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The W - Current Events & Politics - Bush plans to challenge program that gives preference to minority students (Page 2)
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dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 23 days
Last activity: 5 days
#21 Posted on
Oh well I guess I might as well chuck my two cents into this argument.

I have no problem with the idea that the prinicple of Affirmitive Action was well intentioned. There was and is a huge amount of discrimination both overt and subconcious, based on both gender and sex for a long time and there was a ground swell of opinion that 'something' had to be done to correct the imbalance, hence AA.

Unfortunately the idea grew to the stage where quotas were created and people who were perhaps less qualified for a job were employed. Effectively they attempted to correct racism/sexism with a discriminatory policy which with hindight was perhaps misguided. Those who were overlooked in favour of someone equally or less qualified naturally became resentful of this and ultimately it only served to fuel racial tensions.

As far as allowing private business being allowed to have racist hiring policies, I disagree to an extent. Its often very hard to uncover where such policies are in place. Each person going for an interview only knows the result of their application and may be blissfully unaware that they were overlooked because of their skin colour. This makes any boycott of a company operating such policies difficult to instigate and maintain, meaning that often firms are able to operate in a racist manner with impunity. How many places doing so do you think would be willing to have a sign in the window declaring their discrimnatory views, or put a foot note on vacancy signs saying "Blacks and Hispanics need not apply"?

Yes any owner of a business should be able to hire who he/she wants and for whatever reason. I've been involved in managing bars and appearance played a large part in employment decisions. At the end of the day, people prefer in my experience to drink in a place that has young, well presented good looking staff. The difference being that this was a fairly open policy and was based not on racial prejudice but on cold business logic.



"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy"
Benjamin Franklin
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#22 Posted on
I personally think that "legacy" and "racism" are separate issues they are not connected. I am not saying that thinking Legacy policies wrong is a bad idea, I am just saying that decisions on Affirmitive Action or racism in general should not be linked.

If there is one thing I hate, it is the term "reverse racism." The definition of racism is -

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability.

There is nothing in that definition that says you must be a minority to experience racism, or that whites are excluded. Yeah, I would say that the racism a white person experiences is most likely nothing like the racism that a person of color experiences, but that does not mean it is not racism. I personally HAVE experienced a degree of racism that one does not usually experience as a white person- I lived for a number of years in a very dominatly Mexican neighborhood, and I definitly stuck out like a sore thumb. I have also had people throw things at me, and hurl slurs like "faggot" at me (under the mistaken impression that I was gay - yup, a Conservative gay-rights activist... go figure), so I can put myself in that situation. Racism against whites is just that - RACISM, not reverse or any other silly term like that.

Decisions based on race ARE racism. If you are not admitted to college as a white man, because the school had to admit a less-qualified black man, that is racism, pure and simple. So whites are not getting their cars tagged, or being beat, or anything else like that. Not yet. But how do you think that full-blown cultural racism starts?

In the state of California now, white people ARE a minority. The nation is supposed to follow in that trend in the next few years. It is not at all difficult to imagine a day where whites experience a level of racism that this country has only seem previously fifty years ago in regards to blacks.

My point is that you cannot fix racism by "adjusting" who the target of the racism is. Yeah, there have been, and likely still are, companies that practice racism in hiring practices. The answer to this is not to impose a racist policy on them that simply targets another group which is viewed as "more advantaged." There are other ways of punishing people that are far more effective.

(edited by Pool-Boy on 16.1.03 0922)


Trees are for huggin'!
My attempt at a webpage


After a millineum, Keeper will return to save us all...
lazzzlo
Linguica








Since: 21.7.02
From: Cincinnati

Since last post: 4042 days
Last activity: 3848 days
#23 Posted on
College is expensive. Most of us know that. Some of us have paid the tuition ourselves. Others have plans to educate our children.

Michigan is a public school..one of the best.
It's athletic department receives a serious amount of financial gain that translates to the school. Most of which is used to pay for current fiscal deficits and furture earnings.

Public schools can't operate this way. No good will ever come of this. Education will be sacrificied. lol

The education system needs to be revamped and we are all at a cross-cultural barrier where we have forgotten what the primary goal of publicly funded higher education is all about.

