What is up with this smart loathing everyone is getting into these days? I don't think it's about attitude or the internet as much as people would like to think.
All this nostalgia for Hogan just because we used to be little Hulkamaniacs is bullshit. I used to believe in Santa too. Let’s face it. Wrestling had a stigma that it was geared to kids and knuckle dragging rednecks. I can't really argue with that cause I grew up with Mid-Atlantic Championship Wrestling so I may be more biased to that theory.
The net didn't bring us out ot that phase. Getting out of kayfabe didn't bring us out. Marketing did. Demographics people. Yes the same people that grew up with Hulkamainia now buy the PPV's. But we are not going to spend $40 on the cheese we used to love as a kid. We want more bang for our buck.
We are now "smart" because we can look back on how "dumb" we used to be. I give the WWF and yes even WCW credit for getting me to watch something I had written off a long time ago as a kiddie thing.
Here's the rub. From what I remember and from what we now have available (did anyone see that lineup of WWF based programming spread out over this coming week on RAW?) and with the net and sites like slash we can make informed decisions to go along with the fact that we grew up in the pre-smart era. In my opinion, that is why we have the luxury to say to say the things we silly smarts say. I can watch old Flair matches and say damn I had no idea how good he was and how good he can still be. I also can see how much Hogan sucks and how much he still is an ongoing joke.
These are just two examples. We can feel free to insert any other ones we want to. I just can't buy into this garbage that if I don't want to pay to see another shitty Hogan match I am a jaded smart. To have nostalgia there has to be something to wax nostalgic for. Did I miss good Hogan match somewhere? Tell me and I'll buy it instead of this Wrestlemainia.
The point is we now are smart enough to know what we want and not accept whatever the hell we were fed. With this lack of competition we may be about to lose that no matter how smart we are. And that my friends really is a bad thing.
Those educated feet! One went to Harvard. One went to Yale. Their daddy must be proud! - good ol J.R. hating his life
I don't loathe us. We're in the know. It's cool. It's fun.
I loathe the fact that all we seem to do is whine and bitch and piss and moan. Just because we're smart doesn't have to mean that we have to be big asses. Or that we have to bitch just because one wrestler/story isn't/is being pushed/not pushed over another story.
It's just wrestling. It's really...really not that important.
Actually, wrestling is that important to some of us. Wrestling is my hobby, it's something I spend at least four hours a week watching and that's actually a large portion of the leisure time available to me. There is a trend at the moment to knock anyone who dares to criticise the WWF, but hell, we are the people that pay money to go to shows and buy their merchandise and TV output: we are entitled to complain if we don't like what we see. As long as we are being constructive rather than just bitching and moaning, then why not? For those of us that have seen more entertaining stuff with less of a talent pool, we may get a little frustrated when certain things aren't clicking.
Agreed, if it's complaining for complaining's sake then there is no call for it, as that is just as bad as blindly marking at what is put in front of you. If there is a balance between praising the good and complaining, then that's the best the best situation to have IMO, but if someone isn't enjoying what they see, then let them complain. Weinerville isn't the Smarks message board by a long shot, opinions are more balanced here.
The fact is, after all, some of these bitchers and whiners have valid points.
"Nobody enjoys a good time more than I do, but this business of yours is as legitimate as a three-legged donkey...which of course is illegitimate because as we all know donkeys have four legs."
If all you do is criticize the WWF every week, then why are you watching it? Don't give me "I'm a wrestling fan," there are other wrestling organizations out there. I can say that I'm a music fan, but I'm not gonna listen to music I don't like just so I can complain about it. It's that simple. There is an ridiculous level of WWF bashing on the internet, and it makes me wonder why you all are still watching. It's obviously the worst thing on tv, right? It's a simple as this: If you don't like it, don't watch it. Don't sit there and complain about Hogan or Nash being horrible before they even get into the ring. Don't complain about the horrible writing that somehow manages to keep you watching every week. Just stop. Constructive criticism is not a bad thing. Saying "it would have been col if this happened" is not a bad thing. Blindly criticizing everything about the WWF week in and week out is. It's not gonna change to suit you. Get over it.
First question I must ask is "can I criticize Hogan and Nash now that I've seen them suck in the ring?"
