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The W - Pro Wrestling - Bret Responds to RAW (Page 3)
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rlbehan
Chipolata








Since: 6.7.02
From: Albany

Since last post: 6708 days
Last activity: 5491 days
#41 Posted on
It does not take much to get the Montreal crowd to start chanting "You screwed Brett". Personally, I thought the whole segment was great, and a lot of fun. It might have been cheap heat at times, but if cheap heat is good enough for Mick Foley, it should be good enough for the whole WWE! As for Brett not being apologized to, or being apologized to, or returning or not returning. I really am not interested. A heartfelt hug in the ring in Montreal after a Vince apology to Brett perhaps? Come on. If Brett gets enough $ to come back and have Vince beat the crap out of him in Montreal, he'll do it.
YossinoIC
Cotechino








Since: 28.6.03
From: Massachusetts

Since last post: 7502 days
Last activity: 7292 days
#42 Posted on

    Originally posted by rlbehan
    If Brett gets enough $ to come back and have Vince beat the crap out of him in Montreal, he'll do it.


I really doubt that. If he ever does accept an offer to make a one time appearance or return I doubt he'd allow himself to get booked into a segment where Vince gets the upperhand on him. While money does talk in wrestling, Bret seems very content with staying at home and doing the occasional WWA show or indy appearance. It seems Vince would have to make some kind of an amazing offer to warrant Bret to agree to return.
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 6706 days
Last activity: 6706 days
#43 Posted on
Bret doesn't need money thanks to Eric Bischoff's irresponsible use of Ted Turner's checkbook. At least he didn't give Bret 25% of the gross of every PPV he was on like he did to somebody.

He's said the only reason he could think of for coming back would be to say goodbye to his fans on the biggest platform possible. But he's worried it'd somehow be looked at as an angle or turned into an angle and he doesn't want that.

JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01

Since last post: 1764 days
Last activity: 1416 days
#44 Posted on
"If Brett gets enough $ to come back and have Vince beat the crap out of him in Montreal, he'll do it."

Bret doesn't want to turn his real life into one big wrestling angle, plus he is not physically able to stand for long periods of time, let alone wrestle. I don't think him showing up to say goodbye is out of the question now that Vince is trying to make amends with all of his lifelong deadly foes, but stuff like the Highlight Reel on Monday (the most backwards, purposeless, useless segment on Raw in approx. a dog's age) isn't going to bring them any closer.
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 3516 days
Last activity: 3516 days
#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
"If you, as an average every day employee somewhere (excepting anyone here who is an owner of a business) put in 13 years at a company and were screwed like he was, I guarantee you'd bitch about it every time you had the chance. I worked at a place 4 years and got screwed and am still bitching about it to anyone who will listen."

If you, as an employer, spent 13 years molding a worker and giving him the forum and medium to become a star in his field, one of the most sought after in the world, and were thanked by said employee refusing do return the favor when it came time for him to move on, wouldn't you try to get something in return for the investment you made?
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01

Since last post: 1764 days
Last activity: 1416 days
#46 Posted on
"refusing do return the favor when it came time for him to move on"

He never, ever refused to drop the belt before leaving.
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 5431 days
Last activity: 5365 days
#47 Posted on
"If you, as an average every day employee somewhere (excepting anyone here who is an owner of a business) put in 13 years at a company and were screwed like he was, I guarantee you'd bitch about it every time you had the chance."

...except he was no longer one of their employees at the time.

What pisses me off most about this whole debate is the pro-Bret crowd acting as if he gained NOTHING from the WWF for the entire time he worked for them, and was stabbed in the back after giving his entire life to the company with nothing in return. That's so not true that it isn't even funny. Bret was constantly pushed as the top star, he looked strong in pretty much every way for about six years straight and for the longest time he WWF Legendary Figure Number Two, right behind Hogan. The fact that the man let his personal rancour toward Michaels run roughshod over doing business properly was wrong. And let's face it, his dislike of the man is all that lay behidn his refusal to job. Michaels was a bona fide ME player by that point, the match would've been super-hot and a perfect send-off to Bret's WWF career. And don't throw Michaels' political history in my face, because that has no relevance; treating him the way he treated others has no justification, and makes Bret just as bad, in my book.

And I don't particularly condone Vince's acitons, either. it was a pretty dumbass thing to do in that situation, and was totally unprofessional. But Bret's-and his fans'-reaction to it was pathetic. Instead of shrugging it off, proclaiming McMahon as "Bush league" as ever and going to WCW to earn massive bucks, he acted like he was part of a Greek tragedy. It seemed as though the line between fantasy and reality, workplace and real world, became blurred.



I Took The Father, I'll Take The Son

darkmatcher
Bockwurst








Since: 12.2.03
From: New York, USA

Since last post: 6120 days
Last activity: 5195 days
#48 Posted on
    Originally posted by minextoo
    Finally someone talking some sense!!

    It amazes me how close-minded and stupid most smark fans are about the whole Montreal thing.



Puh, and here I was thinking that most smark fans supported Bret Hart.

