonic ideas. If some little snotty anarchist with an Apple Mac and an attitude thinks he invented dance music and the big rock group is coming into his territory, [that's] ridiculous." - Bono, 1997
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3454 days
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.69
"That is my exact point I was trying to make. The original quote by DMC that I responded to did not make any such distinction, merely painting liberals with an extremely wide brush."

So I guess I'm a redneck then? For the record, I said that being smug is what liberals *often* do, not always do. So I did attempt some type of qualification. I was simply making a generalization based on evidence and/or my experience, which as far as I'm concerned is fair game.

DMC



"How about Professor Coynes concern that, if one system were shown to be the result of natural selection, proponents of ID could just claim that some other system was designed? I think the objection has little force. If natural selection were shown to be capable of producing a system of a certain degree of complexity, then the assumption would be that it could produce any other system of an equal or lesser degree of complexity. If Coyne demonstrated that the flagellum (which requires approximately forty gene products) could be produced by selection, I would be rather foolish to then assert that the blood clotting system (which consists of about twenty proteins) required intelligent design." -Michael Behe, www.arn.org
CRZ
Big Brother
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Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.65
    Originally posted by DMC
    So I guess I'm a redneck then? For the record, I said that being smug is what liberals *often* do, not always do. So I did attempt some type of qualification. I was simply making a generalization based on evidence and/or my experience, which as far as I'm concerned is fair game.
Generalizations are totally unnecessary here. I believe I have attemped to make this clear before. Also...
    Originally posted by DMC
    Does anyone think McClintock would take a Lt. Governor position in Schwarzenegger's administration?
Whoa. You're TEACHING?

Californians still elect their lieutenant governor... and Bustamante's term doesn't end until 2006.



CRZ
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.68
Whoa. You're perfect?

DMC



"How about Professor Coynes concern that, if one system were shown to be the result of natural selection, proponents of ID could just claim that some other system was designed? I think the objection has little force. If natural selection were shown to be capable of producing a system of a certain degree of complexity, then the assumption would be that it could produce any other system of an equal or lesser degree of complexity. If Coyne demonstrated that the flagellum (which requires approximately forty gene products) could be produced by selection, I would be rather foolish to then assert that the blood clotting system (which consists of about twenty proteins) required intelligent design." -Michael Behe, www.arn.org
CRZ
Big Brother
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Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.65
    Originally posted by DMC
    Whoa. You're perfect?
No. Does that make you any less wrong?

Let me make this perfectly clear to everybody here: if I EVER show any sort of profound level of ignorance, whether it's me asking something that could have been answered in five seconds and one Google search, or me saying something that's so profoundly incorrect that it boggles the mind that I would ever have said it, or me talking like I know about something when it's obvious to ANYONE with the knowledge that I'm doing a crappy job of pretending, &c. &c. &c. ... I hope to GOD I get called on it in public view, with great condescension, and find myself SO embarrassed at what I'd been lame enough to say that I smarten up and NEVER make that mistake again. I don't expect myself to be held to any lower standard than anybody else when it comes to making stupid, ignorant arguments that can't be backed up with the most basic of facts or logic.

Yeah, I can be an asshole, yeah, I can get impatient, yeah, this is only a message board and where do I get off being some kind of evil dictator....actually, there's no point there. If you don't know the deal when you sign on, I'm always happy to let you know soon enough. The next move is yours.



CRZ
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3454 days
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.68
I have no problem with being told I am wrong. All I question is why someone has to be shown their "profound level of ignorance...with great condescension." Sheesh. I'm not a 11 year old wrestling fan, Chris. I made one mistake involving knowledge of state government. I fail to see how that makes me some type of wildly ignorant person who is trying to maliciously fool people into believing in me. If you strongly disagree with other opinions I've had on this board, then that's fine. But I don't think that merits your reply either.

I know the Zims have a hard time believing this, but someone *can* be told they are wrong about a fact without making fun of them. Yes, I know "the deal" when I sign on. Do I at least have a right to criticize it?

DMC



"How about Professor Coynes concern that, if one system were shown to be the result of natural selection, proponents of ID could just claim that some other system was designed? I think the objection has little force. If natural selection were shown to be capable of producing a system of a certain degree of complexity, then the assumption would be that it could produce any other system of an equal or lesser degree of complexity. If Coyne demonstrated that the flagellum (which requires approximately forty gene products) could be produced by selection, I would be rather foolish to then assert that the blood clotting system (which consists of about twenty proteins) required intelligent design." -Michael Behe, www.arn.org
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