Knowledge.

Allen Bakke challenged this already. Nobody has a right to learn. Everyone should have an opportunity to try tho.

lazzz

asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1346 days
Last activity: 254 days
#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

White people bitch too goddamn much and have no idea what it's like to be truly affected by racism. When white people start getting lynched for looking at black women or are made to sit in the upper decks of movie theaters or are not allowed to swim in "public" pools, then maybe we will have some idea of what institutionalized racism is like.

Yes, affirmative action can be annoying. I've worked jobs where they've outrightly hired black workers over more qualified non-minorities. It's not right. But it's also allowed more black and hispanics to get into college when they might not have been ordinarily able to. I don't think anything will be a perfect solution. But we can't just pretend like centuries of racism can be wiped away in 35 years.

And yes, some minorities bitch a lot and play the victim card pretty heavily. But I wouldn't trade places with a black person, even in America in 2003. And I don't think most people would. That's how I know we still have work to do.


ps - The thing that struck me about that CNN story.. what ever happend to George "Mr. States Rights" Bush? Why the need for the feds to step in on this?

(edited by asteroidboy on 16.1.03 1511)


"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex
"Was he no-selling?" - Me


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TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 3 days
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
Oh shut up man. Excusing ANY kind of racism simply because there are other, more severe instance of racism out there is like saying it's ok to murder someone by poisoning but not by starvation. It's still murder anyway you look at it.
rockdotcom_2.0
Frankfurter








Since: 9.1.02
From: Virginia Beach Va

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#26 Posted on

    Originally posted by asteroidboy
    But I wouldn't trade places with a black person, even in America in 2003.

    (edited by asteroidboy on 16.1.03 1511)



Damn bro its not THAT bad ;-)


I read all the arguements here and you guys all make points. Most people here that are against say well most companies SHOULD just hire with consideration for qualifications and not race or gender. And you say there are ways to punish those who dont comply. Well I say I dont want to have to punish anyone, I dont want it to get to were you have to punish a company with racist hiring practices. I want to stop it before it starts, the playing field should be level.


So my question is how with out Affirmative Action ( or a policy like it) can we ensure that all businesses and universities are being fair and equal with their selection processes?






Ya know how we do it, big balling and big blingin'....
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 23 days
Last activity: 5 days
#27 Posted on

    Originally posted by rockdotcom_2.0

      So my question is how with out Affirmative Action ( or a policy like it) can we ensure that all businesses and universities are being fair and equal with their selection processes?





    If they're using affirmative action then we can be sure that they aren't being fair and equal in their selection process.

    AA is an attempt at a short term solution for a problem which sadly is gonna be slow and painful to fix.



    "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy"
    Benjamin Franklin
Bizzle Izzle
Bockwurst








Since: 26.6.02
From: New Jersey, USA

Since last post: 163 days
Last activity: 163 days
#28 Posted on

    Originally posted by asteroidboy
    White people bitch too goddamn much and have no idea what it's like to be truly affected by racism. When white people start getting lynched for looking at black women or are made to sit in the upper decks of movie theaters or are not allowed to swim in "public" pools, then maybe we will have some idea of what institutionalized racism is like. (edited by asteroidboy on 16.1.03 1511)


It's not just "Whitey" who is discriminated against at the University of Michigan. The 20 Bonus points go to Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans. If you are asian, you are screwed just like us "bitching" white folk. American Indians get the extra points, but Indian Indians don't. UM discriminates against other minorities too, but you don't hear Tom Daschle or the Reverend Jesse Jackson talking about that. What would the left say if some Asian students joined the law suit?




Maiden RULES!!!
DrOp
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2151 days
Last activity: 1018 days
#29 Posted on
Wow. It's truly amazing how the whole "Angry White Male Backlash" has progressed over the past few years. It's like this mantra that they are hypnotizing people with:

"Minorities are, of course, taking your jobs, college slots, buying cars they're not supposed to afford, playing golf at your courses, and buying homes in your neighborhoods, yadda yadda yadda. And, of course, "forcing" people to be equal opportunity employers and what not is the root cause of this success and we can't have that, can we?"


