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The W - Current Events & Politics - Britons on Gun Control (Page 2)
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Bizzle Izzle
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Since: 26.6.02
From: New Jersey, USA

Since last post: 155 days
Last activity: 154 days
#21 Posted on
"But I damn sure took offense to Bizzle suggesting all was rosy across the Atlantic and that we Brits were some bunch of pinky liberal idiots. "

Who did that? Here across the pond the leftwing nuts always look down their noses when people who support the constitution say "if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns". I was merely pointing out that that's what has apparently happened in Britain. I don't care what the Brits do, but I'm glad to be able to use this as an example of why the freedom to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. In the literature I receive from the NRA, there are LOTS of Brits who bemoan the fact that they are no longer able to keep their old hunting rifles. So they aren't all a 'bunch of pinky liberal idiots'. Unlike the left over here.

As far as I'm concerned, gun control is hitting what you aim at.




Maiden RULES!!!
astrobstrd
Bockwurst








Since: 13.3.02
From: Loveland, OH

Since last post: 2489 days
Last activity: 2456 days
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#22 Posted on
First off, isn't this piece an editorial? I could pick any successful or unsuccessful program passed in the U.K. in the past fifty years and find at least a few editorials in the British press about how such programs were great or horrible, whether or not they were great or horrible. But I take them with a grain of salt (even the ones I agree with) because they are written by someone who has an agenda for writing. Give me an impartial NEWS article with, you know, FACTS in it next time.

I'm also a little sick of the "I could kill any one with anything" argument. Two things defeat this. First of all, none of the objects mentioned (cars, tire iron, knives, etc.) are made for the sole purpose of killing things. It is an unhappy coincidence that a tool used for cutting vegetables or camping is also capable of inflicting bodily harm. Guns are made specifically to kill things. It is their only purpose. Some people collect them. If they didn't kill things, they would have no purpose and no one would collect them. Secondly, killing with a gun is ludicrously easy and quick(it should be, it's what they are made for). If you stab someone, getting the blade back out is tricky, because of the suction the body creates and one stab will rarely kill someone. If one gunshot doesn't work, you pull the trigger again and repeat. I am by no means a gun expert, but I'd wager that someone with a fully loaded pistol could inflict more damage in the course of one minute (from further away) than someone with a crow-bar or a straight-razor in the same span of time (assuming of course that the victim, was trying to get away and/or struggle). I'm not going to say that everyone is a perfect marksman, but more shots from Joe Average will hit a target if he uses a pistol than if he uses a bow.

Like the caption of my favorite Jim Borgman cartoon reads, "You can have my gun when you pry it from my kid's cold, dead hands."

(edited by astrobstrd on 10.1.03 0141)


"All we are is meat."

-The Deftones
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 15 days
Last activity: 1 day
#23 Posted on
Grimis, if you had read my post more closely you would have noticed I was talking primarily about the situation in the UK. Hence, if somebody breaks into my flat (in Scotland) I most likely won't end up dead cos the person wont have a gun. Murders still damned rare over here thank god.

And call me freakishly liberal, but I dont happen to think that burglars deserve to be shot. Incarcirated yes, killed no.

And what, you want to legalise drugs? My argument is simply that over here we so far have been pretty damned successful with gun control inspite of the recent statistics, and we certainaly havent seen a repeat of the Dunblane tragedy.

And finally, yes if someones really hell bent on murder then they'll find some way of doing it. But I'd far sooner face a mugger with a knife or a baseball bat than a fucking shotgun. But then I'm just being naive eh? Its not like I actually live in Britain and have any first hand experience of the situation over here is it?



"I tear my quadricep all the time. Heck I tore it this morning and I'm fine!" Kurt Angle

Undisputed Wiener of the day 6.11.02
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1178 days
Last activity: 975 days
#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by dMr
    Grimis, if you had read my post more closely you would have noticed I was talking primarily about the situation in the UK. Hence, if somebody breaks into my flat (in Scotland) I most likely won't end up dead cos the person wont have a gun. Murders still damned rare over here thank god.

For now. The crime rate in the UK is skyrocketing, especially in the wake of the gun ban. Now knowing that you live in Scotland not England that changes things a tad but I think the same rash of violence sweeping England will sweep Scotland as well.


