Texas Kelly
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|  #2 Posted on 15.11.07 1622.02 | Instant Rating: 3.53 | Ladies and gentlemen, the following public service message is brought to you by your friends from D-Generation X, who would like to remind each and every one of you that if you're not down with that, we've got two words for you...
Meh. The fact that it took them four years to get Bonds indicted means that in all likelihood, the case is being held together with years-old tape and chewing gum. We know that Bonds is probably guilty as hell, but good luck proving it in court.
Only real news that results from this is Bonds is surely done as an active player.
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While the switch from Cena to RVD should alleviate some complaints, the inevitability of the belt's return to Cena (note where Summerslam is this year) and the poor initial showing by the new ECW are enough to keep the indicator where it is for now. The pieces are in place, though, especially on RAW, for improvements to be made to the IWC's psyche in the near future. | |
| spf
Scrapple
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| #3 Posted on 15.11.07 1625.22 | Instant Rating: 5.16 | Originally posted by Texas Kelly
Meh. The fact that it took them four years to get Bonds indicted means that in all likelihood, the case is being held together with years-old tape and chewing gum. We know that Bonds is probably guilty as hell, but good luck proving it in court.
Only real news that results from this is Bonds is surely done as an active player.
I dunno. Remembering what everyone said when Michael Vick was indicte about how the Feds don't often bring a weak case to trial, especially in a high profile case like this makes me think things could be hairy for Barry. | Texas Kelly
Bratwurst
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| #4 Posted on 15.11.07 1721.21 | Instant Rating: 3.53 | Ladies and gentlemen, the following public service message is brought to you by your friends from D-Generation X, who would like to remind each and every one of you that if you're not down with that, we've got two words for you...
Originally posted by spf
I dunno. Remembering what everyone said when Michael Vick was indicted about how the Feds don't often bring a weak case to trial, especially in a high profile case like this makes me think things could be hairy for Barry.
This case is a little bit different for a few reasons.
- The wait time between the explosion of the investigation and the indictment was significantly shorter in the Vick case (approximately four months, versus four years in Bonds' case). I was actually pretty sure the feds had the goods on Vick when it happened so quickly.
- There were charges that the feds brought against Vick that weren't of the "he said, he said" variety that these charges against Bonds are. Perjury is usually very tough to prove. (Scooter Libby was an exception because someone had to be punished in the Plame case.)
- There was a mountain of tangible, physical evidence that the feds had to prove the case against Vick. No such evidence exists here because of the nature of the charges.
In short, the feds would probably be better off if they were charging Bonds for what he allegedly lied about - receiving steroids illegally - rather than the act of lying.
I'm going to remain skeptical until word gets out what type of case the feds have. If what Greg Anderson knew was so important to the case that they kept him imprisoned for years, and he still hasn't talked (and odds are, he hasn't, because we would have found out about it before the indictment), then in all likelihood, there isn't much here.
(edited by Texas Kelly on 15.11.07 1824)
| read a bunch of incoherent nonsense
now 52% more incoherent! | | smark/net attack Advisory System Status is: Elevated
(Holds; June 18, 2006)
While the switch from Cena to RVD should alleviate some complaints, the inevitability of the belt's return to Cena (note where Summerslam is this year) and the poor initial showing by the new ECW are enough to keep the indicator where it is for now. The pieces are in place, though, especially on RAW, for improvements to be made to the IWC's psyche in the near future. | |
| Cerebus
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| #5 Posted on 15.11.07 1905.02 | Instant Rating: 1.48 | Originally posted by Texas Kelly
Only real news that results from this is Bonds is surely done as an active player.
I don't know, maybe Fat Head can play for the San Francisco Penal System's team? Hehehe.
Forget it Josh... it's Cerebustown. | Downtown Bookie
Morcilla
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| #6 Posted on 16.11.07 0636.45 | Instant Rating: 5.89 | I must admit to some surprise when I heard that the indictment was for perjury; specifically allegedly lying under oath to a grand jury about his steroid use. Mind you, I wasn't surprised to read yet one more article about Barry Bonds and steroids; I was surprised that the charge was that he had lied to the grand jury about using steroids. After all, for years I've been reading remarks similar to the one in this thread (The W)Originally posted by Big Steve
You are unfamiliar with Bonds' testimony before the grand jury in the BALCO case and his admitting taking the cream and the clear?