DrOp--amazing




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PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
    Originally posted by DrOp
    Wow. It's truly amazing how the whole "Angry White Male Backlash" has progressed over the past few years. It's like this mantra that they are hypnotizing people with:

    "Minorities are, of course, taking your jobs, college slots, buying cars they're not supposed to afford, playing golf at your courses, and buying homes in your neighborhoods, yadda yadda yadda. And, of course, "forcing" people to be equal opportunity employers and what not is the root cause of this success and we can't have that, can we?"


    DrOp--amazing



You've found us out, DrOp. Those of us against affirmative action aren't in favor of a principled, race-blind policy. We just hate the dark man. It's not possible that we have reasons for disagreeing with you, no. We've simply been "hypnotized" by some sort of "angry white male" mantra.





(edited by PalpatineW on 16.1.03 1921)


Damn your eyes!
DrOp
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2151 days
Last activity: 1018 days
#31 Posted on
If race-blindness were possible (or even REALLY promoted), then none of this would be discussed, don't you agree? Before there was an AA type of movement, there were no laws/initatives, so I guess you can say things were "race blind." I don't want anyone to pretend that they don't see my color (because then you get into the "Oh, but you're not like THEM" talk, but rather want people to realize that regardless of my complextion, I'm just as good, as smart and as accompished as someone else or even more acomplished in some areas.

Just for kicks, here's the Admissions Criteria (from cnn.com):

ADMISSIONS CRITERIA
At the University of Michigan, minority undergraduate applicants to the College of Literature, Science and the Arts receive a 20-point bonus on the basis of race out of a 150-point system, which takes into consideration other criteria, including academics. Scholarship athletes, for example, get 20 points. Race is covered in a category called "other factors." The point system includes:


Geography
10 points - Michigan resident
6 points - Underrepresented Michigan county
2 points - Underrepresented state

Alumni
4 points - "Legacy" (parents, step-parents)
1 point - Other (grandparents, siblings, spouses)

Essay
1 point - Outstanding essay (since 1999, 3 points)

Personal achievement
1 point - State
3 points - Regional
5 points - National

Leadership and service
1 point - State
3 points - Regional
5 points - National

Miscellaneous
20 points - Socio-economic disadvantage
20 points - Underrepresented racial-ethnic minority identification or education
5 points - Men in nursing
20 points - Scholarship athlete
20 points - Provost's discretion


Maximum of 40 points and only one option is assigned in the alumni, personal achievement, leadership & service, and miscellaneous categories.

--------------------

What we can not know at this point are the relative statistics of who DID and DIDN'T get it. Without that, we are speculating at best. When I didn't get accepted in some colleges, I didn't blame race or anything. I simply choose from the colleges that did accept me and went to school.

The danger in this "Oh no, it's inequitable!" argument is that it gives some people an excuse to why they didn't get into school other that the fact that they weren't as highly qualified relative to the applicant pool. If an "A" were an "A" were an "A" this would be moot. But we all know that an "A" from Urban High (black, white or hispanic) is not the same as an "A" from Private High.









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Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1186 days
Last activity: 983 days
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
It's amazing the kind of things people will justifiy "because it's right." Affirmative action is state sponsored racism: no more, no less.

The school just needs to review all people based on individual merit, much in the same way people need to stop referring to themselves as "hyphenated-Americans" instead of just "Americans."



"Prsent day writers, especially of the Socilaist school of thought- base their various theories upon one common hypothesis: They divide mankind into two parts. People in general- with the exception of the writer himself- from the first group. The writer, all alone, forms the second and most impportant group. Surely ths is the weirderst and most conceited notion that ever entered a human brain!"
- Frederic Bastiat, The Law, 1850
DrOp
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2151 days
Last activity: 1018 days
#33 Posted on
Please go read:
Click Here for more information on the American Association for Affirmative Action.

From Merriam-Webster's:

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
Date: 1936
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
- rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective


Attempting to grant opportunities for people who have been historically closed out of the talent pool is not racism. Quotas are wrong. Affirmative Actions does not necessarily equal quotas. It can mean companies going to Morehouse or Howard and holding open houses to increase the diversity of their interview pool. Is that so wrong?