    Originally posted by dMr
    And call me freakishly liberal, but I dont happen to think that burglars deserve to be shot. Incarcirated yes, killed no.

If it's me or them, they eat lead. Human instincts kick in at some point and self preservation takes over, as it has been wired in the human brain since the beginning.


    Originally posted by dMr
    My argument is simply that over here we so far have been pretty damned successful with gun control inspite of the recent statistics, and we certainaly havent seen a repeat of the Dunblane tragedy.

That's because Dunblane was a freak incident outside of the norm that was used by some to capitalize on the situation to eliminate guns. Remember this about gun control; it's less about guns, and more about contorl.


    Originally posted by dMr
    And finally, yes if someones really hell bent on murder then they'll find some way of doing it. But I'd far sooner face a mugger with a knife or a baseball bat than a fucking shotgun.

I'll take a .357, thanks. Just remember this about the bat; you can't swing a bat as fast as the muggers bullet flieso ut of the barrel.



Tank: So what do you need? Besides a miracle.
Neo: Guns. Lots of guns.
The Matrix
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1895 days
Last activity: 1829 days
#25 Posted on
Oh MAN there's nothing like being told what's wrong with your country by people who DON'T EVEN LIVE THERE. It's all very well and good you coming on here and talking about the "rash of violence" spreading across the U.K, what you don't seem to realise is your country has had that same rash for decades now. Check the figures. Stop ignoring the fact that, proportionally, your entire country is a fucking downtown crime-fest compared to ours.

Don't like that generalisation? Hell, then don't generalise about England. And again I say, check the facts. Your whole damn argument is flawed due to gun-Hell, EVERY type of crime being around fifty times more frequent in the U.S. And it's not simply a case of the population difference. Case in point: child abduction/murder. In our country we have on average 5-6 cases a year. In the U.S? Between 800-1,000. HELLO. How about race crimes? Check the figures. Violent robberies? Check the figures. Rapes, murders? Check the figures.

Oh, and I also agree with everything astrobd said, which of course was ignored by those with the opposing viewpoint.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1178 days
Last activity: 975 days
#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    the figures.
OK; per capita England is slightly ahead of the US in all numbers mentioned.



Tank: So what do you need? Besides a miracle.
Neo: Guns. Lots of guns.
The Matrix
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#27 Posted on
I love it when misguided "compassion" dictates public policy. That is almost as bad as "morality" doing the same.
I will never understand the mostly liberal need to "protect the criminal." I am sorry, if someone invades my house, he deserves to get shot.
When did the focus turn from protecting the real victims to protecting the criminals?



My attempt at a webpage

oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1895 days
Last activity: 1829 days
#28 Posted on
"I am sorry, if someone invades my house, he deserves to get shot."

So, by your rationale, if someone comes into your house, armed or not, with or without the intention to hurt you, who may possibly flee the scene when confronted, they deserve to get shot. Uh huh. Interesting. So why don't we just shoot all criminals? Hell, let's just kill everyone that puts a foot out of line, no need to do things in moderation or show any humanity whatsoever!
Eh, I'm arguing against a brick wall-you're never going to convince someone who sees it as their God-given right to take someone's life if they're wronged. It's not misguided compassion; it's being better than the scum out there rather than sinking to their level. Try looking a mother in the face after you've put a hole in their punk-ass eighteen year-old kid for stepping over your threshold. Bad parent? Probably. Deserves to have her son shot dead? No fucking way.

Grimis: Present me with said figures and I'll eat the crow. Because having read several magazine and broadsheet articles concerning 'em, and America's problem with said crime, I'd love to see your source. And please, answer the other arguments brought against you; I HATE it when people get selective about issues like this.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
Are you arguing, oldschool, that one is obliged to simply LET one's house get robbed, or one's children abducted, or wife raped? The right to self-defense is just that; a right.



Damn your eyes!
calvinh0560
Boudin rouge








Since: 3.1.02
From: People's Republic of Massachusetts

Since last post: 469 days
Last activity: 1 day
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    So, by your rationale, if someone comes into your house, armed or not, with or without the intention to hurt you, who may possibly flee the scene when confronted, they deserve to get shot. Uh huh. Interesting.


