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The W - Random - Baptism
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ironcladlou
Potato korv








Since: 2.1.02
From: Quincy, MA

Since last post: 2261 days
Last activity: 2113 days
#1 Posted on



So my wife took Lily (my daughter) out to see her friends today, friends that live 1 1/2 hrs away. Apparently she was very good for the car trip. Anyway, so she visits her friends. One friend in particular has a very religious family. We are not religious, we don't go to church, and we really had no intention of baptizing Lily. (Although, I am an ordained minister.) So she's talking with this girl's family, and they ask if Lily's been baptized yet. Mrs. Lou says no, and explains our stance on the issue. The girl's mother disagrees, and in an attempt to persuade Mrs. Lou otherwise, BUSTS OUT SOME F'N HOLY WATER AND ATTEMPTS TO POUR IT ON MY CHILD. I'm kinda glad I wasn't there, because I would have thrown a fucking fit. Apparently, the woman had this holy water in a sports bottle, marked "Holy Water" in gold leaf on the side. After Mrs. Lou again explains to her how we feel, and that we will baptize her on our own time, if at all (which was a polite way of saying "Put that shit away"), the woman attempts to give her the holy water so we can do it ourselves at home. She again politely refused. Managed to get the baby out of there dry, but MAN! Even my Grandma (who got the baby named after her, so she shouldn't give me any shit) has been on me about this baptism thing. All I could think of was that Simpsons episode where the kids get taken away from Marge and Homer, and the Flanders take them in, and attempt to baptize them. Except this was REAL, and it was happening to MY DAUGHTER. I can only respect other people's religious beliefs to a point, and that point is when their beliefs interfere with my life. When Lily can make her own decisions, she can be whatever the hell she wants to be. Christian, Muslim, Jew,
Atheist, Seventh Day fucking Adventist, whatever. She'll still be my daughter. I'm not about to make that decision for her.



Thank you for allowing me to vent.



ironcladlou, AKA Cygnet

"I am made from the dust of the stars, and the oceans flow in my veins"


- Rush, 'Presto'



(edited by ironcladlou on 27.1.02 2150)
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Quezzy
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Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

Since last post: 6 days
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#2 Posted on
You're an ordained minister and you talk like that?



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
Mr. Cactuar
Chorizo








Since: 14.1.02
From: Cactuar Island

Since last post: 4097 days
Last activity: 4090 days
#3 Posted on
It's pretty easy if you want to become an ordained minister. Just do some correspondence classes.




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Excalibur05
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Since: 19.1.02
From: Minnesota

Since last post: 9 days
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#4 Posted on
Isn't there a cat in England that's an ordained minister?



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Keith Myath
Bauerwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Palma

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#5 Posted on
You can actually do it over the internet with the Universal Church of Life, and it's free!

Situations like what you described Lou have been my biggest complaint about the church (and mine in particular) for a while now. Putting the sacredness of ceremony (communion, baptism, wedding) ahead of sacredness of ideals (love, honesty, forgiveness) has really irked me. When that kind of mindset is used, situations like that happen.





"I'll @#%! 'til you love me, you @#!!$%!" --Mike Tyson to a reporter who said he should be put in a straightjacket, Jan. 22, 2002
210
Blutwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: St Paul, MN

Since last post: 4321 days
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00

Well, it was extreme, but I do think you should get your daughter baptized. Then again, it doesnt matter what I think you should do with your daughter. I'm just sayin'.



Minnesota is so hot
Mr. Cactuar
Chorizo








Since: 14.1.02
From: Cactuar Island

Since last post: 4097 days
Last activity: 4090 days
#7 Posted on
Oh yeah, Rev. Lou, you have a very nice, healthy looking daughter.



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ironcladlou
Potato korv








Since: 2.1.02
From: Quincy, MA

Since last post: 2261 days
Last activity: 2113 days
#8 Posted on


It makes no sense to me. If there is a heaven, when you get there, why would St. Peter turn you away if you didn't have some water splashed on your head when you were a baby?

