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The W - Current Events & Politics - Britons on Gun Control
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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1300 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Click Here

Sure to evoke emotional conversation, though proving my point for me once again.



Tank: So what do you need? Besides a miracle.
Neo: Guns. Lots of guns.
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Bizzle Izzle
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Since: 26.6.02
From: New Jersey, USA

Since last post: 113 days
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#2 Posted on
Let me see if I understand this. Britain has outlawed guns. So now, only the outlaws have guns. Wow, I'm shocked. Just one more reason I'm glad I sent my check yesterday to extend my NRA membership for another 3 years.




Maiden RULES!!!
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 75 days
Last activity: 2 days
#3 Posted on
    Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle
    Let me see if I understand this. Britain has outlawed guns. So now, only the outlaws have guns. Wow, I'm shocked. Just one more reason I'm glad I sent my check yesterday to extend my NRA membership for another 3 years.


This reminds me of the pro-gun argument I heard some NRA guy come up with on the radio over here after some kids went crazy in America and shot some of their fellow students. The discussion went something like this.

Host: So how do you respond to people who point out that these kids were able to get guns legally through the system of gun control currently in place in the US? Surely this is an argument for more stringent restrictions on hand guns.

NRA guy: On the contrary, if we had more relaxed gun laws then the kids who were shot at could have had there own weapons and would have been able to defend themselves.

End of the day, no systems gonna be perfect, but check you're own backyard for the number of gun related deaths as compared to the UK before slagging us.

Edit: cos i posted half way through writing like the dumbass that I am

(edited by dMr on 8.1.03 2200)


"I tear my quadricep all the time. Heck I tore it this morning and I'm fine!" Kurt Angle

Undisputed Wiener of the day 6.11.02
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 32 days
Last activity: 3 hours
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.02
I hear "lets enforce the laws we have" from NRA folks all the time. I also hear "we already have 506 (or whatever) laws on the books already."

What I never do hear from these folks are which laws aren't being enforced, and ideas on how to do it. I'm definitely open to the idea of enforcing our existing laws instead of passing new ones, if it would help cut down gun violence, but I'd like some specifics.



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Aphrodite, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Spider-Man, and Boston.
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 137 days
Last activity: 8 days
#5 Posted on
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    I hear "lets enforce the laws we have" from NRA folks all the time. I also hear "we already have 506 (or whatever) laws on the books already."

    What I never do hear from these folks are which laws aren't being enforced, and ideas on how to do it. I'm definitely open to the idea of enforcing our existing laws instead of passing new ones, if it would help cut down gun violence, but I'd like some specifics.



I think that the gun lobby's point is that since the laws are not being enforced effectively, they either need to be enforced effectively or simply dropped. Their contention is that the laws are not now and will not ever be effective. And, they argue that passing new laws will result in even more ineffective, unenforced gun laws. The burden of proof is on the other party to explain why the new laws will change things or how we can effectively enforce the existing laws because we all agree that the laws we have now do not work.

A better question (but another one I'm sure you've heard before) is why anyone would think that making guns (or certain types of guns or ammo) illegal would prevent criminals (especially career criminals) from acquiring or keeping that gun/ammo? Why would someone who is trafficking drugs or committing armed robbery or murder or is involved in organized crime think 'Hmmmm...maybe I shouldn't use or even own this illegal weapon because I'll be breaking the law'?

