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The W - Current Events & Politics - Brits and the EU
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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Question for our British friends: are you guys concerned abotu Blair agreeing to the new European Constitution? I was reading this commentary from this side of the ocean and was shocked that things had moved this far along.

It would be sad and, frankly, pathetic if the country that gave birth to the US was turned into a vassal state being governed by the continent.



These Democrats up in Texas they may not be patriots, but they did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.-Rep. Tom DeLay on the "fugitive" Texas Democrats
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Lexus
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

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#2 Posted on
The coyote goes...
    Originally posted by Grimis
    Question for our British friends: are you guys concerned abotu Blair agreeing to the new European Constitution? I was reading this commentary from this side of the ocean and was shocked that things had moved this far along.

    It would be sad and, frankly, pathetic if the country that gave birth to the US was turned into a vassal state being governed by the continent.



This all seems pretty damn strange to me. What, do people expect the British Pound to collapse under the pressure of the Euro?



I own a Gamecube, and I own Eternal Darkness.
Pool-Boy
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Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#3 Posted on
I'd like to see something on the new EU constitution itself. Does it actually impose a government on the highest level without a vote by the citizens?

I am kind of wondering how long it will be before this sucks the United States into a war to liberate Britain... The EU needs to learn a lesson from the United States. Individual STATES used to have more power to handle their own affairs... it was intended to be something very similar to what the EU is proposing- an extremely tight alliance of nations with a central governing body... then there was the Civil War, and that all went out the window...

On a positive note, if Britain loses its Security Council Seat, then so does France.





Still on the Shelf #9
messenoir
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Since: 20.2.02
From: Columbia, MO

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#4 Posted on
Yes, cause no one who opposes the US should have any real power. Howdy doody.

And just be honest with your question, Grimis. "how could you English join with the French in anything."

Pool-Boy
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Since: 1.8.02
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#5 Posted on

    Originally posted by messenoir
    Yes, cause no one who opposes the US should have any real power.



Fine by me, especially in this case. If you take a look at how they opposed us, and WHY they opposed us (to cover their own asses)... hell yeah they should not be in that position of power. The abused it flagrantly, and no one even blinked...

Another reason why the UN is a waste of time and air...





Still on the Shelf #9
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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Last activity: 877 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by messenoir
    And just be honest with your question, Grimis. "how could you English join with the French in anything."

I'm talking about the dissolution of a country, culture and form of government(by nefarious means) and you think this has to do with France? I think not. It has a lot to do with the fact that Britain has existed for nearly 1,000 years, gave birth to the United States, has existed as a beacon of parlimentary government and, for better or for worse, spread culture and civilization across the globe.

It has nothing to do with France. It has everything to do with pissing a country away...



These Democrats up in Texas they may not be patriots, but they did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.-Rep. Tom DeLay on the "fugitive" Texas Democrats
A-MOL
Frankfurter








Since: 26.6.02
From: York, England

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#7 Posted on
One thing is clear - Blair will not get to enter us into the Constitution without a referendum. There has been talk for a long time about a lot of resistance to Blair's decisions in the party and leadership challenges have been rumoured. If he goes ahead, expect a backbencher to make a move, allowing Gordon Brown to throw his cap in. His only option is to ask the public but Blair, bastion of democracy that he is, does not want a referendum for one reason: he will not win the vote.





...full of energy. Multi-orgasmic, if you will, in a cosmic sort of way."
dMp
Banger








Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

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#8 Posted on
Nowhere in the article is really mentioned what the change would entail for real.
I mean, it's bullshit to say that the parliament no longer has any say. All countries will remain souvereign and what not. It's just that the EU countries work together on more stuff and hold up the same laws and such in certain cases.

At least that is what I know and understand about it.

Oh and rofl..1,000 years of culture? Bwahahaha..those are the same guys that repressed you americans and were scum for oh so long. The same country that fucked over half the continent with its imperialism, and the same country that allows two boy killers to start a new life (the whole jamie bulger story) and serves vinegar with its fish and chips!

Back to being serious again, the EU might have many flaws, but I don't think it will go so far as destroying a country and its culture

Edit: oh and to tell you the truth, i believe the true reason Blair was on the US side in the Iraq case was just to show Europe that he isn't going to play along with them.


(edited by dMp on 23.5.03 1452)


*sigh* Why bother?
messenoir
Summer sausage








Since: 20.2.02
From: Columbia, MO

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#9 Posted on
Being in the EU doesn't destroy any culture besides your currency. It allows for a strong currency and a strong front against such things as the US forcing GE foods on you. England opposes GE foods, and is allied with France and the EU in that regards. Since the US is now suing on this issue, you can imagine that Blair and England would want a strong front.

But you keep all your culture, all your history. And if England decided to become part of the US, you would have no problem with that. The only reason you have a problem with England joining the EU is because countries in the EU disagree with the US. You don't live in England, so no matter how much you want to deny it, I see no other reason for your stand. Or you're just woefully ignorant of what being part of the EU means.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by messenoir
    And if England decided to become part of the US, you would have no problem with that.