Thanks, Cactuar. And yes, I'm a minister in the Universal Life Church, but my title isn't Reverend. I'm a Spiritual Warrior, and the name of my congregation is the Corporate Ministry.

Seriously.



spiritual warrior ironcladlou

"I am made from the dust of the stars, and the oceans flow in my veins"


- Rush, 'Presto'



(edited by ironcladlou on 28.1.02 2245)
210
Blutwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: St Paul, MN

Since last post: 4321 days
Last activity: 4321 days
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00

Iron Clad, for what its worth, I think a Baptism is more sybolic than anything else. Like cutting the wedding cake together with your wife, or watching baseball with your old man.



Minnesota is so hot
ironcladlou
Potato korv








Since: 2.1.02
From: Quincy, MA

Since last post: 2261 days
Last activity: 2113 days
#10 Posted on


This is true, but the religious connotations kinda skeeve me. I was baptized Catholic, and my mom made me go to Sunday school and whatnot. I feel it was forced on me. I don't want to have to do that to Lily. If she decides, when she's older, that she wants to be baptized in whatever religion, that's fine with me. If I baptize her, I'm essentially locking her into Christianity, which is not something I personally believe in. Besides, real parenthood is quite enough for me, I don't need no symbolism.

And my dad hates baseball. And I'm not married yet (although the wedding is really a formality at this point. I intend to marry my fiancee as soon as possible. The only reason I haven't yet is a financial concern. That's why I call her my wife.)



ironcladlou, AKA Cygnet

"I am made from the dust of the stars, and the oceans flow in my veins"


- Rush, 'Presto'

spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 3 days
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#11 Posted on
I just want to say big props to you Lou for your call. If when she's old enough to make her own call she wants to join a church and become a member of it, then I say support that 1000%. But if when she's of age she decides it's all about the Buddha or taking a Sartreian view of the universe of whatever, that should be her call without ingrained religious precepts pounded into her in her developmental years.



There, I feel better now.
DJ FrostyFreeze
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Hawthorne, CA

Since last post: 42 days
Last activity: 11 hours
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95
Lemme just throw this question out there for those of you who are religous and agreed with Lou's opinion of baptising young children...

All of the religons I know of (including mine) are based largely on (or have a great deal to do with) where you're going/trying to end up after you die.

That being said, dont you want your kids to end up in the same place you're going?



Miss Cleo told me you would touch my sig today
Keith Myath
Bauerwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Palma

Since last post: 4610 days
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#13 Posted on
That really all depends on your doctrernal/dogmatic beliefs. Some believe that all children are going to that place because they have no accountability at that young of an age. Others believe that you must be baptized. Honestly, this kinda thing is debated within churches.





"I'll @#%! 'til you love me, you @#!!$%!" --Mike Tyson to a reporter who said he should be put in a straightjacket, Jan. 22, 2002
eviljonhunt81
Pepperoni








Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

Since last post: 2984 days
Last activity: 2981 days
#14 Posted on
I'm also ordained. I should start baptizing random people on the street. Baptizing . . . IN BLOOD!!!!


Man. that is so not red.



Mr. Cactuar
Chorizo








Since: 14.1.02
From: Cactuar Island

Since last post: 4097 days
Last activity: 4090 days
#15 Posted on
That's not entirely...uh...sanitary.



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Gabe: Hey, uh...when did you get this gay porn game?
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PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2827 days
Last activity: 2669 days
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#16 Posted on
Hey, Lou, it could be worse. You might have had a son, and your wife's friend's might have been adamantly Jewish...



"I'm crazy, but I'm not crazy like that. I might want to have sex in a crazy place, but I'm not gonna rape somebody."
"Iron" Mike Tyson
ironcladlou
Potato korv








Since: 2.1.02
From: Quincy, MA

Since last post: 2261 days
Last activity: 2113 days
#17 Posted on


Actually, we discussed that at length. She not Jewsih, but if we had a boy, she was adamant about getting him circumcised. I myself am not, so I thought it would be kinda a bad thing to do. After much debate, I managed to convince her that I was right, but the point ended up being moot anyway.



ironcladlou, AKA Cygnet

"I am made from the dust of the stars, and the oceans flow in my veins"


- Rush, 'Presto'

Karlos the Jackal
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: The City of Subdued Excitement

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 3 hours
#18 Posted on
Lou, I think you should have her baptized, and then, during the baptismal, Clemenza and Tessio can go around the city and whack all of your enemies.