Has Bret whined a little bit about it since it happened? Yes, all the time. That's no reason to convict, sentence and fry the guy.--

Did I miss something? Who's done that?

So Vince booked the title on Bret, knowing he was going to leave and didn't take it off him for three whole months! He took the freaking Euro title off of Bulldog in preparation for this, but he couldn't take the World title off Bret?!!!--

I think you're failing to understand that Vince IS ultimately the boss, its his business, and he WILL ultimately get whatever he wants. Whether anyone likes it or not. I'm certainly not condoning him, but its a fact.
And after 15 years as a dedicatd employee, I don't see how Bret failed to understand it.

And I love everyone who makes Michaels out to be either an angel or innocent in the whole thing.--

Ok, WHO THE FUCK HAS BEEN DOING THAT??? Really. Are you referring to the board I'm currently reading where most seem to typically share your "HBK IS THE DEVIL THE CANCER THE OPPRESSOR" view?

Maybe at first, he was. But that crap on Confidential was about as moronic as anyone who uses it to defend Michaels. Let's see, yes, I am sure that God will defend you being immoralistic by cheating, lying and stealing as long as you are submitting to authority... Anyone who buys this born-again christian stuff from probably the most heinous cheating, manipulating asshole in the history of the business (Trips is getting close)isn't worth my time.--

Well, since its obvious that you know so damn much about the guy, can you atleast tell me what this horrible human happens to sleep in? ;)

(edited by darkmatcher on 13.7.03 0323)


what you say
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 3516 days
Last activity: 3516 days
#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42

    Originally posted by JMShapiro
    "refusing do return the favor when it came time for him to move on"

    He never, ever refused to drop the belt before leaving.



He said he wouldn't drop it to Michaels. That is a refusal if I ever heard one.
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 6706 days
Last activity: 6706 days
#50 Posted on
"There is documentation in the form of lawyer correspondence from that time period which specifically states Hart had agreed to lose the belt once out of Canada and his contract did give him equal creative control of his character as Vince so the boss-employee argument also doesn't fit as it was a 50-50 based on his unique contract that Vince agreed to to get him from going to WCW the previous year." - Dave Meltzer's Saturday Update.

He also went into another whole rant on the thing which is a really good read, http://www.liveaudiowrestling.com/wo/news/headlines/default.asp?aID=7894.

JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01

Since last post: 1764 days
Last activity: 1416 days
#51 Posted on
"And don't throw Michaels' political history in my face, because that has no relevance"

No relevance aside from the fact that it's the whole cause behind everything.

"He said he wouldn't drop it to Michaels. That is a refusal if I ever heard one."

Temper check. OK.

I *said* he never refused to DROP THE TITLE BEFORE HE LEFT, i.e. "I am leaving and I will not lose this belt to anyone." It's a reason fabricated by Vince to justify himself. Bret agreed to drop the title in Springfield in December in a four-way and even got permission from Bischoff to allow him to work until the next PPV after his WWF contract expired.

I could've sworn I wrote all this before -- in this thread.
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 5431 days
Last activity: 5365 days
#52 Posted on
"No relevance aside from the fact that it's the whole cause behind everything."

Yes, I'm sure Shawn's antagonism was the sole cause of all the bitterness between them.

Shawn was a lying, political asshole. That's all fair and good. Bret didn't have to sink to his level and tarnish HIS reputation by refusing to do something that, really, should be all in a day's work.

"I *said* he never refused to DROP THE TITLE BEFORE HE LEFT"

Witness the Iron-Man Match at WMXII. Both guys refused to job first, hence the ridiculous "overtime" deal.

"and even got permission from Bischoff to allow him to work until the next PPV after his WWF contract expired."

The same Eric Bischoff who constantly used every cheap tactic he could in waging war on the WWF. The man had no bounaries when it came to what would do to gain the upper hand. He already had Bret locked to a deal-what was stopping him from crowing about it at the first opportunity.

I mean, Christ! I'm not even proclaiming Bret to have brought all this upon himself and labelling Vince a hero! Vince was an ass! Bret was my favourite wrestler of the nineties! But he is not-NOT-without blame in any of this!






I Took The Father, I'll Take The Son

The Vile1
Lap cheong








Since: 4.9.02
From: California

Since last post: 5456 days
Last activity: 5188 days
#53 Posted on
While we can debate for another fifty posts over who deserves the blame and all that jazz, what does this have to do with "Bret Hart getting over it." It seems for all intents and purposes that Bret Hart has gotten over it and seemingly buried the hatchet with Vince McMahon and reach some sort of truce/between the two. While WWE likes to constantly dredge up and re-create the surivor series incident, it does make one wonder, do the fans and Bret Hart need to get over it or does Vince McMahon and the WWE? I think in Vince McMahon's sick, perverse little mind he likes to constantly redo the stupid angle and talk about it over and over again as a reminder that what happened at Survivor Series 1997 instigated the company going back on top in 1998.




"Just a humble bounty hunter, ma'am."
-Spike Spiegel
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01

Since last post: 1764 days
Last activity: 1416 days
#54 Posted on
Listen one more time to what I am trying to say.


