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The W - Football - Brad Childress Fired (Page 2)
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odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 37 days
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.53

Nolan Ryan, is I believe, first in strikeouts and walks and he is in Cooperstown.



Mark Coale
Odessa Steps Magazine
ISSUE FOUR - OCTOBER 2009
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 13 hours
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.55
I want to believe Brett Favre isn't a Hall-of-Famer, but I just can't go that far. But he's definitely not nearly as great as his legacy.

I don't doubt that in at least a handful of seasons, he was one of the two or three best quarterbacks in the league, and in a few seasons the single best. But he made about as many bad decisions as any "good" quarterback I've ever seen. He won a Super Bowl forever ago, I know, but for most of his career he has been a turnover machine in big games.

But those seasons in which he was good were probably enough to get him into Canton. I guess.



Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 361 days
Last activity: 321 days
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.69
    Originally posted by odessasteps

    Nolan Ryan, is I believe, first in strikeouts and walks and he is in Cooperstown.

Also the batter who struck out the most times in his career was Reggie Jackson, who was voted into the baseball Hall of Fame by 93.6% of voters in his first year of eligibility.

I think the point is that people who play a long time do a lot of good things, as well as a lot of bad things, which will be represented in the cumulative statistics.

I will grant that Favre is going to have the 4th or 5th worst adjusted interception rate when he is elected to Canton (behind Blanda, Bradshaw, Namath and possibly Jim Kelly).
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 13 hours
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.55
Strikeouts for a hitter and and walks for a pitcher are hardly comparable to interceptions. More like incomplete passes. Interceptions are more like errors: Some don't end up hurting you, most hurt you a bit but not in some insurmountable way, but when they happen at the wrong time they can be soul crushing. Brett Favre produced many turnovers of the soul-crushing variety.

EDIT: I realize my same description could probably apply to strikeouts, but the point is, strikeouts and walks are both such basic a part of the game that they are inevitable and wins and losses can't really be said to be the result of one single at-bat. Errors, on the other hand, are much less frequent and therefore less accepted as inevitable.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 22.11.10 2247)


odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 37 days
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.53

To me, W/K ratio for a pitcher would similar to a TD/INT ratio for a QB and similar to A/TO ratio for a point guard.



Mark Coale
Odessa Steps Magazine
ISSUE FOUR - OCTOBER 2009
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.55
Here are some quarterbacks' career TD/INT ratios:

Brett Favre: 507/333 = 1.52
Peyton Manning: 386/188 = 2.05
Tom Brady: 244/103 = 2.37
Donovan McNabb: 226/112 = 2.02
Rich Gannon: 180/104 = 1.74

It doesn't seem like that stat speaks well of Favre, but I admit this is a small sample. But those are four of the very best of his contemporaries.



RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.17
odessasteps: Nolan Ryan, is I believe, first in strikeouts and walks and he is in Cooperstown.

7 no hitters and kicking Ventura's ass trumps a few bad ump calls

All-time interception leaders:

Favre: 333 and counting

George Blanda: 277 and dead. But he scored a whole bunch of points

POSTSEASON PERFORMANCES

All-time postseason interception leaders:

Favre: 28

peeeyeeew


odessasteps: To me, W/K ratio for a pitcher would similar to a TD/INT ratio for a QB and similar to A/TO ratio for a point guard.

Well,, I'm sure somebody has studied that - I'll look it up tomorrow. But that can't be right. Walk = double play possibility, maybe a score.

Interception = shame for the QB and the Receiver. Shame on the Coach - shame on the ref. Nothing but bad news

FLEA


One more post and we should take this to another thread maybe - I'm curious re: the walks vs. interception

(edited by RYDER FAKIN on 22.11.10 2341)


Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high








Due to not believing IN THE LAKERS, Frosty is walking around with $20 of my money!
odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 37 days
Last activity: 4 days
#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.53

More Ryan stats:

324-292 .526
ERA 3.19
WHIP 1.247
K/BB 2.04

Personally, I think Ryan is slightly overrated, but still a pitching marvel and deserving of HOF.

I don't like Favre, but wouldn't argue he is not HOF worthy.





Mark Coale
Odessa Steps Magazine
ISSUE FOUR - OCTOBER 2009
Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.55
The Nolan Ryan/Brett Favre comparison is spot-on, by the way. Two awesome, awesome players who aren't capital-A All Time Greats but seem like it thanks to media hype.

