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30.9.14 0715
The W - Football - Big Ben to the Rams? (Page 3)
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odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

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#41 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.22
    Originally posted by JustinShapiro
      Originally posted by JayJayDean
      I think the Ben and Kobe Bryant situations are quite similar. It's worked out fine for Kobe - he didn't have to switch teams or anything, got his ring and now that's a small footnote on his career. I suspect it will work out similarly for "His Big" Ben "Was Already Out of His Pants" Roethlisberger.


    I agree. I think the big outcry right now is mostly because it's the story du jour and there's blood in the water. Not that I'm saying the guy's reputation should be golden right now, far from it. The details of the investigation certainly portray Ben as a boorish jock, an irresponsible playboy, a meathead, not a very cool dude, etc. But the reporting on those details has used leading headlines and constructed a narrative that cherrypicks details and discards the contradicting ones that caused the case to not go forward because it lacked probable cause. It's no surprise that the court of public opinion is killing him like this; they've been whipped into a frenzy by irresponsible, contrived reporting about a girl who was dragged into a bathroom by bodyguards.

    (edited by JustinShapiro on 16.4.10 1724)


I thought it was not probably cause, but not enough evidence for a conviction (preponderance of evidence), coupled with an uncooperative victim (fearing a media circus or maybe even a settlement already).

It seems that, if you read all the information, you can get a clear picture of what likely happened.



Mark Coale
Odessa Steps Magazine
ISSUE FOUR - OCTOBER 2009
Psycho Penguin
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Since: 24.6.07
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#42 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.23
Kobe didn't have TWO sexual assault allegations and a motorcycle accident.



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JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.23
    Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
    Kobe didn't have TWO sexual assault allegations and a motorcycle accident.


But Kobe DID have a wife, a clear head (no drinks that night that I know of that were ever reported - feel free to correct me on that), AND a rape trial.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

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Since: 24.6.07
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#44 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.23
He was also proven not guilty and faced a lot of stigma til he became a 'good teammate' or some nonsense and they won the championship. Thinking Kobe's trangression was just forgotten about immediately is rewriting history.



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JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#45 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.23
    Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
    He was also proven not guilty


Saying THAT is "rewriting history". He wasn't "proven not guilty." The case was dismissed when the accuser declined to testify. That's not the same thing as being "proven not guilty." In fact, that's kind of the same reason Ben isn't looking at a trial.

And I didn't say it was "just forgotten about immediately." I called it a "small footnote in his career." How you got from my A to your B with that, well, I guess it falls in line with the reasoning you use when evaluating quarterbacks.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

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DrDirt
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Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#46 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.56
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
      He was also proven not guilty


    Saying THAT is "rewriting history". He wasn't "proven not guilty." The case was dismissed when the accuser declined to testify. That's not the same thing as being "proven not guilty." In fact, that's kind of the same reason Ben isn't looking at a trial.

    And I didn't say it was "just forgotten about immediately." I called it a "small footnote in his career." How you got from my A to your B with that, well, I guess it falls in line with the reasoning you use when evaluating quarterbacks.


And just to add to your point JayJay, not guilty in a court of law isn't the same as innocent. And not having charges brought means you had a really smart lawyer and the DA had trouble putting together a good casen not that you didn't commit a crime.

And finally, WTF is a 28 year old man doing helping underage woment get juiced and helping them see little Ben?



Perception is reality
supersalvadoran
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Since: 10.1.08
From: westbury, new york

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#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.90
    Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
    He was also proven not guilty


Just remember, so was OJ. Apples to oranges you might say. My point would be that just because both men weren't convicted of a crime, doesn't mean they didn't commit one either. At the very least, Big Ben has shown terrible judgement for someone in such a notable position and he probably does need to be disciplined for his reckless actions.






dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

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#48 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.41
    Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
    ::Some complete bastardisation of what I said::. I'm gonna jot that one down.

I didn't say that.

    Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
    I just don't think a QB should be judged solely on numbers. He's the leader of the team and if Pittsburgh wants to be a bunch of thugs then he's the man for the job.

See this at least makes some sense, albeit "thug" is probably a less apt term than "deviant".

There are several ways to end the sentence "The Pittsburgh Steelers should consider trading Ben to the Rams because....." that would be worthy of debate. His continued brushes with the law, his apparent disinterest in looking after his body in the manner one would expect of a professional athlete...

Like I say, I still think it would be a dumb thing for them to do, but these are at least things I can see as being the stuff of rational discussion.

His status as a terrible football player is not one of these things because he quite clearly is NOT a terrible football player. It would be like saying the Ravens should've traded Ray Lewis back in 2000 because he was a sucky linebacker.

I'm in danger of repeating myself now, if I haven't already, so that's pretty much all I have to say about that.
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    And finally, WTF is a 28 year old man doing helping underage woment get juiced and helping them see little Ben?

Indeed, although there's every chance he thought she was a little older. At best he's guilty of acting like a giant douche however and it's not the first time. If he winds up with less than a 2-3 game suspension I'd be kinda surprised.