(edited by Corajudo on 8.1.03 1812)
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#6 Posted on
Seriously- there is no doubt that the number of gun related deaths in this country far outweigh that in England, but look at the population difference for crying out loud!
One major problem with outlawing guns entirely is that is creates a black market, and does nothing but punish those who are NOT criminals by not allowing them to have a gun. For crying out loud, we can't even keep illegal immigrants and drugs out of this country, we sure as hell won't be able to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. I could get an ounce of pot in an hour if I were so inclined, and that is something that is supposedly banned as well.
So a gun is a weapon that could be used to kill someone. So is a knife, a match, a club, a car, an airplane, a shard of glass... and on and on and on. What does banning a gun accomplish in saving people's lives?
Take the whole Columbine "incident" for example. These were seriously disturbed kids who honestly felt that killing their fellow students was a really good idea. The GUN had nothing to do with the fact that they wanted to murder a ton of people. Hell, they were smart kids, if they could not get their hands on a gun I am sure they would have just made more pipe-bombs.
The anti-gun crowd's initial reaction to an event like this is to blame guns, and propose tighter legislation, while completely IGNORING the real problem. THE KIDS They committed murder. THE PARENTS, who let their kids get this fucked up in the first place. You can blame society, video games, McDonalds, or whatever you want for the violent nature of the world, but when it comes down to it, an individual is responsible for their own actions. And if they are a kid, their parents are responsible for teaching the kid right from wrong, and what is acceptable and what is just "fantasy."
Banning guns would do nothing but create an extra layer of administration, further complicate our laws, and accomplish nothing besides costing all of us more money. To me, it is nothing other than a proposal that would allow people to sluff off another responsibility on the government that is by all rights THEIR's.
Punish the murderer, and not the gun. It is the FORMER'S fault for the killing, not the latter.



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OlFuzzyBastard
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Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#7 Posted on
You know, I was going to try yet again to explain that "gun control" and "banning guns" are not the same thing and that no one is proposing the latter, but having this conversation with you people is the intellectual equivalent of an out-of-body experience (or having a heated arguement with one's own ass), so I'll just pass this time.




It's so sad when old friends fight.
Pool-Boy
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Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#8 Posted on
I do understand that there is a difference, and I will wholeheartedly agree that there are certain forms of weaponry that the public has no right to have.
But every time I hear a "gun control" argument, it seems like that all of the gun control legislation in the past is irrelavant. We keep passing this legislation, and the "gun problem" keeps getting worse.
My solution to the problem? Streamline the legalities. Classify every weapon in a series of letter-grades. Some Weapons are flat out illegal for a private citizen to own. Others are sorted into categories from small pistols to semi-automatic rifles.
Then, require a license to own a gun. Simple! Handle all of the backround checks, fingerprinting, etc during this process. Require an annual renewal if necessary. Then you can keep track of every person who owns a gun, and every gun purchased would be logged under that license number.
I still honestly believe that gun control legislation does absolutly nothing to curtail crime. If anything, it has gotten worse every time a new "gun bill" has passed.
Guns are not the problem. Criminals are the problem. Guns are a tool. If I need a hammer for something I want to do, and I can't find one, I will make due with what I can find. A wrench- a screwdriver... anything that will accomplish the job. If someone is looking to commit a crime with a gun, and cannot find one, they will make due and find something that WILL work.



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TheCow
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Since: 3.1.02
From: Knoxville, TN

Since last post: 2480 days
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#9 Posted on
Pool-Boy (this is scary), I agree with you on that. If someone wants something done (such as a murder), it's going to happen. Whether or not he or she has access to a gun is largely irrelevant in case. However, since everyone's got an "answer" to the gun problem, the only thing I ask is that somebody implement a solution that works. If it's using the laws and the means we have now, fine, do that. Just make sure it works. Everywhere. Pool-Boy, in your solution, just make sure you have a handle on the underground market. If the NRA says to enforce all the gun laws, fine. Let them help. (Although I do agree with you on your assessment of the Columbine reaction.)

I've always felt education is the answer to a lot of problems. Make sure people are aware of the gun laws (that are being enforced, if it's how you believe); if someone wants to buy a gun, make sure they understand the process thoroughly. If you have a tool, know how it works; same applies to a gun. If someone violates a gun law, tell them how they violated it. Make sure they understand what they did, and how to do it within the legal system (if it's possible). Will this stop problems with guns? No, and I know that. But it might stop repeat offenders (and people who are too lazy to learn).

EDIT: Yes, I'd help in this, too, once I understood the laws myself. (Don't plan on getting a gun anytime soon.)