I criticize because I care. There are 10 hours of professional wrestling available to me on television in the Chicagoland area. 1 hour is held by Windy City Pro at I believe 1AM. The other 9 hours are the WWF programming. So while there are other wrestling groups out there, the WWF is the obvious bellwether of the industry, otherwise 95% of the wrestling threads wouldn't revolve around it.
You use the analogy of music you listen to. Well let me play with that idea a bit. I love the work of Artist A. I buy all the albums and listen to all the stuff put out by that artist. This artist goes through ebbs and flows, with one album coming out that I adore, the next album is passable, the next one is amazing...but never is the album totally irredeemable. So I continue to buy Artist A, because I know that artist is always capable of amazing me once again with a wonderful song or album. However when in discussion with other fans of Artist A, I will continue to talk about what I think that Artist can do better, since by default those things we don't mention disliking we can assume to have liked. That is after all a fundamental divide between people who are fans of something and those who aren't. Fans can be assumed to have enjoyed something unless they say otherwise. Non-fans can be assumed NOT to have enjoyed that thing unless they otherwise.
Artist B however, has released a couple of bombs in a row. Each album has at best one song which is passable but not close to what they used to be able to put out. Eventually I stop even talking about the group except in a passing lament or a nostalgic haze, and I certainly stop obtaining their product. I might say how much I loved their album from 10 years ago, or how much I really didn't like the most recent album when someone lent it to me.
Artist A is the WWF. Artist B is WCW. I have never been driven to abandon the WWF because even while suffering through the idea that the buildup to the Unified World Title match at WM centers around Steph and a dog, and while Nash is embarrassing himself trying to take a Thesz press against Austin, there are still moments I enjoy. The buildup to UT-Flair has been nothing but primo. Angle and Booker was gold last night. So I continue to watch for those things I do enjoy. But I am never going to stop criticizing those things I do not enjoy. When I stop criticizing, and when indeed much of the net can't even be bothered to level any detailed critiques, then you best fear for the WWF, for they have then gone the way of WCW circa 2001.
So no Jon, I'm not going to "just stop" or "get over it". What I am going to do is continue to criticize and say what I believe would be a more appealing product. Personally, that interests me much more than posts saying "Wow, wasn't it funny the way that dog crapped in the locker room! WWF Rulz!" I know the WWF won't likely listen to us, though I say it's at their peril. The net fan base has consistently been ahead of the game in terms of what they like or dislike growing or losing popularity in the near future. While WCW was at their peak of the NWO popularity, the net was giving WWF best promotion awards, seeing that they had begun to embark an a new and interesting path. WCW would go from filling 30,000 seats for a Monday Nitro to being sold for peanuts in mere years from that point. The complaints about the direction of the WWF product started to reach a crescendo again in mid-late 2000. The WWF has lost 30% of their audience IIRC since that time. We are the rats running out of subway tunnels before an earthquake. And right now the rats are streaming. And I can't imagine 6 segments of "A Champ and a dog" and the debacle that was the NWO match will get the rats calmed down.
Oh, and if you don't like people speaking mean about the WWF, don't read it.
no no no. I enjoy constructive criticism. Most of the "criticism" on the internet is just bashing for the sake of it. I will say when the WWF is crap, as everyone should. Let's look at the album thing again. Take the Ramones, for example. I love their first few albums. After say 1985, I think their albums are generally crap. It's still the Ramones, and has some sort of redeeming value, but I am not going to buy or listen to their albums. Wrestling is the same way. If I don't like it anymore, I will turn it off. I'm not saying the WWF is perfect, but it's a lot better than what most of us can easily see on a regular basis. Is that an excuse to praise it as the be-all end-all of professional wrestling? No. I know it isn't. Regardless, it is not near as bad as the average "smart" fan would have you believe. If it were, it would'nt be making money. WCW went out of business because of all around crappiness. I don't think WWF is gonna make the same mistake.
Regardless, it is not near as bad as the average "smart" fan would have you believe. If it were, it would'nt be making money. WCW went out of business because of all around crappiness. I don't think WWF is gonna make the same mistake.
Have you been watching the same shows? I think Chris hit it on the head. People are gonna buy 'Mania because it's Mania, and it's got the Hogan thing going for it. But nothing's gonna save Backlash from the impending .2 buyrate that Steph is booking her way towards. The company won't fold, but I got a feeling dark days (not the Undertaker's DARK DAZE) are ahead.