It would do a LOT of people well to look longitudinally at the track record fo these people who "supposedly" got in these schools and others because of quotas (excluding all student athletes). What's the graduation rate? What careers do they end up having? Are they successful? Isn't that the bottom line?

DrOp--noticed the "Provost's discretion" points (20 max), but I guess that's not an issue.






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scabby
Bauerwurst








Since: 23.2.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 2319 days
Last activity: 2319 days
#34 Posted on

    Originally posted by DrOp
    Attempting to grant opportunities for people who have been historically closed out of the talent pool is not racism.




It is if it's at the expense of another person, and the decision was based in any way, shape or form on race.

Student A is a white male. Student B is a black male. Student A is, based on merit alone, a more qualified candidate for UM, however, his spot is given to Student B due to the fact that he was awarded for his race. This isn't to say that Student B wouldn't make a good student, but the plain and simple fact is that he is being admitted over a more qualified student because he is black and Student A is white. While "granting oppurtunities" for one person, UM is discriminating against another person based on the colour of their skin.

It seems fairly clear-cut to me.









Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 115 days
Last activity: 115 days
#35 Posted on
While I'm sure that it does happen, why do you seem to think that every minority student is less qualified to go to these schools?

-Jag



War is when you kill people with no names.
DrOp
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2151 days
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#36 Posted on
Jaguar said:

    While I'm sure that it does happen, why do you seem to think that every minority student is less qualified to go to these schools?



THAT question is the entire point of why AA efforts exists.

Scabby--I'd hesitate to say that that situation happens other than to say that many people believe it happens, but again, without rejection stats and copies of files, we can only SPECULATE that it does happen in this manner.

Not every majority person that gets rejected from a school gets rejected because a minority "took their spot." Schools reject qualified applicants all the time for a variety of reasons, I'm sure. There are plenty of minorites that get in school that are qualified. There are many that aren't (and I'll be stereotypical of student athletes here).

My fear is that this flashpoint discussion allows many to think (without concrete proof) that (a) Joe Black/Hispanic/Whatever isn't qualified to be there and (b) Joe White didn't qualify simply because of a quota, and not because of any other merited reasons.




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calvinh0560
Boudin rouge








Since: 3.1.02
From: People's Republic of Massachusetts

Since last post: 477 days
Last activity: 59 min.
#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by Jaguar
    While I'm sure that it does happen, why do you seem to think that every minority student is less qualified to go to these schools?

    -Jag



No one ever said that. What alot of people are mad at is that AA is helping less qualified students to get into school not that every minority student is not qualified to be there. You should know better.

(edited by calvinh0560 on 17.1.03 1319)
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 115 days
Last activity: 115 days
#38 Posted on
    Originally posted by calvinh0560
    No one ever said that. What alot of people are mad at is that AA is helping less qualified students to get into school not that every minority student is not qualified to be there. You should know better.


Okay, sorry. Here, let me say it better:

Why do you seem to think that every minority student who is helped by affirmative action is less qualified to go to this school?

-Jag

(edited by Jaguar on 17.1.03 1348)


War is when you kill people with no names.
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

Since last post: 1232 days
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#39 Posted on

    Originally posted by Jaguar
      Originally posted by calvinh0560
      No one ever said that. What alot of people are mad at is that AA is helping less qualified students to get into school not that every minority student is not qualified to be there. You should know better.


    Okay, sorry. Here, let me say it better:

    Why do you seem to think that every minority student who is helped by affirmative action is less qualified to go to this school?

    -Jag

    (edited by Jaguar on 17.1.03 1348)


If they are qualified to get in the school anyway, they do not need affirmitive action to get them in.




Trees are for huggin'!
My attempt at a webpage


After a millineum, Keeper will return to save us all...
DrOp
Frankfurter








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2151 days
Last activity: 1018 days
#40 Posted on
PoolBoy said:

    If they are qualified to get in the school anyway, they do not need affirmitive action to get them in.



And before AA, there were tons of qualified people who DIDN'T get in based on racial prejudicesand what not, which is why AA initiatives began and now you want to return to the system that could potentially allow the same thing to occur again?

I'm speechless.

DrOp--but then again...




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I don't think it's hard to reconcile. The UN has failed to act yet again in a massacre situation. Now.... I will agree that we have dropped the ball on this too.
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