INTs can also not always be a quarterback's fault --- tipped pass, a receiver misses a route, it's a pick thrown at the end of the half in a wild hail mary attempt, etc.

Favre is definitely a HOFer, but the fact that that silly NFL Network top 100 list had him at #20 ever is ridiculous. Just in terms of quarterbacks alone, I'd rather have Brady, Elway, Bradshaw, Warner, Young or even ringless Marino in a big game over Favre.

    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    Big Bad: It was totally worth it since Tavaris Jackson IS TERRIBLE. Has everyone forgotten this fact? Wasn't everyone saying that the Vikings desperately needed a quarterback like Favre if they were going to contend, and lo and behold, Favre took them to the cusp of the NFC title last year.

    If Jackson had still been the starting QB, the Vikings would've had another 9-7ish season in 2009, just good enough to keep Chilly around. This year he would've been fired anyway and then Tavaris would've been out anyway.


    The way I remember, it was the Vikings last year who were the odds on favorite to make the Super Bowl WITH Jackson as QB. Which beget the Favre drama and the coup-de-gra with an interception that sealed their fate. That was my perfect moment


Granted, Favre wasn't the only big addition to the 2009 Vikings --- Jared Allen, Percy Harvin, etc. But come on, do you seriously think that Jackson could've avoided screwing up enough for that team to get to the NFC title game? Favre was fantastic last season, NFC Championship aside. Do you think the Cardinals last year should've said, "Hey Kurt, we appreciate the Super Bowl berth and all, but we're going to bench you so Leinart can get some reps."




(edited by Big Bad on 22.11.10 2348)
GodEatGod
Boudin rouge








Since: 28.2.02

Since last post: 14 days
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.44
Everything about Childress being fired is probably said by this thread becoming all about Favre. Chili will wake up in a cold sweat with Wrangler nightmares for years to come.



"Never piss off a hawk with a blowgun" - Conan O'Brien
Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 361 days
Last activity: 321 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.69
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    Interceptions are more like errors:


For your sake I spent about an hour trying to figure out who had the most errors in their career. It's tough because baseball history goes back so far, and errors happened so much more then than they do now. There's no chance anyone ever has the chance to accumulate 1086 errors like Herman Long had between 1889 and 1904. So I adjusted everyone's errors by how common the error rate was each year. I didn't have an easy way to check everyone in baseball, but I checked a lot of the people who were the active leaders at various times throughout history, and the highest I found was Luke Appling, who had the 2010 equivalent of 401 errors between 1930 and 1950. And luckily for me Luke Appling is *also* a Hall of Famer, so that one again proves my point!
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 13 hours
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.55
I do think Brett Favre is a hall of famer. I just think he has no business within about 20 to 30 names of the discussion for best quarterback of all time. And I think 20 to 30 might be generous.



TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.43
Here, off the top of my head, is a list of quarterbacks whose careers overlapped some or all of Favre's career who I would take on my team over Favre. This list is in no particular order, and I may be leaving someone off who I'm forgetting:

Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, John Elway, Steve Young, Joe Montana, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers, Jim Kelly.

I think Favre and Elway are pretty similar, because I think Elway is another guy who is pretty overrated, but I would rather have Elway because he spent his career coming up big in tight spots. Brett Favre spent his career blowing games for his team in tight spots.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 23.11.10 2048)


redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 388 days
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.91
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    Here, off the top of my head, is a list of quarterbacks whose careers overlapped some or all of Favre's career who I would take on my team over Favre. This list is in no particular order, and I may be leaving someone off who I'm forgetting:

    Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, John Elway, Steve Young, Joe Montana, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers, Jim Kelly.

    I think Favre and Elway are pretty similar, because I think Elway is another guy who is pretty overrated, but I would rather have Elway because he spent his career coming up big in tight spots. Brett Favre spent his career blowing games for his team in tight spots.

    (edited by TheBucsFan on 23.11.10 2048)






You'd take Favre over Moon, Marino and Aikman?
Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 361 days
Last activity: 321 days
#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.69
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    I do think Brett Favre is a hall of famer. I just think he has no business within about 20 to 30 names of the discussion for best quarterback of all time. And I think 20 to 30 might be generous.

I think you might be equating Brett Favre in his decline years with Brett Favre as a whole. I think if Favre had retired in 2004 at the age of 35 he'd be looked at a lot more favorably now.