"People building their own cages rage at thoughts of liberation."- 15
Originally posted by eviljonhunt81no no no. I enjoy constructive criticism. Most of the "criticism" on the internet is just bashing for the sake of it. I will say when the WWF is crap, as everyone should.
So if there's a moment where you say the WWF is crap and I disagree with you at that point, am I going to be ridiculed for it as well? Sorry if my opinion doesn't match yours, but I don't like what I've been seeing in the past couple of months. I'd much rather be singing the praises of a four to five star calibre match, or a brilliant swerve or storyline that came to pass than vent about the nepotism that is making the boss's daughter the center of the world title match with dog poop jokes. I've followed wrestling, WWF in particular, for years, and I can't remember a time where storylines and booking in general has seemed this disorganized, unimaginative, lazy, and at times self-serving. The New Generation era, as bad as it was, had a lot less to work with thanks in large part to Billionaire Ted's shopping spree. What's the WWF's excuse this time around?
Why do I keep watching, you ask? Because I am a long-time, die-hard, biased WWF fan, and I keep hoping things turn around. Similar to how CRZ put it, the day the WWF has become so bad that I decide to do something else on Monday nights and save my cash by not ordering a WWF PPV, then we all better be worried.
"Say 'what' again. SAY 'WHAT' AGAIN! I dare you, I double dare you, motherf--ker! Say 'what' one more goddamn time!" -- Samuel L. Jackson, Pulp Fiction (1994)
what I'm saying is that you all are way to bitter about something you supposedly enjoy. I am not always happy about the product, but damn, I can find something enjoyable in it. I wouldn't be watching it otherwise. And just saying "such and such sucks" and that so and so should be pushed to the moon is not constructive criticism. Essentially, I'm asking why you can't seem to enjoy something that is a hobby? Look, I used to watch the Simpsons all the time. I think it sucks now. I don't sit around and complain about how much it sucks though. I found other things to do. If something gets to the point that you can't find any reason to watch it, then don't. And the hope of it getting better is not a reason, as nobody seems to think it will. Tastes change. Just because I used to watch Scooby Doo as a kid doesn't mean I have to like it now.
Originally posted by eviljonhunt81what I'm saying is that you all are way to bitter about something you supposedly enjoy. I am not always happy about the product, but damn, I can find something enjoyable in it. I wouldn't be watching it otherwise. And just saying "such and such sucks" and that so and so should be pushed to the moon is not constructive criticism. Essentially, I'm asking why you can't seem to enjoy something that is a hobby? Look, I used to watch the Simpsons all the time. I think it sucks now. I don't sit around and complain about how much it sucks though. I found other things to do. If something gets to the point that you can't find any reason to watch it, then don't. And the hope of it getting better is not a reason, as nobody seems to think it will. Tastes change. Just because I used to watch Scooby Doo as a kid doesn't mean I have to like it now.
Because everyone knows the WWF can be doing better. For the most part they have the same cast of characters from 1998-2000 when the WWF was smoking. In fact they have even more wrestlers to pool from, and have the most talented locker room they have ever had. Yet in the last few months they have blown it with lame angles and boring shows that have me changing the channels. Just as you have the right to sing the praises of the WWF, I and others have the right to complain about how much the product sucks right now.
Why do we complain? Because we care. Because we like wrestling and the WWF. Because we know the WWF can do better. If people stop complaining with how the product is right now it will probably mean that they no longer care about the product, and that will be trouble for the WWF.
"smart" was a term internet fans came up with to seperate themselves from the "marks". a mark is someone falling for a con - three card monty, time shares or pro wrestling. the wrestling con used to be that it was legitimate competition and no one was pulling any punches. simply knowing that wasn't the case - openly acknowledging it and discussing it - made them "smart" to the game.
point blank: 98% of the wrestling's audience is "smart".
it's less of a con to it but there is still a lot of stuff going on behind that curtain we don't know about. people have worked the dirt sheets from the day one and the internet gets all of its news from maybe four of these sources.
the thing that gets me about a lot of internet fans is the air of self congratulation. i hate, hate, hate when people act like they know 100% of the business.
"aw jeez, raw sucked because kevin nash doesn't know how to take a thesz press." was the guy saying that in the ring? anything could have gone wrong - like not hearing whomever call the move - but people jump to the conclusion that nash is past prime and is fucking everything up.
