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20.12.14 0701
The W - Current Events & Politics - Backpedaling (Page 2)
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ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 102 days
Last activity: 9 hours
#21 Posted on
    Originally posted by spf2119
    Pool, had the government made those the primary reasons for the war, it would be a different debate. And really, to call this "Stretching the WMD facts" seems a far more charitable definition than anyone likely would have ever given our previous president for anything he ever said. The fact remains that if it turns out that not only are there no WMD's but that the government KNEW that basically to be the case that we lied not only to the world but to our own people. We as a populace, and as people were so fond of quoting during and leading up to the proceedings the majority of people supported this action, were lied to and sent our troops into harm's way under wholly false pretenses. Would the nation have supported this war if they had been told "Iraq has tenuous but possible ties to Al-Qaeda and is run by a very very very mean man" would we have been so willing to go to war. My issue is not whether war with Iraq was a good thing. My issue is whether we agreed as a public to go to war on misleading information.


Here's the thing, while the administration did attempt to sell us on war with the whole WMD thing, I don't think that's what really sold the war to the public at large. I think the real thing that made this war thing so easy to push through was these 3 things:

1) The belief that Saddam is an evil man.
2) The belief that we would take few casualties.
3) The belief that the war would be over really quick.

Now, these are my own thoughts, I know of no expert who has stated these things, but it is what I really believe. I think these were the true selling points of the war. In other words, the Bush adminstation could have pretty much come up with any excuse, and the public would have backed a war decision against Iraq. I think if the American public really thought that we would take heavy casualties, or that the war would last for years, or even if Saddam was some unknown quantity that was outside the public eye, there is no way this would have been popular, at least not 2/3's popular, regardless of how convincing the WMD arguments were.

The war did not fail on any of the three above counts. As such, I don't think the public will care if we don't find the weapons, though they should. Now had we failed on length count, or (probably especially) the casuality count, you better believe that the public would be screaming for blood about the lack of WMD discoveries. But since it turned out to be so "easy", I don't think the public will really care one way or the other about this.

So while I agree with your points, and the fact that we haven't found WMD yet should be cause for concern, I just don't think it will be for the overall public as a whole.


(edited by ges7184 on 31.5.03 1415)
godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3963 days
Last activity: 3909 days
#22 Posted on
he had terrorist training camps in his country

Look, I'm hardly Saddam's biggest fan or anything, but it is worth pointing out that he wasn't mandating their survival or officially supporting them - and moreover that the camps were in Kurdish territory, which Saddam hadn't controlled for the past decade. Al-Qaeda cells have been found in Indonesia and Buffalo, but we're not going to go invade there, because we rightly know that there was no state sanctioning of those cells - and we also know fairly conclusively that Saddam and Al-Qaeda had nothing to do with one another beyond a few tentative feelers put out several years ago that went nowhere, presumably because each is completely antithetical to the belief system of the other and "enemy of my enemy is my friend" doesn't work well enough all the time.

This sort of glaring one-eighth-truth is what the war was founded upon, and it's why so much of the world is so pissed off - and it's why the United States has alienated a lot of its major allies. You can't lie your ass off and then expect everybody else to assume your intentions are good. The two really don't have a lot in common with one another.

If the war was a good and productive thing, it will be judged on that.

True enough, which is why the declarations of victory from the right are so galling. It's not over. The 75th has now been fighting in Iraq constantly for over seventy-five days straight (bear in mind that during World War II, most infantry divisions were rotated out for rest after thirty days whenever possible), the American forces are averaging a death a day, and the occupational government installed by the United States is so inept it's like something out of MAD Magazine except for real. If this keeps up - and given the plans to reduce troop presence, it most likely will - a lot of people both at home and abroad are going to get very antagonistic over the continued occupation, for varying reasons.
calvinh0560
Boudin rouge








Since: 3.1.02
From: People's Republic of Massachusetts

Since last post: 618 days
Last activity: 1 day
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by godking
    They complain about museum artifacts getting stolen, and weren't almost all or most of the stolen artifacts recovered?

    Uh, no. They weren't. Hence the being upset.



This is another part of the war the was blow WAY out of proportion. There were not 100,000 of artifacts missing. As of May 10 Sorry this is the most up-to-date story I could find (stltoday.com) about 700 of a total of 5000 (at most) artifacts stolen have been returned.
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

Since last post: 3806 days
Last activity: 3276 days
AIM:  
#24 Posted on

    Originally posted by calvinh0560
    Ok what about the Kosovo war. We were told that 100,000 people were killed in mass graves to justify that war. We were mislead with that number when the true total seems to be around 4,000. I don't recall alot of people put up a huge fuss as they seem to be doing in Iraq. I am sure will will find more the 4,000 people killed by the person who you think only crime is to have a few hundred gallons of pesticide.


...uh, where, exactly, did I say that was his only crime? Oh, wait, that's right, I didn't.

And your reasoning, here, seems to be a little off. We were lied to about Kosovo, so we shouldn't care about being lied to about Iraq?

Is there an oxygen shortage or something?



