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The W - Current Events & Politics - Bush plans to challenge program that gives preference to minority students (Page 3)
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scabby
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Since: 23.2.02
From: Toronto

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#41 Posted on
    Originally posted by DrOp
    PoolBoy said:

      If they are qualified to get in the school anyway, they do not need affirmitive action to get them in.



    And before AA, there were tons of qualified people who DIDN'T get in based on racial prejudicesand what not, which is why AA initiatives began and now you want to return to the system that could potentially allow the same thing to occur again?

    I'm speechless.

    DrOp--but then again...



The same thing is occuring again. In the past, there was discrimination against minorities due to race. What is being proposed is discrimination against another ethnic group on the basis of race in order to encourage a more diverse campus. The only difference is that now, the discrimination is mandated into the school's admission process.

I don't think that every black or hispanic student at university is not qualified to be there. There are thousands of people denied admission by schools each year who could have been fine students, but they were rejected because, based on merit, there were better applicants. If you start basing university acceptance on ethnicity, officially or not, it is discrimination regardless of which race is the victim.

It is beyond me how anybody can argue in favour of a university using race to judge applicants. I'm astonished that this is even a point of contention.

    Originally posted by Jaguar
    Okay, sorry. Here, let me say it better:

    Why do you seem to think that every minority student who is helped by affirmative action is less qualified to go to this school?



Please don't put words into my mouth. I simply presented a hypothetical situation that could happen if UM uses this system to admit students. That does not make me some bigot who believes every minority is unqualified to attend university.



(edited by scabby on 17.1.03 1308)

(edited by scabby on 17.1.03 1310)

(edited by scabby on 17.1.03 1327)



Pool-Boy
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Since: 1.8.02
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#42 Posted on
Before there was Affirmative Action, there was also no rules pertaining to the asking of what race an applicant is. Today, you do not have to answer any race questions on applications, and admissions are purely mathematical (if you meet certain requirements, you are in, period). To even suggest that if a school stopped with racist practice of AA, and began to admit people SOLELY on ability, they will immediatly begin excluding blacks is fearmongering, I am sorry.
30 years ago? Maybe. In this day and age? No way in hell. Universities are far too liberal of institutions to even think about going that way in the first place.
Have you ever heard the term that "A Person is Smart, but People are dumb?" It is a fact that group behavior often widley differs from a normal individuals. Today, A Person can be racist. But People are not. The fact is that Institutional Racism towards people of color is practically nonexistant in this country today (with the exception of the horridly racist policy of Affirmative Action). Yeah, there are some yahoo freaks in the back woods who still think it is a good idea to burn crosses, just like there are some Black Panther thugs out there who think it is a great idea to beat down whitey.
This is the real world. Slavery is nonexistant in this country. It is illegal to discriminate based on race, sex, religion, or whatever. There is no reason to keep pretending that racism is running rampant in this country- it is counter productive and actually creates MORE racism.
Yes, there are going to be people who still harbor racist ideas. These people are SCORNED and HATED by this society. They are the ultimate in villiany. As well they should be.
If there is one thing I cannot stand, it is the victimology that is practiced by many modern civil-rights groups. If you START with the mindset that blacks are victims, you are automatically placing them, by definition, in a subordinate category.
How about starting with the assumption that there is racism in the world (along with a lot of other garbage in the world that everyone has to deal with), but the tools are there for ANYONE, regardless of race, to succeed in this world. All you have to do is work for it. Work hard. Instead, the Mantra is that people of color are disadvantaged, and the government must coddle them. If you ask me, the black community needs a change in leadership, with some new ideas that are NOT rooted in the past. But that is just me.

Edit- And I was under the impression that the whole civil rights movement was designed so that this country would evolve beyond the NEED for programs like AA, not to implement them far beyond their needed years...


(edited by Pool-Boy on 17.1.03 1318)

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Since: 2.1.02

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#43 Posted on
There is no reason to keep pretending that racism is running rampant in this country

You have no clue what you're talking about.

I'm under the very real impression that we aren't quite there yet. But why ask people who experience it when those who feel slapped on the back end can tell us when we've achieved enough.

I'm dropping my participation in the discussion since, like all political arguments, people's opinons rarely change. That and AA ain't going anywhere.

DrOp--not a victim.