...and steph booked it all. people bitch about steph so fucking much but can they really say what angles she wrote or how much sway she holds at the booking meetings? NO.
i won't even get started about the armchair booker stuff because a lot of it can be attributed to people just saying "wouldn't it be cool if..." they're not telling having to physically tell goldberg to job, if you wheel.
there's some spleen here but don't get me wrong - i'm all for people discussing their opinions. it's just that after a while of hearing the same old bullshit, it gets to be too much.
things got heated after raw and they'll cool down again. then a month or two down the road, the same exact thing is going to happen again.
It's just you against the group mind. I like weiners.
Originally posted by Notorious F.A.B.there's some spleen here but don't get me wrong - i'm all for people discussing their opinions. it's just that after a while of hearing the same old bullshit, it gets to be too much.
Yeah, well you can't shine shit. You can put sprinkles on it. You can put whip cream on it. You can put a little candle on it. But it's still shit. And people are going to keep complaining about the product until it improves OR until the people give up and watch something else. Considering the ratings WWF has been getting for months now, more and more people are choosing the latter.
- Kinda ironic that the WWF is suffering from it’s own backlash, namely from the online fans who are getting increasingly pissed off with their short-sighted booking, empty promises and unfulfilled potential. Of course, much like WCW when the same thing happened to them, their solution to the problem has been becoming a reliance on having their shills tell off the hardcore fans because they’re just “smarks” who don’t know how to run a promotion, and that the “real” fans are still responding to the stale main events and nonsensical storylines. But no matter how much you try to sugar-coat the bile with excuses, Smackdown still did a 3.1 rating last Thursday and the interest for this PPV seems non-existant compared to even Royal Rumble, let alone Wrestlemania. And isn’t it funny how much of a non-factor Austin, the World champion mind you, has become since allying with HHH? After chasing the World title for a year, now he wins it and becomes a coffee-fetching flunky for a guy who tried to kill him less than six months before. One thing’s for sure: No matter how things shakedown in the next few months, you can bet HHH will end up on top. That’s not a critcism, by the way, just an observation.
...smackdown! this week did a 3.4. just saying.
It's just you against the group mind. I like weiners.
Since people seem to have issues with the notion of posting about disliking the WWF, I will do something about it. I will make only 2 sorts of wrestling posts for the time from the day after WM to the day after Backlash. The first type will be to say what if anything I liked about the show. The second will be to say that the show was so uninteresting I didn't watch, end of thought. I'd love to see the whole board move to that mindset for a few weeks, so that the Pollyanna of Vince loving that some people seem to desire can become their reality. And so those of us who are tired of being told "not to watch" can simply say "fine, I didn't." I'd love to see what would become of the quantity and quality of this part of the board if we all took this tack for a couple of weeks. I'm up for it, anyone else?
Way to post that without any context. The fact of the matter is that the period from right after Wrestlemania X-Seven to the RAW after Judgment Day SUCKED IMO, and after the Raw in which HHH squashed Jeff Hardy to regain the IC Title, I stopped watching the WWF for two months until I saw that Y2J/Benoit won the tag belts. The ratings went up because the product got better (and the buyrate for KOTR was better then the two PPV's before it). Then I stuck around since then, even though the last few months have been horrible. The ratings went up for the InVasion angle and The Rock return for a while, but then dropped once the InVasion angle tanked.
Raw the last two weeks has gotten an average of 4.5. 2 years ago Raw was routinly getting in the 6's and even the 7 range without doing anything special. Now they hotshot Hogan's return to the ring and it doesn't improve the ratings one bit. More power to all the fans who marked out on monday when Hogan pinned The Rock. But the nWo angle did little to boost the ratings except for that one Smackdown!, which the WWF blew that with a lousy show.
I don't want to bitch about the WWF. Hell the reason I never jumped into a message board for years was because I liked the WWF in 1999 and couldn't understand why so many internet people hated the WWF then (to be fair the last month or so in the Russo era was getting on my nerves). WCW really sucked in their last year, but I didn't complain since I never cared much for WCW. I bitch about the WWF because I want the product to be better, and I will complain about it until it gets better. If/when it does, I will be singing it's praises. But I'm not going to sing the praises of a product which I view as shit (to be fair, from the Smackdown! spoilers I've read that show looks good).