I'm just sayin'.

--K
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 3030 days
Last activity: 244 days
#19 Posted on
Okay, NOW my brain hurts.

First off, the disclaimer: I am an atheist, but I respect the good things that religion can do for others. People can believe whatever they want to believe, as long as they don't try to cram those beliefs down the throats of everyone else. To paraphrase a famous quote, someone else's right to evangelize and dictate morals ends where my nose begins.

Organized religion != religion. The religion contains the principles to live by, the behavior codes to follow, the tales of days of yore to learn from and the faith that there are powers greater than you in the universe that have the answers you're looking for. All religions start at the same basic building blocks -- looking for answers to questions like "How did we get here? How did the world get here? What should we be doing? What shouldn't we be doing? Why did this event happen? Where do we go next?" -- and answer those questions in their own ways.

Organized religions (particularly many denominations of Christianity) are man's abuse of that quest for answers. These are highly-organized groups who (a) claim that they (and only they) have the true answers and worship the "real" divinity, (b) promote conformity through rote behavior, repetition and indoctrination of the young, and (c) drain away as much time, money and independent thought from their followers as possible. Don't think - BELIEVE. Don't question - HAVE FAITH. Don't wonder why - CONFORM. And while you're at it, look down upon anyone out there who hasn't signed up for the program...

A lot of religious people will squirm at the previous paragraph, and they probably should, because the average religious person doesn't think or act like that. They follow the core beliefs of their religion (which are generally boiled down to "Be nice to and help those around you, treat others well, do good things, and your good works will revisit you over time (and in the next life)"), they apply those principles to their everyday lives, they join others in their congregation in a highly-supportive environment where those in need find many who'll help, and they frown at the excesses of the ultra-zealous and the clowns on TV. And there's NOTHING AT ALL WRONG ABOUT THAT. If someone believes that "[insert religion here] is how I should live my life" and benefits from it, so much the better. But when they take a step further and believe that "[religion X] is how EVERYONE shall live their lives", that's where the line gets drawn.

The mentality of someone who carries around holy water in a sports bottle and who'd attempt to forcibly baptize someone else's child... that's nearly incomprehensible, except that I've run into that type of person before. This is a person who detached the "Reason" section of her brain long ago and ran it down the garbage disposal, and someone who I wouldn't trust to run a letter down to the mailbox for me, because _she sees nothing wrong with what she tried to do_. In her mind, she was doing the right thing by "saving" your child, because she cannot even comprehend the possibility that her beliefs and what she hears in her church might not be The One True Way[tm]. You can't debate or argue with someone who simply refuses to consider that any alternatives or criticisms could possibly have any merit.

If a drop of holy water had splashed on your daughter - intentionally or otherwise - I don't buy for a SECOND that she'd be "locked into Christianity", or that anyone is ever locked into certain religious beliefs for life. Your daughter isn't old enough yet to walk, talk or use a toilet; do you REALLY believe that anything that happens to her right now will shape her intellectual and spiritual development throughout her life?

We are human beings. We are fallible. We always reserve the right to doubt (ourselves AND what others present to us), to change our minds, and to travel down a different road in search of the answers we seek. Believing that splashing an infant's head with water will make her a lifelong Christian is like believing that taking an infant to Fenway Park will make her a lifelong Red Sox fan. She has many years to make up her own mind, and believe me, she will.




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Same here. The Zelda series was my favorite non-mario Nintendo one, and after seeing previews for the Zelda game I decided to go with Playstation 2 instead.
- TheBucsFan, Zelda for GameCube (2002)
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