(edited by DrOp on 17.1.03 1719)


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Since: 2.1.02
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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
DrOp, while I respect you and your perspective on this as a minority and thus potentially affected by AA practices, you are dodging the issue ferociously. Your defense of AA is, basically, "if left alone, white Americans will be racists." And I say that's an unfortunate side effect of freedom; some people will abuse it and be assholes. And, furthermore, AA, as practiced at UM, IS racist. Until you can tell me why one's skin color is worth 20 points, and why that isn't a racist practice, then you really haven't addressed the issue.

To summate, here's what dictionary.com says about discrimination:

1. The act of discriminating.
2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
3. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

Unless skin color is a form of merit, AA is racism.

But I don't think racism is, or would be, as prevalent as you believe. Imagine, for a minute, that given the chance Disney laid off all its black employees in favor of less qualified white employees. Instead of those black employees being out of work, I imagine they would go work for Six Flags and set to work burying Disney. As long as there is a crack, as long as racism isn't universal, then the free market itself will defeat it. When the LA Dogers integrated, it forced everyone else too. Imagine if they didn't? Imagine if, out of some disgusting racist conviction, every other team refused to hire blacks? The Dodgers would have won every series, with the likes of Robinson, Aaron and a host of others. Racism will only work in a competitive situation when there is collusion, and we simply don't have that kind of collusion today.

That being said, is the legacy of slavery and institutionalized racism still alive in this country? Sure it is. Not many black people come from money, because that chance was denied to their parents, grandparents, and so on. But does that mean we should deny college admission to more qualified white or Asian kids who are innocent in the matter? That doesn't fly, to me. And before you wring your hands again, you are of neccessity denying these people a chance. The college admissions process, ideally, has objective standards of academic accomplishment. If student A scores higher than student B in all those categories, he is by definition more qualified. If the inclusion of race as a factor in admissions leads to student B getting in then, yes, he is less-qualified than student A. Your defense that there are other asinine admissions practices (legacy admissions) doesn't work, either. That's like saying why prosecute rapists when there are murderers out there? Wrong is wrong, DrOp, and you can't excuse it by pointing out other wrongs.

Lastly, no one on the "conservative" side here has said minorities are unqualified or less qualified. It's the left on this issue that claims black and brown people can't get into school unless we award them special status.

(edited by CRZ on 18.1.03 1625)

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DMC
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Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

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#45 Posted on
I don't see how you can argue against the basics that Palp is laying out, but let me at least try for the sake of the argument. This may have already been presented in this thread, and I apologize if it has: The argument I've heard AA advocates fall back on is that we have to include people who are less qualified and from different backgrounds over others, because that is the only way that you can have a diverse and rich learning environment. Basically, since poorer and/or minority students have had different life experiences, we should give special favor to them so they can put their perspectives on issues and thus help enlighten all in an educational environment.

I'm not saying I buy this argument, but what do the non-AA people here have to say?

DMC



"It's too bad that all these things, can only happen in my dreams. Only in dreams, in beautiful dreams." -Roy Orbison
rockdotcom_2.0
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Since: 9.1.02
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#46 Posted on
Whats killing me in this argument is how I think people are misinterpeting "less qualified" as if AA is ensuring total morons are invading Harvard.

hers a scenario. Student A is a black high school student. He goes to a crappy inner city high school. He gets good grades in spite of the fact that his school is overrun with violence, and the facilities are substandard. theres a shortage of textbooks, computers are practicallyt nonexistant, some classes are taught in the Gym. But he perseveres and finishes top of his class. upon graduation he applies to Harvard.

Student B is a white private school student in an affluent suburb. He also gets good grades. His school is peaceful and has excellent facilities, state of the art technology with award winning teachers. He finishes top of his class also. He also applies to Harvard.


Now in reality Student A is less qualified to a school like Harvard, but hes a hard worker that did the best with what he had. If Harvard selects him over student B to create a more diverse environment at the school then is that wrong? Because thats what I see AA is intended as doing.








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Since: 9.12.01
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#47 Posted on

    Originally posted by rockdotcom_2.0
    Whats killing me in this argument is how I think people are misinterpeting "less qualified" as if AA is ensuring total morons are invading Harvard.

    hers a scenario. Student A is a black high school student. He goes to a crappy inner city high school. He gets good grades in spite of the fact that his school is overrun with violence, and the facilities are substandard. theres a shortage of textbooks, computers are practicallyt nonexistant, some classes are taught in the Gym. But he perseveres and finishes top of his class. upon graduation he applies to Harvard.