Bret Hart

did not

refuse

to drop

the WWF

World

Heavyweight

Wrestling

Championship

before

he

left.

As in, he was not intending to leave before losing the belt. He did refuse to lose to Michaels in Montreal. But he was not refusing to drop the title to anyone. Blah blah blah well ya do what the boss says -- sorry, he and Vince both had to agree to decisions thanks to the contract. And he and Vince did agree on how the title would be dropped. But Vince decided to break those agreements.

"Yes, I'm sure Shawn's antagonism was the sole cause of all the bitterness between them."

You said it was a non-issue in the discussion when it's anything but, considering all of 1997 revolved around Hart and Michaels' heat with one another keeping them from working together.



"The same Eric Bischoff who constantly used every cheap tactic he could in waging war on the WWF."

What does that have to do with Bret not dropping the title? Bischoff would give him permission to work the PPV and drop the belt, and then take it away? Ha ha, gotcha? No, it doesn't quite work that way. Was Bret going to doublecross Vince and show up on Nitro with the belt? Not without incurring a huge lawsuit.

(edited by JMShapiro on 13.7.03 1333)
BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 327 days
Last activity: 327 days
#55 Posted on
It shouldn't matter. Vince says drop the belt than you should drop the fucking belt. Bret didn't want to drop it on his home soil? -- give me a fucking break he's from Alberta not Montreal. That's as absurd as someone like Stone Cold refusing to drop the belt in NY because he is from Texas. The guy got screwed out of a fake fighting title, and he still wants an apology. Get over it it's a business.



oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 5431 days
Last activity: 5365 days
#56 Posted on
So your entire argument for blindly defending Bret is that he didn't refuse to drop the WWF Title before he left. Don't you think that's kinda...shortsighted? Bischoff had a verbal agreement to not announce Bret as a signee whilst he was still champion-ie. going on Nitro and crowing for twenty minutes about stealing away the rival company's top player right out from under their noses. WHile this has nothing to do with Bret not wanting to drop the title in montreal, it DOES have to do with the fact that he'd be on WWF television for another MONTH after the Montreal match. You think Bisch would've sat on top of such a tempting fact? Of course not. The whole situation was such a ridiculous mess for EVERYBODY to get themselves into that it was bound to end badly for at least one of them. And, as I have said before, I don't class Bret's reasoning behind his reluctance to do the job in Canada as particularly valid. if he'd dropped the strap as asked-in what I'm sure could've been a face-saving finish if they booked it right-there'd have been no issue whatsoever. So who's causing the problem here? The WRESTLER-not the booker-who's trying to dictate his own booking. And for me, I don't agree with that in ANY situation.




I Took The Father, I'll Take The Son

fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 6706 days
Last activity: 6706 days
#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
The Shawn "knee injury" prior to WrestleMania 13 is probably enough reason alone for Bret never to job to Michaels again.

Think of how out of control Shawn was that he couldn't lie to Bret's face when Bret asked him if he'd ever return to the favor. He told him no then came back later crying with Vince about how he meant to say yes.

See if it were Shawn Michaels leaving for WCW, Vince probably would have been a little more justified in his bogus rationale.
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 5431 days
Last activity: 5365 days
#58 Posted on
This is ridiculous. These bizarre codes of honour that permeate the on-screen wrestling world seem to have seeped into the backstage area-and what's more, we think they're totally valid! "You faked a knee injury, so I won't job to you!" What the Hell kind of bullshit IS that?! If Bret were any kind of professional adult, he'd have simply said "WHo gives a fuck, it ain't my job any more", rose above the whole damn thing and rode off to WCW. Of course, what happened THERE...well, that's another story.

Fact.

Fiction.

Separate 'em.



I Took The Father, I'll Take The Son

JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01

Since last post: 1764 days
Last activity: 1416 days
#59 Posted on
"Vince says drop the belt than you should drop the fucking belt"

sup fucking Creative fucking Control giving him a fucking contractual right not to, whether you agree with him or not.


"So your entire argument for blindly defending Bret is that he didn't refuse to drop the WWF Title before he left."

No, my entire reason for posting in this thread is because I just can't help myself, cuz it's full of morons who keep saying stupid stuff. Such as Bret refusing to DO BUSINESS THE RIGHT WAY~! and drop the title on his way out, when that's blatantly wrong information that gets repeated way too often. If Vince didn't want Bret to drop the title in Springfield, maybe he shouldn't have ... agreed to that?

(edited by JMShapiro on 13.7.03 1347)
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 5431 days
Last activity: 5365 days
#60 Posted on
A very good point. However, when Vince did put forth the possibility of Bret dropping the strap in Montreal he shot down the idea immediately. You act as though the
scenario was never brought up between the two.



I Took The Father, I'll Take The Son

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He hasn't been in the WWE for very long now. And he has got 2 PPV title shots in a row. He was sort of popular, but I think he mainly flopped. Now he is fighting...........CHRISTIAN?!?!?! Wow, they really gave up on him. Fine with me......
- ShotGunShep, Steiner=Worthless (2003)
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