(edited by TheCow on 9.1.03 0119)






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scabby
Bauerwurst








Since: 23.2.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 2432 days
Last activity: 2432 days
#10 Posted on

    Originally posted by TheCow
    Pool-Boy (this is scary), I agree with you on that. If someone wants something done (such as a murder), it's going to happen. Whether or not he or she has access to a gun is largely irrelevant in case.

    (edited by TheCow on 9.1.03 0119)



You're right.

I'm going to stop wiping my ass after taking a shit, cause it's just going to get dirty again anyways.





Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#11 Posted on

    Originally posted by scabby

      Originally posted by TheCow
      Pool-Boy (this is scary), I agree with you on that. If someone wants something done (such as a murder), it's going to happen. Whether or not he or she has access to a gun is largely irrelevant in case.

      (edited by TheCow on 9.1.03 0119)



    You're right.

    I'm going to stop wiping my ass after taking a shit, cause it's just going to get dirty again anyways.


Well, if wiping your ass was not getting the shit off in the first place, then why bother?
The point is that the gun laws are doing next to NOTHING. So instead of shooting (ha, shooting) for more, why not come up with a different solution?



My attempt at a webpage

Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1300 days
Last activity: 1096 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by TheCow
    I've always felt education is the answer to a lot of problems. Make sure people are aware of the gun laws (that are being enforced, if it's how you believe); if someone wants to buy a gun, make sure they understand the process thoroughly. If you have a tool, know how it works; same applies to a gun.

The NRA is actually in support of gun education. The problem is that gun grabbers really don't want to educate people on guns. We had a program in Maryland that was on the table to teach kids about the dangers of guns(NOT a pro-NRA tirade, but gun safety, what to do if you see a gun, etc.) and that left-wing yahoo Gov. Glendening vetoed the bill because he said such a bill would be an endorsement of guns and put more children in danger.

So the lessen from the Gov is: Education = danger



Tank: So what do you need? Besides a miracle.
Neo: Guns. Lots of guns.
The Matrix
scabby
Bauerwurst








Since: 23.2.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 2432 days
Last activity: 2432 days
#13 Posted on
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy

      Originally posted by scabby

        Originally posted by TheCow
        Pool-Boy (this is scary), I agree with you on that. If someone wants something done (such as a murder), it's going to happen. Whether or not he or she has access to a gun is largely irrelevant in case.

        (edited by TheCow on 9.1.03 0119)



      You're right.

      I'm going to stop wiping my ass after taking a shit, cause it's just going to get dirty again anyways.


    Well, if wiping your ass was not getting the shit off in the first place, then why bother?
    The point is that the gun laws are doing next to NOTHING. So instead of shooting (ha, shooting) for more, why not come up with a different solution?



Agreed. However, I do not think the solution is for everyone to have a gun, or to have access to buy guns at their leisure.

I wrote my previous post in jest. My point was that saying "people will kill regardless of whether they have a gun or not, so we shouldn't have gun laws" is opening a pretty big can of worms. If that is the case, then why not outlaw murder or rape? It's just going to happen anyways if someone wants to do it badly enough, right?

Guns don't commit crimes on their own, but they sure make it a lot easier to rob someone, rape someone or murder someone.

I understand people have very strong views when it comes to gun control, and I respect them. I just don't know why some people want to facilitate ownership of a tool that is designed for harming living things to any random person.



(edited by scabby on 9.1.03 0537)

(edited by scabby on 9.1.03 0540)



OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 26 days
Last activity: 18 hours
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#14 Posted on

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Some Weapons are flat out illegal for a private citizen to own. Others are sorted into categories from small pistols to semi-automatic rifles.
    Then, require a license to own a gun. Simple! Handle all of the backround checks, fingerprinting, etc during this process. Require an annual renewal if necessary. Then you can keep track of every person who owns a gun, and every gun purchased would be logged under that license number.



Well, Jeebus, Pool-Boy, that's all the gun control people are asking for! What are you arguing about?




It's so sad when old friends fight.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1300 days
Last activity: 1096 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by scabby
    I just don't know why some people want to facilitate ownership of a tool that is designed for harming living things to any random person.