Sure I would. I wouldn't want to have to pay to pick up the pieces of that welfarer state.


    Originally posted by messenoir
    The only reason you have a problem with England joining the EU is because countries in the EU disagree with the US. You don't live in England, so no matter how much you want to deny it, I see no other reason for your stand.

Or that the US, UK, and continental economies are intrinsically linked. The fact that the EU economy is going into the shitter affects the US as much as it does the UK know and certainly will if this plan goes through.


    Originally posted by messenoir
    Or you're just woefully ignorant of what being part of the EU means.

I know what the EU means; socialism, high taxes, lax immigration laws, weak-kneed on defense, loss of national identity, week currency and the likleihood of Europe becoming a third world country in the next 100 years.



These Democrats up in Texas they may not be patriots, but they did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.-Rep. Tom DeLay on the "fugitive" Texas Democrats
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 11 hours
#11 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis
    I think not. It has a lot to do with the fact that Britain has existed for nearly 1,000 years, gave birth to the United States, has existed as a beacon of parlimentary government and, for better or for worse, spread culture and civilization across the globe.

    It has nothing to do with France. It has everything to do with pissing a country away...



Or maybe it has everything to do with kickstarting our ailing export industries, allowing trade within the EU which does not envelop exchange rate risk, permitting greater transparency of prices across the EU allowing consumers to more easily search for the best available deals, etc etc.

I honestly dont know where I stand on the euro (in spite or maybe because of the fact that I've studied economics) but I certainly dont think it should be debated on the basis of how it will affect our precious soveriegnty. Really, I couldn't give a monkeys if I'm spending euro's or 's. I do care about our manufacturing industry, Facilitating increased and fairer competition etc and thats what I'd like to see the issue debated on.

Oh, and it certainly shouldnt be put to a referendum. The idea that millions of people who form an opinion based on what they read in the Sun down their local pub scares the bejeebus out of me.



"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard
Mr. Heat Miser
Blutwurst








Since: 27.1.02

Since last post: 2355 days
Last activity: 458 days
#12 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis

    I know what the EU means; socialism, high taxes, lax immigration laws, weak-kneed on defense, loss of national identity, week currency and the likleihood of Europe becoming a third world country in the next 100 years.



Can we make this a bet? USA vs. Europe, which has the highest median standard of living on May 23rd, 2103? I'll lay 100$ US down on that one. (Of course, chances are that one or both of the USA and the EU will no longer exist at that point - in which case, no bet.)

And yes, I am planning on living til 130, minimum.



-MHM, winner of the 2000 Throwdown in Christmastown.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1080 days
Last activity: 877 days
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by dMr
    Or maybe it has everything to do with kickstarting our ailing export industries, allowing trade within the EU which does not envelop exchange rate risk, permitting greater transparency of prices across the EU allowing consumers to more easily search for the best available deals, etc etc.

I still wouldn't want to kickstart export industries by linking myself to less than stable economies in France and Portugal not to meantion eastern Europe. Nor would I want to volunteer piss my sovereignty away to a government that can be influenced by totalitarian nuts from the Continent. Can you imagine how it would be if most residents today were asked if they wanted to join the US and come under the possible influence of California?


    Originally posted by dMr
    Oh, and it certainly shouldnt be put to a referendum. The idea that millions of people who form an opinion based on what they read in the Sun down their local pub scares the bejeebus out of me.

Maybe maintaing parliamentary "democracy" isn't that important to you afterall...



These Democrats up in Texas they may not be patriots, but they did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.-Rep. Tom DeLay on the "fugitive" Texas Democrats
-proletarian-
Chipolata








Since: 29.4.03

Since last post: 3867 days
Last activity: 3866 days
#14 Posted on
"I am kind of wondering how long it will be before this sucks the United States into a war to liberate Britain"



I doubt it. Britain has no more oil.

Hehe. Sorry, I couldn't resist.......


Honestly, I'm all for the EU, -IF- it develops into a family of nation states, NOT as a federal European superstate. I'm talking about continent-wide free trade, free movement of goods and services and people.....what it is right now. Further expansion should be managed carefully and should only be considered if the best interests of current EU member states are the central driving force. I'm very happy with the 10 new states set to join in '04, 5 of which have already held referendums on the issue, which their respective people have mostly ratified with large majorities. Membership will help central and eastern Europe develop economically and socially, and as a rule Europe should attempt to continue the expansion further down the road to encompass the entire continent.

A Europe of independent nations, integrating their economies through the euro currency and allowing for greater opportunity for all it's citizens regardless of borders (which are now thankfully non-existent within Europe thanks to the Schengen agreement) should be the goal. Eventually, a common army could also be a good way to bring the continent together in spirit and kinship.....
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 38 days
Last activity: 1 day
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
The same country that fucked over half the continent with its imperialism, and the same country that allows two boy killers to start a new life (the whole jamie bulger story) and serves vinegar with its fish and chips!