(edited by dMr on 18.4.10 1526)
redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

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#49 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.87
Back to the original subject: I don't think the trade makes sense for the Steelers on a FOOTBALL level if Bradford is the pick. Trading a known commodity for a QB from a pass happy conference who had 2 shoulder injuries last year makes him a risk. Now, if they think Dixon is the QB of the future and they took the monster D-Lineman from Nebraska and think he can be dominant for a decade, then, maybe you make the move.
Psycho Penguin
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Since: 24.6.07
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#50 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.23
You can replace 'horrible QB' with anything you want, I'm clearly biased and my opinion means nothing, but they went 9-7 with him and just traded their best receiver. I know they have a history of winning with him, but they want to maintain their status as a class organization then they need to let him go. And Ben wasn't exactly a hyped prospect coming out of Miami (the other one) so they probably figure they could take Suh as redsoxnation said and then strike gold on a lesser known pick later (LeFevour would work)

Also,



    And just to add to your point JayJay, not guilty in a court of law isn't the same as innocent. And not having charges brought means you had a really smart lawyer and the DA had trouble putting together a good casen not that you didn't commit a crime.


Well, I am always sure to say 'proven' not guilty because there's no real way to know for sure short of video footage or a solid confession that can be verified in an undisputable manner, but that's like saying 'just because you're proven guilty doesn't mean you actually did it'. People go to jail for things they didn't do. The system in America is fucked, we all know that. But you can't accuse a guy of being guilty if there's as little evidence as Kobe or Ben had against them, especially if they were not proven guilty in court. Regardless of the circumstances.

(edited by Psycho Penguin on 18.4.10 2108)


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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#51 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.51
    Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
    And Ben wasn't exactly a hyped prospect coming out of Miami (the other one)


I like you but sometimes you just say things and they sound weird. IIRC, Accorsi was prepared to make Roethlisberger the 4th pick in the entire draft of football players if the Manning trade hadn't gone down.
hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

Since last post: 12 days
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#52 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.89
    Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
    And Ben wasn't exactly a hyped prospect coming out of Miami (the other one)

    Originally posted by SI's review of the draft
    Lots of guys liked Roethlisberger more than Manning or Rivers -- certainly Rivers. The Steelers were among them, but probably figured he wouldn't be around at this point. Well, surprise! Roethlisberger may have the biggest arm of any QB in the draft, though he's not the smoothest mover out there. The Steelers have been struggling at this position for years. They thought for a while that Tommy Maddox may have been the answer. Well, not any more. Roethlisberger looks like the guy Pittsburgh wanted and needed.




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supersalvadoran
Landjager








Since: 10.1.08
From: westbury, new york

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#53 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.90
I have to side with Hansen9j and JustinShapiro here. Remembering what I do about that draft, the NYC media made a bit of noise about Big Ben being the backup plan for the 4th pick for the Giants. They only choose Rivers to complete the deal with the Chargers for Eli. Otherwise, I understood they really didn't want Rivers mainly because they were concerned about how he threw sidearm or something to that effect. They felt that his passing motion would make him too risky for the NFL and they likely would had passed him and choose Ben had the Eli deal fell through.






Psycho Penguin
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Since: 24.6.07
From: Greenacres FL

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#54 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.23
I apologize then, I did not know that. I don't remember there being a ton of hype for him, but I guess I was wrong. I figured since he didn't get drafted super high, he wasn't all that hyped, and I don't remember his college career being superb (although he led the other Miami to their best season ever)



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Quezzy
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Since: 6.1.02
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#55 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.45
If the plan was to trade Big Ben and take Bradford or some other QB in the draft then I don't think it's a good idea. But I'd be all for having two first round draft picks this year, two next year, build up the other positions and get a QB somewhere else, even if it means one or two years with Dixon.

Doesn't McNabb only have one year left on his contract? If he wants a ring I don't think staying in Washington is going to do it. Pittsburgh is about the only perennial contender with a QB "situation". I know his best years are behind him, but Pittsburgh is usually a defensive minded team, he wouldn't have to be in his prime. It would probably be nice to have the Pittsburgh fans and front office behind him after all those years in Philly too.



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THAT IS AWESOME!
lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#56 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.45
Pittsburgh 1250 radio is reporting 4 to 6 games, less if Ben complies with some the NFL's guidelines. Steelers were preparing for 8 games. Byron Letwich is probably the starter for the foreseeable future.
hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

Since last post: 12 days
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#57 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.89
And *now* reputable sources are saying that Ben is being shopped around. Schefter reports that Ben is being shopped for a top 10 pick.

In all of my rejoinders to Psycho Penguin, I never got around to actually stating my own opinion, which is that Ben is not so untouchable that no trade is possible, nor should he be. If the Rams really did offer the #1 this yaer and next year, I would think that the Steelers would have to think long and hard about the offer, but I think they'd need to swap 2nd round picks as well (or something of that sort). But he's certainly still a very good player with many peak years ahead of him.

My profile zeitgeist is telling me that I need to stop posting in this thread.



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StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#58 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.63
So, THATS why they traded to get Leftwich.
Broncolanche
Sujuk








Since: 2.6.03
From: Littleton, CO

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#59 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.78
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    So, THATS why they traded to get Leftwich.
That should be blatantly obvious to everyone!

(edited by Broncolanche on 21.4.10 1104)
Psycho Penguin
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Since: 24.6.07
From: Greenacres FL

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#60 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.32
I hope Pittsburgh does trade Ben so you all will have to apologize to me!



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