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The W - Current Events & Politics - Bush uses first veto on stem-cell research (Page 3)
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Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.81
OK. Here's my concession. I'm doing a very poor job of explaining how I feel about this. I'm going to write a long post to hopefully explain my position better. Just give me a little bit of time to finish it.

//edit: Nevermind, I can't do it without it seeming like I'm trolling.

(edited by Guru Zim on 21.7.06 1533)


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ekedolphin
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

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#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.29
The embryos are going to be destroyed anyway. Destroyed. Tossed into a garbage can. If that's going to happen anyway, why not take advantage of the resources we have, and use the stem-cells towards finding cures for Alzheimer's, diabetes and God knows what else? These embryos are never going to become real, walking, talking, living people. They're gonna end up in a landfill. If stem-cell research can save the lives, or at least ease the suffering, of people who are real, walking, talking people right now, I say go for it.

The question of whether life begins at conception, in my opinion, is irrelevant in this case, as once again-- the embryos are going to be destroyed, anyway. These aren't the same embryos that end up on surrogate-motherhood programs. It ought to be fully federally-funded, and we need to stop beating around the bush about "We're trying our best to find cures to the diseases that plague our society" when clearly, President Bush, in any event, isn't.

(edited by ekedolphin on 21.7.06 2352)


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MoeGates
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Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.35
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    In my mind, the only time a government has the right to be the arbiter of life and death for a human is:

    a criminal - governments have traditionally held the right to execute criminals who violate some extreme measure of said country's laws. This level of criminality ebbs and flows throughout history and culture, but is still one responsibility that the government holds - at least ours does, and most countries still have the death penalty - or could, according to their rule of law. Of course, a few countries have now outlawed it, but that is still the by-far minority.



You're way behind the times. 87 couintries have completely and totally outlawed the death penalty, and the majority of countries in the world have outlawed the death penalty for all practical purposes.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-countries-eng

The United States and Japan remain the only two developed, democratic countries to retain the death penalty.

    Originally posted by Corajudo

    So, while I oppose the use of embryos in scientific research, if someone were to ask me what to do with the 400,000 frozen embryos, I couldn't answer it right now.


Two words: CLONE ARMY

(edited by MoeGates on 22.7.06 0049)


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Since: 14.5.04
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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.79
    Originally posted by ekedolphin
    The embryos are going to be destroyed anyway. Destroyed. Tossed into a garbage can. If that's going to happen anyway, why not take advantage of the resources we have, and use the stem-cells towards finding cures for Alzheimer's, diabetes and God knows what else? These embryos are never going to become real, walking, talking, living people. They're gonna end up in a landfill. If stem-cell research can save the lives, or at least ease the suffering, of people who are real, walking, talking people right now, I say go for it.

    The question of whether life begins at conception, in my opinion, is irrelevant in this case, as once again-- the embryos are going to be destroyed, anyway. These aren't the same embryos that end up on surrogate-motherhood programs. It ought to be fully federally-funded, and we need to stop beating around the bush about "We're trying our best to find cures to the diseases that plague our society" when clearly, President Bush, in any event, isn't.

    (edited by ekedolphin on 21.7.06 2352)


yup, I cant put it clearer than that.

Furthermore, whether you agree or not- stem cell research will come to pass, and it will eventually become a regular part of medicinal science. For, research will not just be conducted in America but in Japan and other places, and once its uses are evident- who will withhold it from the American citizens who need it? Yea, I know its very Ms. Cleo of me but thats what I see.

As for the whole soul argument... if it WAS relevant;
What is a soul? Is a soul comprised of our thoughts, our emotions, our memories, our will, our intent? An embryo has none of these. Just food for thought.



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AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.66
    Originally posted by WhoTookMyHonor?
    Furthermore, whether you agree or not- stem cell research will come to pass, and it will eventually become a regular part of medicinal science.
    For, research will not just be conducted in America but in Japan and other places, and once its uses are evident- who will withhold it from the American citizens who need it?


#1 - First, let's all guess. Which country has the largest Embryonic Stem Cell Research budget?

Correct. It's just not getting any larger. And I think there's clearly some question as to its actual potential.

But again, this does not stop privately funded research. If this is your passion, open those wallets and pocketbooks.

    Originally posted by WhoTookMyHonor?

    As for the whole soul argument... if it WAS relevant;
    What is a soul? Is a soul comprised of our thoughts, our emotions, our memories, our will, our intent? An embryo has none of these. Just food for thought.


That's your opinion on that matter. If a soul exists (and, while I believe it does, I think there's clearly room for doubt), then when does it attach to the embryo? At Birth? I have no memories of that. Intent? I had no intent at birth, except to eat and crap, I guess. Will? Mommy had to change me, so I am guessing my will was not there. A week later? A week before birth? Some other time?

There's only one time you can measure when a radical biological/DNA type change occurs during the fertilization, Birth, Death cycle. When the Egg is fertilized by the sperm and the new cell divided, having 46 Chromosomes, where milliseconds before it was two or more separate cells, each with 23. That is, so to speak, a new creature at that point. There is no change, geneologically speaking, until you die. That's why defects can be located so early, and often repaired in this wonderful time. Sadly, of course, not all those defects have been repaired. Again, I am hopeful for Stem Cell Research (wonderful things are happening with Adult Cell research too, research that does not require someone to die), but there have been medical miracles in the past that were touted as wonderful, but were later found to be not so great, or in some cases, kind of bad.

Does it need help to live? Sure. Same way a 1 year old does (I am a tough old bird, but I didn't move out of the house til I was almost 2) and the same way most Octogenarians do.