Whoa. I may not know that much about Europe, but I know that a Dutchman talking shit about another country's imperialistic past, lax criminal justice, and FOOD is pretty astounding.


(edited by MoeGates on 24.5.03 0100)


"I'm sorry, I didn't think I was going to talk about 'man on dog' with a United States Senator. It's sort of freaking me out."


Associated Press interview with Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA), 04-07-2003.
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 11 hours
#16 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis
    Originally posted by dMr
    Oh, and it certainly shouldnt be put to a referendum. The idea that millions of people who form an opinion based on what they read in the Sun down their local pub scares the bejeebus out of me.

Maybe maintaing parliamentary "democracy" isn't that important to you afterall...



Wow, wow, wow. As far as I'm concerned, we've already voted for these guys. I dont want them asking my permission to implement change every freaking five minutes.

Introduction to the european monetary union is one of the single most complex economic issues to affect our country and Labour would have our policy on it be decided by people who frankly lack the education to make an informed decision in this area.

I mean this as no disrespect to the British public. Like I say, I've studied economics and would consider myself to be one of the better informed people in the country on the subject and yet I would not presume for a second that I was educated enough to make that decision. I simply dont have the time and resources to gather and evaluate the information necessary to do so.

In fact, although I consider there to be several potential benefits to joining the Euro I may ultimately go for a No vote, simply because I have reservations and a Yes decision is irreversible.

Bottom line is we elected these people and they should now devote a large proportion of their time to weighing up ALL information available to them with people qualified to do so before making and acting upon a decision.

Alas Labour were to frightened of revealing the divisions in their party on this issue to take a firm stand one way or t'other prior to the last general election. Now we're stuck with this ridiculous referendum idea which was designed to remove the one area in which the Tories appeared more popular at that time from the political agenda.

Like I say, we should put these people in power to make these decisions, not to ask our permission at every bleeding turn. And incidentally, if they had put a recent issue of relative importance to a referendum (as you would presumably like important matters to be) then you guys would have looked mighty lonely out there in Iraq.



"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard
-proletarian-
Chipolata








Since: 29.4.03

Since last post: 3867 days
Last activity: 3866 days
#17 Posted on
"I know what the EU means; socialism, high taxes, lax immigration laws, weak-kneed on defense, loss of national identity, week currency and the likleihood of Europe becoming a third world country in the next 100 years."


So, Europe means a weak currency, hm? Surely you haven't noticed that the Euro is worth about $1.2O US? If that's weak, what does that make YOUR money?


Europe a third world country in 100 years? The EU has directly lead to the elimination of currency, border and tarriff barriers to trade, allowing the free flow of goods, services and, yes, people, across Europe for the first time since the days of the Roman Empire. The Euro has eliminated costly currency-conversion when trading between European countries, and inter-European trade has jumped by an amazing 200% since the introduction of the single currency. How this will lead to economic collapse is beyond me.

Economics isn't your strong point, is it?
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1080 days
Last activity: 877 days
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by -proletarian-
    So, Europe means a weak currency, hm? Surely you haven't noticed that the Euro is worth about $1.2O US? If that's weak, what does that make YOUR money?

Agreed short term, not long term.


    Originally posted by -proletarian-
    Europe a third world country in 100 years? The EU has directly lead to the elimination of currency, border and tarriff barriers to trade, allowing the free flow of goods, services and, yes, people, across Europe for the first time since the days of the Roman Empire.

We all know how well THAT worked...




These Democrats up in Texas they may not be patriots, but they did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.-Rep. Tom DeLay on the "fugitive" Texas Democrats
ThreepMe
Morcilla








Since: 15.2.02
From: Dallas

Since last post: 3512 days
Last activity: 3171 days
#19 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by -proletarian-
      So, Europe means a weak currency, hm? Surely you haven't noticed that the Euro is worth about $1.2O US? If that's weak, what does that make YOUR money?

    Agreed short term, not long term.


      Originally posted by -proletarian-
      Europe a third world country in 100 years? The EU has directly lead to the elimination of currency, border and tarriff barriers to trade, allowing the free flow of goods, services and, yes, people, across Europe for the first time since the days of the Roman Empire.

    We all know how well THAT worked...



It lasted a hell of a lot longer than America has. And chances are, it will last longer than America will.

Let's not forget who set the standard that is the "Modern Empire."



I would like to congatulate Al Snow on his contact with La-Z-Boy. Because we all know Al doesn't sell chairs. - Mick Foley




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godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3716 days
Last activity: 3662 days
#20 Posted on
We all know how well THAT worked...

Uh, the Roman Empire lasted about seven hundred years (from the early days of the Republic through to the fall of the Western empire). If you count Byzantium as "the Roman Empire", then it lasted fifteen hundred years.

That's pretty good.
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