    Student B is a white private school student in an affluent suburb. He also gets good grades. His school is peaceful and has excellent facilities, state of the art technology with award winning teachers. He finishes top of his class also. He also applies to Harvard.


    Now in reality Student A is less qualified to a school like Harvard, but hes a hard worker that did the best with what he had. If Harvard selects him over student B to create a more diverse environment at the school then is that wrong? Because thats what I see AA is intended as doing.







Here's one problem with your scenario. You are assuming that only black people have to live in the inner city and deal with bad schools.

Here's another - you are assuming that black people don't live in the affluent neighborhoods where they have good schools and good books (your example here - I'm not stating how I feel about this comparison).

The problem is, relative to an african american student, the low income white student is being punished for his race by not being given the same advantage even though he is dealing with the same pressures . For the affluent students, the african american student would get an extra bonus for his race, even though he had the same opportunites as an asian american at the same school.

The only justification I can see for this is if you assume that all african americans are somehow being held down based on their race, and that their scores need to be inflated to account for this. The problem I have with doing this is that I don't feel that this is true. I think if you take average middle class white and black kids, who score identically, and who have been in the same schools, that you should really have to prove that there was some sort of racist component that caused the scores of the african americans to be lower than they should have before you start granting a pass based solely on skin color.

I personally believe that all people who achieve above a certain point where they have proven they are going to benefit from college should be allowed to enter a college somewhere. Furthermore, I feel that we should help all people of all races who do so against the odds. I just don't think that looking at someone's skin color is as guaranteed of a way to tell what odds someone may be facing today as it was back when AA was started. It was probably a safe enough bet that (minority == needed assistance) back then. The question is, are we still at that point where we have to assume that everyone is getting a worse deal based on race, or have we moved on to the point where we need to start refocusing these efforts towards a new metric - low income for example. I'm not saying that I want to punish middle class african americans for succeeding - I guess I'm just wondering why if they have moved up to the middle class, and their children have had equal schools and equal educational opportunities, why advocates of AA feel that they need assistance moving to the next level of education. If we assume that middle class white children can "make it" from there, why do we (as a society, backing AA) assume that middle class black children can't?



Your analogy is similar to:

"They already have cars that you can drive, why not blenders?"
"I can already write with my hands, why not my pancreas?"
"They already have beef that I can eat, why not granite?"

-- my new favorite quote from Slashdot comments.

MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.73
2 things that haven't been brought up:

#1 - in the U-M scenario, you get 20 points if you're from a low-income backround. You get 20 if you're Hispanic, African-American, or American Indian. You DON'T get 40 if you're both. You only get 20.

Therefor, poor, white, inner-city kids, or farm kids, or whoever, are not disadvantaged by this system. However, middle-class white kids are. It's more than obvious the main (only?) beneficiaries of this policy are middle- and upper-class Hispanics, African-Americans, and American Indians.

I wonder what the Cuban community has to say about this, as they're probably the community that benefits the most from this policy, but are also mostly Republicans.

#2 - this is the Law School admissions process, not undergrad. Now, I can buy that when it comes to Undergrad, there might be the whole "person A didn't have as many choices and advantages as person B" argument. In fact, I think it's the strongest case for doing things like guaranteeing the top 10% of all public high school classes admission. But for Grad School? By that time, the playing field has been leveled a lot more. I mean, person A and person B in this scenario have both gotten into the same college under A.A. So from this point on, the playing field should be level. So when applying to grad school, I find it somewhat wrong that person B should again get a preference.

An interesting thing would be to track which U-M Law School graduates pass the bar the first time by race. That would give a good measure of if A.A. is leveling the playing field, or is admitting less qualified people.



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Aphrodite, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Spider-Man, and Boston.
DrOp
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Since: 2.1.02

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#49 Posted on
What I'd like to see (and forgive me for repeating myself) is some sort of non-partisan detailed analysis that answers Guru's and MoeGates points.

Let's see if some group is gaining this huge atvantage or if the field is being leveled or what.

Guru's absolutely right when he says that middle class minoritites probably don't need assistance (and therefore shouldn't get it).