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Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

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#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.73
    Originally posted by spf
    And I'm sorry, but any scientific argument that involves the concept of a soul falls flat. Show me a soul and we'll talk. Until then, I'm just not able to accept such an argument. That's why AWA's argument is more persuasive for me, because it doesn't get into supernatural concepts like the soul. He states when he believes a human being becomes a human being, and goes from there.

In all fairness, Guru brought the soul into the discussion, but he only brought it in to argue in favor of embryonic stem cell research. The point of my response is that the relevant issue is human life, not the soul. For largely the same reasons AWA listed, I believe that human life begins at conception. And, none of those reasons require the assumption of the existence of a soul, as you rightly pointed out.

    Originally posted by ekedolphin
    The embryos are going to be destroyed anyway. Destroyed. Tossed into a garbage can. If that's going to happen anyway, why not take advantage of the resources we have, and use the stem-cells towards finding cures for Alzheimer's, diabetes and God knows what else? These embryos are never going to become real, walking, talking, living people. They're gonna end up in a landfill. If stem-cell research can save the lives, or at least ease the suffering, of people who are real, walking, talking people right now, I say go for it.

I don't have the solution, but I find this type of utilitarian solution ethically troubling. By the same rationale, you could argue in favor of nonconsential research on terminal patients or very old people suffering from dementia or Alzeimers or a similar disease. I think one important measure of the idea of being civilized is how we treat those who cannot defend themselves.

Moreoever, on the benefit side, stem cell research offers absolutely no guarantees, only speculation. And, adult stem cell research could also yield cures to this same type of research, absent the ethical concerns. But, no one complained when Congress voted down federal funding for adult stem cell research.



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DrDirt
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Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.02
Maybe I missed it but I am curious. What are these frozen embryos under the law? Are they property (which would bother me)?

Morally I am not sure how to classify them. I guess my trouble is that unlike many, I can't see this as black/white but shaded in gray. I envy those of you on both sides who know with certainty because I don't.



Perception is reality
AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.69
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    Maybe I missed it but I am curious. What are these frozen embryos under the law? Are they property (which would bother me)?


That's a state's rights Issue at present (And I hope it stays that way).

a decent CNN story on the subject - a little charged, but ok
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/02/23/colb.embryos/index.html

Here's a much more slanted article from the Boston Globe (refering to folks like me as " part of a thinly disguised antichoice agenda and an all-out cultural war on modern reproductive medicine, stem cell research, and personal choice." Uh HUH. Now I know where I stand. But they do say that aproximately 88% of frozen embryos are under the complete control of the "patients who created them". Ah, Language.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/12/04/how_do_you_adopt_a_frozen_egg/

If you want to be a person as an Embryo, apprently, you have to move to Louisiana.

(edited by AWArulz on 25.7.06 1256)


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Since: 2.1.02
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#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.57
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by DrDirt
      Maybe I missed it but I am curious. What are these frozen embryos under the law? Are they property (which would bother me)?


    That's a state's rights Issue at present (And I hope it stays that way).

    a decent CNN story on the subject - a little charged, but ok
    http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/02/23/colb.embryos/index.html

    Here's a much more slanted article from the Boston Globe (refering to folks like me as " part of a thinly disguised antichoice agenda and an all-out cultural war on modern reproductive medicine, stem cell research, and personal choice." Uh HUH. Now I know where I stand. But they do say that aproximately 88% of frozen embryos are under the complete control of the "patients who created them". Ah, Language.

    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/12/04/how_do_you_adopt_a_frozen_egg/

    If you want to be a person as an Embryo, apprently, you have to move to Louisiana.

    (edited by AWArulz on 25.7.06 1256)

I'm curious as to why if you truly believe that people are being murdered in the creation and eventual destruction of these embryos why you would leave something that fundamental to be dealt with in a patchwork state-level manner. At the very least it would seem like if the embryo is truly a person that their due process rights under the law are being violated if the embryo is destroyed without embryonic consent.



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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.69
    Originally posted by spf
    I'm curious as to why if you truly believe that people are being murdered in the creation and eventual destruction of these embryos why you would leave something that fundamental to be dealt with in a patchwork state-level manner. At the very least it would seem like if the embryo is truly a person that their due process rights under the law are being violated if the embryo is destroyed without embryonic consent.


Murder laws are also up to the states, as are most other crimes. While murder is a crime in all of the several states, the listed punishment and penalties are different, even down to the possibilities for appeal. The classes of murder (1st degree, 2nd Degree, manslaughter) also differ slightly, as do classes like hate crimes. You probably know that the huge bulk of appeals on all convictions are procedural, not as to innocence or guilt anyway.

I want the federal government to do what they are constitutionally mandated to do and nothing else: ie: maintain a standing army for our defence, manage and regulate interstate commerce (which may involve some federal laws universal to all states), negotiate treaties with foreign and domestic sovereign nations, and, well, that's about it. The rest should be up to the states.

So, Murder is a crime in all states. But how it is handled is different. I would be more willing to have the Supreme Court declare that an Embryo is (or isn't) specifically subject to Ammendment 14, say. That might solve a lot of issues. (well, legally, anyway).

(edited by AWArulz on 25.7.06 1338)


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Since: 11.1.02
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#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.20
Thank God for that. I don't want to be accused of multible counts of genocide.




ExtremeLuchador
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Since: 8.6.02
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#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.62
The only people I know that are still fans of Bush are the religious folks. They are becoming one of the biggest voting blocks in the country and will continue to aid the Republicans.
CRZ
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Since: 9.12.01
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#53 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.13
    Originally posted by ExtremeLuchador
    The only people I know that are still fans of Bush are the religious folks. They are becoming one of the biggest voting blocks in the country and will continue to aid the Republicans.
Thanks for waiting six days to add completely nothing to this thread.



CRZ
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