The Invasion angle and Rock's return boosted ratings for a little while. As do all the things WWF tries to do lately. You can obviously tell that WWF books everything in the short term, which I think is the main problem. Oh and notorius, I think the Thesz press is pretty hard to screw up. I've taken a thesz press before that looks better than what Nash did. Anyway, fans don't really care about what Nash does in the ring, because he can't wrestle.
And I'd also like to respond about people asking if you don't like it then why do you watch it. Well, when I'm disheartened with the WWF product I don't watch it. I didn't even watch smackdown last week. And I hardly watched any wwf television after WM X-7 until Jericho and Benoit started to feud with Austin. Anyway, the way WWF has been sleep walking their booking on tv and even on ppvs (Yes No Way Out,Royal Rumble, and Vengeance were no where near as good as they could have been) I'm kind of worried about how Wrestlemania will turn out. However I still think the product is better than WWF's top peak in 1999.
"It is a strange fate that we suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing." -Boromir
The WWF hits a nadir, and the IWC turns and bites itself, points fingers and tosses the "smark" tag around again like it's the worst thing in the world. If the smarks had this much power, there would BE no wrestling on TV, just people bashing each other with computer keyboards in the DVDR 500 series, not to be confused with the Team Challenge Series.
Well, this happened before. Almost a year ago, in fact. Post last WM, the WWF was in a deep rut, and there was no sign of improvement. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth then that "the smarts were ruining it for everyone," "If you complain so much, why do you watch it?" and so on. And the smarks turned and attacked one another like sharks fighting over chum.
Well, eventually things turned around and the smarts were placated with about two months of some of the best TV the WWF's cranked out in a long time, which -GASP!- even blended wrestling and skits in a mixture non-offensive to anyone, mark, smart, smark, or smurf. There was much rejoicing, and the positivity actually outweighed the negative. Believe it or not.
Being smart is not not a bad thing, unless you become so bitter you can't see that things bounce back and it DOES get better, sometimes quickly, sometimes gradually. I don't see anyone saying "This is a permanent downward spiral." I see people say "I know they can do better than this, maybe if enough people raise their voices, they'll go in another direction."
the reason i pasted the scott keith review is because it says, almost verbatim, the same thing the majority of the haters on this board say. swap out "stale main events" for "get stephanie off my tv" and you're set.
that review is a year old.
vile one: congratulations on taking a thesz press. here's your cookie. from where i sat, it looked like austin wanted give a thesz press and nash wanted to give a spine buster. i stand by my opinion and you're more than welcome to stand by yours.
(edited by Notorious F.A.B. on 12.3.02 2207)
It's just you against the group mind.
I like weiners.
It seems to me that people just forget this is supposed to be fun.
I once read a reviewer of RAW (whose name I'll conveniently forget) whose claimed his goal was to get people to "think" about the product.... and I rememeber thinking how much I didn't want to have to think for the two hours I'm watching wrestling. This was my two hours to just be a kid again. Yes, things aren't as fun as they have been over the course of the last three years - but we all knew a "down cycle" was coming.
The product now, in my opinion, is no where NEAR as bad as the Russo era of WCW (from "insane asylum Flair" to the end).
Granted, if things were as bad, I might not be making this point, but I digress...
To be blunt, my point it: how desperate do you have to be to want to be an elitist about wrestling?
As long as there is the potential for one or two decent matches a week on my TV, personally, I'm still going to watch. And until they make me head booker, that will be enough.
Edit: And until they fall so far down in the ratings that RAW is in danger of being taken off the air, I could not care less how many people watch...
(edited by Leroy on 12.3.02 2218)
"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees
Just one thing to note FAB, when that was written, the WWF was in the middle of a ratings slide which saw about a quarter of their audience tune out between WM and Judgment Day, and that group STILL hasn't come back. If I'm Vince I think it might be time to be afraid that if WM and the week or so after it doesn't really keep people hooked, that there may be another ratings shaving after this year's WM. How many of those does he really want to try to endure?
From a storyline standpoint, the only actual wrestlers who would make sense in a rap battle are D-Von and Rikishi, since seeing the likes of Chief Morley come out wouldn't make much sense. Jimmy Korderas, however, would RULE.