If we could guarantee equal and high quality public education for all, this AA issue might be moot.

Example: Antonio Freeman and I went to elementary school together. I transfered to another school because I was basically getting good grades and into trouble out of boredom. Free was a good student. My transfer to another school allowed me to get into a magnet middle school (Roland Park) that led to me getting in a magnet, advanced college prep high school (Poly), which led to Morehouse. No one from my original elementary school got in to Roland Park. No one. Are you telling me that Free or some of our other friends weren't good enough? That their "A"s and "B"s were different?

I'm probably rambling, but these issues are so intertwined IMO.


DrOp--sees everyone else's points. Really.




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rabidzebra
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Since: 23.6.02
From: Charleston SC

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#50 Posted on
"According to a study released today by professors at the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, resumes with white-sounding first names received 50 percent more responses than ones with black-sounding names. This study involved 5,000 resumes sent to want ads in Boston and Chicago. "
AA is still needed.



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CRZ
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Since: 9.12.01
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#51 Posted on

    Originally posted by rabidzebra
    "According to a study released today by professors at the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, resumes with white-sounding first names received 50 percent more responses than ones with black-sounding names. This study involved 5,000 resumes sent to want ads in Boston and Chicago. "
    AA is still needed.

Wow, way to stay on point.

Maybe you should have started another thread if you wanted to talk about this?



©CRZ™
PalpatineW
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
DrOp, you're making the argument of utility. I'm not saying good things don't come from AA, I'm saying it's wrong. After all, I could steal your car and then use it to bring meals to old people. Does that make it right for me to steal your car?



Damn your eyes!
ges7184
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Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

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#53 Posted on
On this topic, but in a different direction than this thread, does anyone else find it interesting that Colin Powell publicly disagreed with the President on this issue today. Also, Condi Rice, who says she supports the President (and is supposedly behind this whole thing), has said that it's OK to use race as one of the factors to enforce affirmative action, but other factors should be considered, too. Er, isn't that exactly what the Michigan system does? I'm sorry, but if the complaint is based on the number of points (ie, if they are just saying that 20 points is too many), that just doesn't hold Constitutionally. You can't make a Constitutional complaint on the number of points. It's either allowed or not.

And furthermore, one other black member of Bush's staff (and sorry, I can't remember his name) disagreed with BOTH Rice and Powell, and said race shouldn't be a factor at all!

Is it usual for Presidential staffs to be PUBLICLY on so many different pages?
rockdotcom_2.0
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Since: 9.1.02
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#54 Posted on
To Guru, I didnt assume anything, I was just presenting an example. Yes I know there are affluent african americans and poor white americans. I guess this argument could go on forever but i see you points i just hope mine are seen.

But one more thing, its not just Blacks and other races that are helped by AA, women are also helped. People seem to forget that.



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Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.73
Powell has been on record as supporting A.A. (and also being pro-choice) for a while now. He can't just say, "well, I changed my mind because Jr. thinks it's wrong." And being so high profile, it was probably pretty impossible for him to just not make a statement on the matter.

I mean, I'm sure it wasn't a surprise announcement to Jr. or anything. They saw what the best thing to do politically was, everyone got on the same page, and they did it. With that White House, you don't stick an "and" when there should be an "also."



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Aphrodite, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Spider-Man, and Boston.
PalpatineW
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#56 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by rockdotcom_2.0
    To Guru, I didnt assume anything, I was just presenting an example. Yes I know there are affluent african americans and poor white americans. I guess this argument could go on forever but i see you points i just hope mine are seen.

    But one more thing, its not just Blacks and other races that are helped by AA, women are also helped. People seem to forget that.



White people also benefited extensively from slave labor. I suppose that makes it tolerable, using your logic.



Damn your eyes!
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by DrOp
    Example: Antonio Freeman and I went to elementary school together. I transfered to another school because I was basically getting good grades and into trouble out of boredom. Free was a good student. My transfer to another school allowed me to get into a magnet middle school (Roland Park) that led to me getting in a magnet, advanced college prep high school (Poly), which led to Morehouse. No one from my original elementary school got in to Roland Park. No one. Are you telling me that Free or some of our other friends weren't good enough? That their "A"s and "B"s were different?


