For a minute, I thought Ausmus hadn't scored from second on the hit, thus making Biggio's dash for second an inning-ender and thus hella-lame.
I was looking at the members of the 3000-hit club and it's a pretty illustrious list. What stands out, and no disrespect to Biggio on this, but of the 27 members of the 3000-hit club, he is by far the worst player. All of those other guys are no-doubt Hall of Famers, while Biggio is a 'yeah, I guess he's Hall' kind of guy.
EDIT: Ok, I guess Palmeiro isn't a slam-dunk HOFer since there's no way in hell he's getting in. And Lou Brock isn't in the Hall? What the?!
REEDIT: Thanks, TheOldMan. I thought I was going crazy for a second there. I must've missed his name on the list I looked at.
Originally posted by Big BadI was looking at the members of the 3000-hit club and it's a pretty illustrious list. What stands out, and no disrespect to Biggio on this, but of the 27 members of the 3000-hit club, he is by far the worst player. All of those other guys are no-doubt Hall of Famers, while Biggio is a 'yeah, I guess he's Hall' kind of guy.
By far the worst player? So, you can definitively show that guys from a different era like Paul Waner, Cap Anson, or Nap LaJoie were head and shoulders above Biggio? And, you'd argue that players like Boggs, Gwynn, Palmeiro (steroids aside) and Molitor (don't get me wrong, Molitor is my favorite player of all time, but he was a DH for almost half his career) were also far better?
I'm not saying that Biggio is necessarily better than Boggs, Gwynn, Palmeiro and Molitor. My argument is that he is at least comparable, especially when you consider that Biggio put up most of his hitting numbers at one of the most defensively important and demanding positions, while also being a great fielder.
"Teach children that they have great potential because they are human." -Warrior
I was just doing some calculations on just this subject. I started with Baseball Prospectus' WARP3 stat, which is Wins Above Replacement Player, adjusted for ballparks, adjusted for the strength of the team, adjusted for the offensive climate of the league that year. I divided that by the number of games each player played in.
Among 2B, Biggio's current WARP/Gm of .0449 puts him ahead of HoFs Johnny Evers, Nellie Fox, and Red Schoenendienst, but behind the 13 other HOF 2Bs. Overall, he ranks 105 out of 150 non-pitching HOFs (or soon to be HOF, or people who should be in but are banned).
So by that metric, yeah, he is the worst of the people with 3000 hits. Now, I don't believe this number takes defensive ability into account. But I don't think doing that is going to change things appreciably.
I really like Biggio (baseball-reference.com) as a player - always have, and I would have loved to have seen him more. As a guy, he was seemingly decent from my perspective, anyway. I just can't see him in the HOF. If 3000 hits is the end-all-be-all milestone that enshrines....so be it. Palmiero, also. Both of those guys were always solid players. Looking at Biggio's stat page though, he led the league:
Runs - 2 times PA - 5 times Games - 3 times SB - 1 time 2B - 3 times HBP - 5 times TOB - 1 time
He is also the active leader in career HBP, doubles, at-bats, and hits - impressive enough. He finished twice in the NL MVP voting top five, with a fifth and fourth place. I can't compare him to the old-time players Corajudo mentioned (not as old as The Old Man, so I never saw them play), but IMO, he's a notch below Ryno, and a notch above Kent - who is not a HOF to me. Hall of Fame second basemen are few and far between, and I don't really recall seeing many at all in my years of watching baseball. Objectively (which I always try to be, by telling myself that as great as my favorite all-time player Donnie Baseball was for 6 years straight, he's not a HOF player), I think Biggio will get in, but I just don't see him as an all-time great...I just never had him in my "he is one of the 10 best players in baseball right now" list, though he might have been one of the better, or best, second baseman in the game many years.
Originally posted by jfkfcI just never had him in my "he is one of the 10 best players in baseball right now" list, though he might have been one of the better, or best, second baseman in the game many years.
He's among the best 2nd basemen of all time and he was a lock for the HOF with or without 3000 hits. I feel sad for those who don't see that but I probably can't sway your opinions. At least the magic number will tone down some of the arguments and make him a hopeful first-balloter. If Ripken can get 98% or whatever he got, I would hope Biggio can get 75%
It would have been nice if #3000 was a 2B, oh well. Congrats to Biggio on the milestone and the exceptional career.
My first Marathon was November 27th 2005 -- 3:10:43 My next Marathon is April 16th 2007 -- Boston
He was an ALL STAR CATCHER before he was a gold glove second baseman.
Name ANYONE who did that in major league history.
Also: Biggio's BFW going into this season: 32+
Lou Brock: 2.4
Lou Brock is the worst member of the 3000+ hit club.
As of 2/28/05: 101 pounds since December 7, 2004 OFFICIAL THREE-MONTH COUNT: 112 pounds on March 9, 2005 OFFICIAL SIX-MONTH COUNT: 142 pounds on June 8, 2005 OFFICIAL ONE YEAR COUNT: 187 pounds on December 7, 2005 As of 2/27/06: 202 pounds "I've lost a heavyweight" As of 7/31/06: 224 pounds
ARRRGHH!!! I am a Tribe fan, and I'll follow them even if they suck. I won't pay money to go *see* them, but I will still follow the scores and root that they win. Did so before '94, will continue to do so.