I wrote up a thing defending Brett Favre, but after researching it, I'm not so sure anymore. Like old-time baseball writers, I may have been seduced by gaudy stats that had more to do with the team than Favre himself. And ironically enough, I think I've decided that Favre actually deteriorated quicker than most other QBs. I do want to add that Brett Favre is in a club with only Peyton Manning and Jim Taylor as the people with more than 2 AP MVP awards.

I made a chart of Brett Favre (and the other QBs you've mentioned) Defense-Adjusted Yards Above Replacement rank according to footballoutsiders.com going back to 1993. https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tEdusr6QsvVo7jzMLmijxgg&hl=en#
When you compare people at the same age, you see Favre actually declined sooner than most of them did. I still think 8 seasons as a top 5 QB (and 15 as an average or better QB) is pretty good.

As for comparisons with the guys you mention:
1. Brady and Manning are obviously great QBs. I think t the majority of people will place them ahead of Favre when all is said and done.
2. Elway, Young, and Montana all retired at a time when they were still great QBs. The fact that they kept their quality seasons going past 35 is what's made me question Favre. He has had 3 great seasons, 4 slightly above average seasons, and 2 bad seasons in the last 9. Marino also did good at an older age, but he definitely overstayed his welcome by the end.
3. I'll have to disagree with you about Roethlisberger. I think winning 2 Super Bowls has given him more credit than he deserves.
4. I think Brees and Aikman compare pretty evenly with Favre for the years they completed. Would I take 25 year old Drew Brees over 34 year old Brett Favre? Sure, but I don't know if that's a fair comparison. At the same age they're pretty comparable.
5. I'll put Philip Rivers ahead of Roethlisberger, but he still hasn't had enough good years to rank with any of these other guys.
6. I think with Warner you forgot how bad he was from 2002-2006. It sure seemed at the time that his early success in St. Louis had more to do with the system than it did with him. That he salvaged that into some pretty good seasons north of 35 years old is pretty amazing.
and 7. I think you also misjudge how good (or not) Jim Kelly was by the time Brett Favre became a starting QB.
Llakor
Landjager








Since: 2.1.02
From: Montreal, Quebec, CANADA

Since last post: 470 days
Last activity: 462 days
AIM:  
#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.51
Isn't Jim Kelly underrated because he had some very good years in the USFL that get overlooked?

Same with Warren Moon and his CFL years.

(I also wonder how well Anthony Calvillo would have done if he had been given a real shot in the NFL. His career CFL numbers are pretty gaudy.)
http://www.cfl.ca/roster/show?id=16

Is someone interested in looking at Ground into Double Play leaders? That would be comparable to an interception right?

...

...

...

Oh hell, I'll do it myself:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/higidp1.shtml

Cal Ripken Jr., Pudge, Hammering Hank, Yaz and Dave Winfield are the top 5. Only Pudge is not in the Hall of Fame and that is because he is not eligible yet.

Here is runs allowed by Pitchers:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/pitching/pi_runs_allowed1.shtml

Not quite as conclusive but number one on the list is Cy Young the man that the award for Best Pitching is named after. Ryan is #11, Steve Carlton is #12.

Hoe Runs Allowed:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/pitching/pi_runs_allowed1.shtml

Frank Tanana, Jamie Moyer and Warren Spahn. Not a bad list especially Spahn)

Most Losses by a Pitcher (although we seem to have moved past Wins and Losses)
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/pitching/piloss1.shtml

Conclusion: Career stats in bad things are not a valid reason to conclude that a player should or should not be in the Hall of Fame.




"Don't Blame CANADA, Blame Yourselves!"
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 13 hours
Last activity: 8 hours
#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.43
I think the only thing demonstrated is that there's nothing in baseball comparable to an interception, because there's nothing in baseball that immediately turns you from offense to defense, scoring to giving up points.

I chose errors earlier because it's one of the few things in baseball I could think of where a mistake by one team can lead directly to points for the other, but it's still not a good comparison.

Brett Favre isn't as good as his reputation because for more than half of his career he has been a liability rather than a benefit for his team at times when a big play is needed. I've seen more interceptions from Brett Favre throwing into double coverage in a single season than I've seen from Peyton Manning in his entire career.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 24.11.10 1320)


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The best was he had the leg but then he broke his hand which led to the comical attempts of him trying to catch the snaps with one hand. Still - as amazingly shitty as Matt Allen was, I can't believe they didn't give him another shot in training camp.
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