You know you are right. Lets just sit there and watch the dirtbag who enters my house to see if he has any intentions to hurt me. I am sorry if someone enters my house without permission THAT PERSON IS THERE TO HURT ME. I am not going to risk the safety of myself or my family just because this kid may or may not just be in there to get a few bucks so you can go buy his crack.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1178 days
Last activity: 975 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    So, by your rationale, if someone comes into your house, armed or not, with or without the intention to hurt you, who may possibly flee the scene when confronted, they deserve to get shot. Uh huh. Interesting.


When criminals break the law, bad things happen to them. If they enter my home without an invite, they will leave without the ability to have a pulse. I'm amazed how some people can defend criminality, but then again people defended OJ, Clinton, and Iraq so what's the difference.


    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    So why don't we just shoot all criminals?


Where can I sign up?


    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Try looking a mother in the face after you've put a hole in their punk-ass eighteen year-old kid for stepping over your threshold. Bad parent? Probably. Deserves to have her son shot dead? No fucking way.


OK, it'll be something like this. "Ma'am, you're worthless sack of shit you call a son is no longer among the respirating because he threatened me and family. I'm sorry, but for whatever reason he decided to break both the law and social mores so I took a preventative measures to make sure he doesn't do it again."


    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Grimis: Present me with said figures and I'll eat the crow. Because having read several magazine and broadsheet articles concerning 'em, and America's problem with said crime, I'd love to see your source.


I'll see if I can find them...


    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    And please, answer the other arguments brought against you; I HATE it when people get selective about issues like this.


What other arguments? The "self-defense/Gun rights" crowd in here has repudiated every argument the "gun grabbing/defend the criminals" crowd.



Tank: So what do you need? Besides a miracle.
Neo: Guns. Lots of guns.
The Matrix
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1338 days
Last activity: 246 days
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by scabby
      I just don't know why some people want to facilitate ownership of a tool that is designed for harming living things to any random person.


    Mainly for protecting ones self from those intent on harming living things or any random person....

    ....and vaporizing Bambi for dinner(I'm KIDDING; I've never had venison)



I think it's more than that. Gun lovers border on gun worshippers, and I've never understood it.

Is it a fallic fantasy? Just macho bullshit posturing? Does owning a gun go hand-in-hand with getting a lift kit and glass packs for your truck? Why take so much pride in exhorting something that kills people? Do you long for the day that someone breaks into your house so you can put a "slug" in their temple?

Just curious.



"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex
"Was he no-selling?" - Me


"...release the dogs, or the bees, or the dogs with bees in their mouths, and when they bark, they shoot bees at you?"
-- Homer Simpson
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1178 days
Last activity: 975 days
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by asteroidboy
    I think it's more than that. Gun lovers border on gun worshippers, and I've never understood it.

    Is it a fallic fantasy? Just macho bullshit posturing? Does owning a gun go hand-in-hand with getting a lift kit and glass packs for your truck? Why take so much pride in exhorting something that kills people?



You know, people who own guns are not all rednecks(again thanks to liberals for being the last group in the world stereotyping everybody). And I don't worship the gun. What should be exorted is the right to own a gun that is laid out in the Constitution.


    Originally posted by asteroidboy
    Do you long for the day that someone breaks into your house so you can put a "slug" in their temple?

    Just curious.



Of course not. I just want to be ready for any contingency that may happen.



Tank: So what do you need? Besides a miracle.
Neo: Guns. Lots of guns.
The Matrix
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#34 Posted on
Not at all... You see, not all people who are pro-gun actually OWN them. Personally, I am a sword guy myself. It would be interesting to see the look on an invader to my homes face as a calmly gut him with a short calvary sword or a katana.
To quote a somewhat annoying radio commercial- "You didn't expect that, did you?"
There is a reason it is called "Home Invasion." You are right, they may only be there to rob the place. But you can't tell me that 90% of them would not attempt to do more if confronted. I am sorry - they have no buisness in my home whether their intentions are violent or not, and I am not going to wait to see before I make my move. If the dogs don't get them, I will.
And I will gladly go to the poor mother of the piece of shit who broke in my home, and explain to her that before she decides to spawn any more piles of shit, perhaps she should take a close look at how she raises them.
It is all about ACCOUNTABILITY. Breaking into my home risks death. By gun or by dogs or by crazy honky with a sword. The criminal deserves no compassion. His momma should have taught him better.