There's also the following quote from this thread (The W)Originally posted by gater
Well, he's admitted to using steroids already. He testified to the grand jury during the BALCO hearings that he used Clear, which he ingested and a cream, which he rubbed into his body.
Oh wait; here's a story from ESPN (sports.espn.go.com) from December 2004Originally posted by ESPN.com news services
Bonds told a U.S. grand jury that he used undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," which he received from personal trainer Greg Anderson during the 2003 season.
So, if he's now being indicted for perjury because he told the grand jury that he did not use steroids, then that means that all the previous stories that claimed that Bonds had admitted to the grand jury that he used steroids should now be exposed as fraud.
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Liverwurst
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| #7 Posted on 16.11.07 0758.17 | Instant Rating: 4.62 | | I thought that the tone of the actual indictment (hosted.ap.org) revolved more about what's considered "knowingly"... | wmatistic
Andouille
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| #8 Posted on 16.11.07 0845.13 | Instant Rating: 3.08 | | If you read the testimony he very clearly admits to using the cream and the clear in late 2002 or early 2003. He says he didn't know they were steroids of course. And they have records showing he got the stuff before that and tests administered by Balco showing positive results for steroids as well. | bubblesthechimp
Kolbasz
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| #9 Posted on 16.11.07 1026.26 | Instant Rating: 3.70 | Originally posted by Cerebus
Originally posted by Texas Kelly
Only real news that results from this is Bonds is surely done as an active player.
I don't know, maybe Fat Head can play for the San Francisco Penal System's team? Hehehe.
Are the San Queintin Giants looking for a DH/Left fielder?
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Landjager
Since: 13.2.03
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| #10 Posted on 16.11.07 1211.47 | Instant Rating: 5.38 | Originally posted by ESPN.com news services
Bonds told a U.S. grand jury that he used undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," which he received from personal trainer Greg Anderson during the 2003 season.
So, if he's now being indicted for perjury because he told the grand jury that he did not use steroids, then that means that all the previous stories that claimed that Bonds had admitted to the grand jury that he used steroids should now be exposed as fraud.
Originally posted by the same ESPN article
Barry Bonds testified to a grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream given to him by a trainer who was indicted in a steroid-distribution ring, but said he didn't know they were steroids, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Friday.
"Greg knew what Barry's demands were. Nothing illegal," (Bonds' attorney Michael) Rains said at a news conference in Oakland. "This is Barry's best friend in the world. Barry trusted him. He trusts him today. He trusts that he never got anything illegal from Greg Anderson."
Indeed, it appears that the case hinges on "knowingly used" steroids and HGH, rather than Bonds being the innocent victim of liars from BALCO that shot him up while saying they were giving him some legal, but incredibly effective concoction like HeadOn or ActivOn.
The question is what changed to make the government bring the indictment at this time, vs. when Bonds testified in Dec, 2003. Apparently Greg Anderson didn't roll over on him, although he could still be called to testify if this goes to trial. If I were a prosecutor, I'd hate to pin my hopes on Anderson giving me the testimony I needed at trial, when he hasn't all this time he was sitting in jail.
I haven't seen any reports of what new evidence has come to light recently, but it is known that the U.S. District Attorney for the San Francisco area was replaced fairly recently (remember the flap over the firings with Alberto Gonzales?). And about a week ago, Mukasey was confirmed and sworn-in as Gonzales' replacement. So it could be that the new decision makers decided to stop waiting on Anderson to crack, and go forward with what they have.
Perjury is thought to be one of the hardest cases to make, but that hasn't stopped the government from getting other athletes linked to BALCO, Marion Jones being the most recent. I heard an interview with Victor Conte last night, where he denied early reports that he would testify on Bonds' behalf that Barry knew nothing about positive tests administered by BALCO, apparently done to see how well their 'undetectable' drugs would hold up against current testing methods.
(edited by TheOldMan on 16.11.07 1215)
(edited by TheOldMan on 16.11.07 1216)
 | wmatistic
Andouille
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| #11 Posted on 16.11.07 1656.55 | Instant Rating: 3.08 | Well if you read the article on ESPN.com by the Game of Shadows author it gives some good details as to why they waited this long. It wasn't for lack of a case apparently.
And this isn't just for the "didn't knowingly" take steroids lie. They are also getting him for lying about when he started taking them. He claimed it wasn't until late 2002 or 2003 but they have lots of evidence saying it went back to at least 2000, including the positive tests for steroids in Balco's blood work on him. |
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