Mainly for protecting ones self from those intent on harming living things or any random person....

....and vaporizing Bambi for dinner(I'm KIDDING; I've never had venison)



Tank: So what do you need? Besides a miracle.
Neo: Guns. Lots of guns.
The Matrix
calvinh0560
Boudin rouge








Since: 3.1.02
From: People's Republic of Massachusetts

Since last post: 591 days
Last activity: 2 hours
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by scabby
      I just don't know why some people want to facilitate ownership of a tool that is designed for harming living things to any random person.


    Mainly for protecting ones self from those intent on harming living things or any random person....

    ....and vaporizing Bambi for dinner(I'm KIDDING; I've never had venison)



Plus keeping the king of England off your front lawn
But seriously people own guns to hunt, protection, some people collect them. There are plenty of reasons to own a gun even if it is not for everyone.
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#17 Posted on
This is a valid point- historically speaking, there is a coorelation between taking away the arms of a people and also taking away their rights.
China is a classic example....



My attempt at a webpage

TheCow
Landjager








Since: 3.1.02
From: Knoxville, TN

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#18 Posted on
At no point was I saying that we shouldn't have gun laws.

You know, there was a reason we had the whole 2nd Amendment, too. Didn't Britain attempt to ban the colonists from having guns, or am I off?

OFB, you know everyone here just loves reading their own words.







Which Neglected Mario Character Are You?

dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 75 days
Last activity: 2 days
#19 Posted on

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Seriously- there is no doubt that the number of gun related deaths in this country far outweigh that in England, but look at the population difference for crying out loud!
    One major problem with outlawing guns entirely is that is creates a black market, and does nothing but punish those who are NOT criminals by not allowing them to have a gun.



OK, I'll rephrase my initial point. Compare the number of gun related deaths injuries per 1000 head of poulation and the UK and the US. You guys are so far ahead (if thats the right word) of us its not even funny. It made headline news over here when a gun went of in an armed robbery and NOBODY was injured. Thats how rare gun crime still is over here in spite of the recent increases.

Personally I dont feel punished in the slightest by not being allowed to own a gun. Somebody breaks into my flat, fuck it I'm insured, better let them take what they want than me have a gun there and potentially shoot some kid.

I've also never been a fan of the argument that if you make something illegal you just create a black market for said product/service. Thats what the police are there for, to shut these markets down. theres a rare old worldwide black market for hitmen, but you dont legalise murder so you control there movements and tax their income.

Course every country's different. As an island, its considerably easier for the UK to keep its borders tight than it is in the US. Stricter gun control laws may not be as applicable in your country as they are in mine. But I damn sure took offense to Bizzle suggesting all was rosy across the Atlantic and that we Brits were some bunch of pinky liberal idiots.

like you say, guns don't kill people; people kill people. But until we're better able to address the problems that lead muderers to kill, surely by tightening gun control you'll at least make things harder for them?



"I tear my quadricep all the time. Heck I tore it this morning and I'm fine!" Kurt Angle

Undisputed Wiener of the day 6.11.02
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1300 days
Last activity: 1096 days
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
DmR, I think you just won the award for na´vetÚ....


    Originally posted by dMr
    Somebody breaks into my flat, fuck it I'm insured, better let them take what they want than me have a gun there and potentially shoot some kid.


Hard to collect insurance money once you're dead. Besides, if a person breaks into my domicile they get whatevers coming to them, which is probably a slug in the temple.


    Originally posted by dMr
    I've also never been a fan of the argument that if you make something illegal you just create a black market for said product/service. Thats what the police are there for, to shut these markets down


Man that worked on illicit drugs didn't it....


    Originally posted by dMr
    like you say, guns don't kill people; people kill people. But until we're better able to address the problems that lead muderers to kill, surely by tightening gun control you'll at least make things harder for them?


Good luck. People kill for tons of reasons and will kill with whatever implement of destruction they can find.



Tank: So what do you need? Besides a miracle.
Neo: Guns. Lots of guns.
The Matrix
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