(edited by Pool-Boy on 13.1.03 1055)


My attempt at a webpage

asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1338 days
Last activity: 246 days
#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by Grimis

    You know, people who own guns are not all rednecks(again thanks to liberals for being the last group in the world stereotyping everybody). And I don't worship the gun. What should be exorted is the right to own a gun that is laid out in the Constitution.



Didn't say you were a redneck. I've got plenty of redneck credentials and I'm a registered Democrat.

You don't worship guns? What's with the avatar pic? And the sig file? Or "guns cause crime like flies cause dogshit?" Why have you come up with clever euphemisms for death in almost every post on this thread? You've at the VERY least, put a lot of thought and energy into it.

You posted an editorial that you agreed with, fine. But don't act like it's the final say that England should be awash in guns like America is. I think guns are a necessary evil, but quit with your murder fantasy masturbation.



"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex
"Was he no-selling?" - Me


"...release the dogs, or the bees, or the dogs with bees in their mouths, and when they bark, they shoot bees at you?"
-- Homer Simpson
Bizzle Izzle
Bockwurst








Since: 26.6.02
From: New Jersey, USA

Since last post: 155 days
Last activity: 154 days
#36 Posted on

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Not at all... You see, not all people who are pro-gun actually OWN them.



EXACTLY!!!
The reason I give the NRA my money is not because I am a gun owner, but rather I am someone who supports the constituion and I want to still have my constitutional right to buy a gun when I finally decide to make that purchase.

What's wrong with liking guns? Or swords, or armor, or crossbows, or any ancient/modern weapon? Some people just love Hummel figurines. But why is it wrong to like something just because the longhairedhippietypepinkofags say "guns are designed to kill people"?

Without firearms, there would be no USA. The gun has been part of America since before there was this great union.

And I for one, totally dig Grimis' avatar pic.




Maiden RULES!!!
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1895 days
Last activity: 1829 days
#37 Posted on
Dear God, I agree with asteroidboy...

It seems to me, Grimis, that you have a problem understanding moderation. By your posts, I take it that you feel any kind of law-breaking-laws which are only set out by other, equally fallible men-deserves death. Interesting notion. But even by your seemingly primitive standards you're contradicting yourself. You seem to think that when dealing with criminals it's "An eye for an eye". Shooting somebody for breaking into your house is not "eye for an eye". It's pretty much a form of murder. See, if that were socially, legally or even MORALLY acceptable, which you seem to think it is, then we'd live in a vigilante state, whereby we can do what we want, when we want. We don't. We appoint individuals to govern us, we appoint a large police force to act as protector for us. So, as you can see, your whole argument that "if you're a criminal, you deserve to be shot" is totally flawed, because if you shot a guy for breaking into your house, unless he had a gun pointed at you himself, then you'd be a criminal too. You would be taking a life, perhaps necessarily, but likely not.

On the plus side, the pro-gun guys here would all make superb politicians, as you all seem to believe that you're infallible and you'd never fall foul of the law. I wish I had the ability to be that self-righteous; unfortunately, I'm human.

Oh, and check out the situation in Illinois for some moe interesting "Criminals deserve death" tidbits.
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#38 Posted on
First off- if you kill a home invader, you are NOT breaking the law, whether he had a gun pointed at your head or not. You have the right to protect your home, and while you may have to go to court (if there is a zealous DA) you will likely not be convicted of anything. You are allowed to protect your home in this country.
Second- I have not heard a single argument from the "Pro-gun" people saying that "we are not criminals, therefore we should have guns." You are completely missing the point. First, if you outlaw guns, "only outlaws will have guns." Criminals will still be able to get them, and then the ordinary, law abiding folks will not. So the only thing outlawing guns will accomplish is taking weapons out of the hand of people who are NOT using them for crime.
Second, I challenge you to come up with a statistic of crimes committed with guns- how many of those weapons were obtained illegally vs. Legally. I think you will be surprised. But the fact is, if an otherwise decent person with a gun snaps and uses it in a crime, he deserves to be punished for committing that crime. If he did not have a gun, and snapped anyway and decided to kill someone, there are thousands of ways to do it. Taking a gun away is not going to stop it.
And I do not buy the "guns make it easier" BS argument- killing someone is a big decision and once someone has made it, they WILL find a way. Still, the fact remains that guns purchased legally account for such a small percentage of violent crimes committed with guns that the point is largely irrelavant...