The problem with this scenario is that you had equality of opportunity. Freeman could've just as easily, if he or his parents had the desire and he had the grades and ability, transferred to Roland Park and gone to Poly and gotten a great education from Charm City schools as you did. I don't see how this supports your affirmative action position because color has nothing to do with this chain of events.



"Prsent day writers, especially of the Socilaist school of thought- base their various theories upon one common hypothesis: They divide mankind into two parts. People in general- with the exception of the writer himself- from the first group. The writer, all alone, forms the second and most impportant group. Surely ths is the weirderst and most conceited notion that ever entered a human brain!"
- Frederic Bastiat, The Law, 1850
ges7184
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Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

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#58 Posted on
Looking at what the brief actually said:

Click Here

From the Newsday article:

"But the brief stopped short of condemning all use of race, and it pointedly did not seek to overturn the Bakke case, which held that diversity of students on campus can justify the use of race as a factor in admitting students."

Isn't that exactly what the Michigan system does? It uses race as a factor, but not only factor, in admitting students. I don't see how a judge can say this set of weights is wrong and this set of weights is right, legally. It seems that the complaint is simply based on the weights, not the system itself. I don't think the Constitution addresses weights, but maybe it's just me.

The use of race as a factor is either Constitutional or not. If it is, I can't see how anyone can say that 20 points is unconstitutional, but 10 points is not.




(edited by ges7184 on 20.1.03 1758)
rockdotcom_2.0
Frankfurter








Since: 9.1.02
From: Virginia Beach Va

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#59 Posted on

    Originally posted by PalpatineW

      Originally posted by rockdotcom_2.0
      To Guru, I didnt assume anything, I was just presenting an example. Yes I know there are affluent african americans and poor white americans. I guess this argument could go on forever but i see you points i just hope mine are seen.

      But one more thing, its not just Blacks and other races that are helped by AA, women are also helped. People seem to forget that.



    White people also benefited extensively from slave labor. I suppose that makes it tolerable, using your logic.




I dont know how you got that from what I wrote. The point I was trying to make that Affirmative Action was not put in place to help only Blacks. It was put in place to help ALL minorities including women.



Ya know how we do it, big balling and big blingin'....
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#60 Posted on
I think there are two separate questions here, that are very easy to confuse with eachother.
One is - do "minorities" and women need the help that AA and programs like it are designed to provide? Personally, I say no, but I am completely aware that this is an issue with a wide range of differing opinions. I do not think that the topic of the thread requires solving this problem. The very fact that there is a debate makes it an issue that simply can't be ignored.
The second question- "Is Affirmative Action the proper way to solve certain racial programs?" My answer is resoundingly NO! Of course "minority" groups are going to be in favor of such a program, because it does benifit them. Let us take for granted that the "default" admission policy of most public universities is designed to exclude people of color (I disagree with this, but I am willing to start here for the sake of argument). Implementing a racist policy like AA is not the way to solve that problem! "Two wrongs don't make a right" definitly applies here. Discrimination is the act of making choices, positive or negative ones, based on race. AA propogates racism by giving preference to one race over another. Regardless of the reasoning behind it, THIS IS WRONG! Committing racism against one race is not the way to solve the problem of racism against another.
One pro-AA argument is that schools in poorer neighborhoods are proving to be a disadvantage to colored students, and that whites have a better chance of having higher scores, which would give them preference from an admissions standpoint. My stance is that this is not the colleges problem. It is a problem, however, but not something AA can fix. First off, that argument begins with the assumption that ONLY colored students are getting a substandard education from living in the "hood." There ARE poor white people from poor white neighborhoods with terrible school systems, and under AA, not only do these students have a disadvantage because they have a crappy learning environment, they are nailed again because they are white, and an AA program would definitly boot these kids from the selection pool. Conversely, there are people of color from affluent backrounds, who go to decent schools, that are getting an unfair preferential treatment based on race. This demonstrates that AA, in an attempt to solve a problem, creates more problems. This is not what we need.
We are all creative people (I would hope). I would think that we could each come up with solutions to the problem of "diversificating campuses" that would not alienate any race.
AA is flawed, and obviously so. AA is also not the only answer. If you claim that you are in support of "Equal rights and opportunities for all races," how can you support a policy that directly contradicts that, especially when there ARE better solutions to be had?



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After a millineum, Keeper will return to save us all...
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