(edited by Pool-Boy on 13.1.03 1113)


My attempt at a webpage

dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 15 days
Last activity: 1 day
#39 Posted on
OK, I think I've pretty much made my feelings clear on this subject, so I'll just address the points i've been pulled up on and try to make this post my last to avoid just rehashing the same arguments.

Bizzle, when we outlawed guns this didnt mean only the outlaws had guns. The police have plenty of highly trained armed response units working over here. I'd far rather have these fully trained professionals who are trained to only to pull the trigger as a last resort trying to keep the peace than have guns in the hands of people who think burglars deserve a "slug in the temple".
Secondly, a massive majority of Brits still support our gun laws in spite of the recent increase in gun crimes (incidentaly, a 39% increase in one year hardly constitutes skyrocketing. If a trend starts to appear long term fair enough, but dont extrapolate way into the future based on the results of one year). You said you read about these Brits who bemoaned the absence of hunting rifles in NRA literature. With due respect they're not going to be writing from an unbiased viewpoint.

Grimis, you say that what you originally meant re shooting intruders was that you would only do this if it was you or them. In the UK this situation is very rarely going to arise seeing as so few people (law abiding or criminal) have guns.
You misunderstood my point about preferring to face a mugger with a knife or bat than a gun. I was referring to him having said weapon not me. Our restrictive gun laws make it far harder for criminals to gain possession of guns.

And finally, you requested figures, I have some for you. In 2001 there were 417 gun related deaths in the UK, 62% of which were suicides. I dont have the exact figures yet for last year but working on the published increase of slightly <40% in gun crimes in the last year that would give a total of 560 gun deaths in the UK in 2002. Now in the USA on the other hand there were 28,874 deaths in 2001, 70 times more than in the UK over the same period and well over 50 times the projected figure I gave for the Uk in 2002.

The population of the UK is 60million give or take. Now unless there are 3000million in the States that means we have less gun related deaths.

I make no case for our gun laws being exported to the US as the issue of border control is considerably more complex over there. I do however firmly believe that a relaxing over our own laws to a more American based approach is not the solution to the recent spate of gun crime in the UK.

Thank you and goodnight.



"I tear my quadricep all the time. Heck I tore it this morning and I'm fine!" Kurt Angle

Undisputed Wiener of the day 6.11.02
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1178 days
Last activity: 975 days
#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
I'm going to try to respond to eight points at once, so bear with me...


    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    We appoint individuals to govern us, we appoint a large police force to act as protector for us. So, as you can see, your whole argument that "if you're a criminal, you deserve to be shot" is totally flawed, because if you shot a guy for breaking into your house, unless he had a gun pointed at you himself, then you'd be a criminal too. You would be taking a life, perhaps necessarily, but likely not.


Police have no obligation to provide personal protection of anybody. If you believe that cops protet you in the proactive way a weapon does, then go smoke another one. Please refer to the Supreme Court's decision in DeShaney v. Winnebago County Dep't of Social Services, and Balistreri v. Pacifica Police Department for more info.


    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    You don't worship guns? What's with the avatar pic? And the sig file? Or "guns cause crime like flies cause dogshit?" Why have you come up with clever euphemisms for death in almost every post on this thread? You've at the VERY least, put a lot of thought and energy into it.


Other avatar pics I have posted have included Ehrlich for Governor, the Washington Capitals, the Baltimore Ravens, The European Title, the Intercontinental Title, and Nestor the Long Eared Christmas Donkey. I don't think I worship any of these things.

As for "guns cause crime like flies cause dogshit?" It's a refuation for the juvenile argument that gun grabbers throw out there that crime would be reduced if guns were outlawed.

Oh by the way, want to know the number of guns I've fired in my life. ZERO




Tank: So what do you need? Besides a miracle.
Neo: Guns. Lots of guns.
The Matrix
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