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
calvinh0560
Boudin rouge








Since: 3.1.02
From: People's Republic of Massachusetts

Since last post: 618 days
Last activity: 1 day
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

...uh, where, exactly, did I say that we should not care about being lied too? Oh, wait, that's right, I didn't

I am just bring up that the same people on the left that are complaining about being lied to here (and I don't think we are being lied to) did not seem to mind that their lord and savior Bill Clinton lied to them about Kosovo.
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 8 hours
AIM:  
#26 Posted on
If we had committed the amount of troops to Kosovo that we committed to Iraq, if we had run the risks of upsetting the most volatile region on earth with our actions, and if while in Kosovo we had begun to give off hints that we might start moving all over SE Europe toppling any nation who disagrees with us you can be assured I would have been as disgusted with Clinton and his crew. As it was I was against Kosovo as well simply because, much like atrocities in Iraq, it's none of our country's damn business to be the world's parental unit.



and maybe I should open up my sensitive side/but really, the sensitive side sucks./I've been there./You can only imagine the kinds of sweaters they make you wear.

NWA:TNA - I'm sure something happened, but I was at pub quiz. Oh well.
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 10 days
Last activity: 1 day
#27 Posted on

    Originally posted by DMC
    If the war was a good and productive thing, it will be judged on that. Say what you want about them having egg on their faces, but to me its akin to someone telling you that you should really drink a glass of wine everyday because it builds strong bones. The person may be correct in general that drinking a glass of wine everyday is beneficial for you, but they got one of the details incorrect. The wine, however, is still helping you in other ways.

    So drink up.

    DMC



No, thats not really the same thing at all. We were told that Iraq posed a clear and present danger to us because of WOMD (none found), and they had links to al Qaeda (described at best as tenuous).

Basically the argument was if we dont hit them first and hit them hard then they'll damn sure hit us and with a pretty large and shitty stick at that.

A more accurate adaption of your analogy would be a national campaign being run saying that if we dont all have a glass of wine today we're gonna die, and die soon.

Everyone thus goes out and spends a shitload of money on wine only to find out further down the line that it can only help to prevent a small number of illnesses, and only as part of a balanced diet. On top of that you find out that the poeple who ran the original campaign had a vested interest in seeing wine sales go up.

I'd say that given those circumstances a fair few people would be pissed off, and rightly so.



messenoir
Summer sausage








Since: 20.2.02
From: Columbia, MO

Since last post: 603 days
Last activity: 470 days
AIM:  
#28 Posted on
It seems like we were told there weren't any WMDs in Iraq by someone we used info from in other cases. Further hiding of information. And yet somehow we still trust we are being told the truth in other cases concerning Iraq.

Also, the US also made it's claim for war by alleging Iraq and Al Qaeda were linked when there was and is no evidence to support this, except through weak and silly attempts. Yet something like 45% of Americans (can't find the exact USA Today poll) still believe there's a link. Somehow this doesn't lead to me wanting to care about majority support or not here in the US.

Plus, I don't think <"http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/casualty-list.htm">160 troops dying or missing with more sure to come should ever be considered a success. If Afghanistan is any indication, this conflict won't be over for a long time, and troops are sure to die for a long time (I still find it interesting how the number of dead Iraqis is not discussed.) This "war" is not over and Iraqis are not close to liberated.

In fact, self rule has been put off (article based on <"http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00817FE3E5A0C748DDDAC0894DB404482">here(only brief available).). Also, Rumsfeld has said the US would not allow a theocracy in Iraq. This even though the majority of Iraqis are Shiite Muslims, and might support such a government.

So freedom in choosing one's government doesn't seem to be coming to Iraq. There isn't freedom and there isn't safety, what is there? Are we using the same "ooh, but they can fly kites" line we used with Afghanistan? Cause kite flying sure is nice when you have no money, food, water or ability to choose your own government.

As of May 10 Sorry this is the most up-to-date story I could find (stltoday.com) about 700 of a total of 5000 (at most) artifacts stolen have been returned.


Oooh, "only" 5,000 pieces missing. Why would anyone think to complain about that? I mean, 5,000 pieces is just chump change.

(edited by messenoir on 1.6.03 1348)
rockstar
Salami








Since: 2.1.02
From: East TN

Since last post: 3626 days
Last activity: 3504 days
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.22
The articles at cnn.com and latimes.com are somewhat, well, dated, and I'd hope that the Bush Administration was using fresher intelligence when they went to war, so those articles seem, well, irrelevant. Quite frankly, I also hope they based their decisions on information that's a little more classified than what a CNN or LA Times reporter would have access to.

As far as talking about Iraqi casualties, I would imagine that no reliable numbers have come down for anyone to reference in a discussion. Otherwise, someone would have brought it up by now.

Self-rule in Iraq: we're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't. If we let them rule themselves and anarchy reigns (which it probably would for a short time), it's our fault. If we continue to run their show for them, we're imperialistic.

On the topic of the artifacts, I really don't care. It did present an opportunity to change history and claim that the cradle of civilization wasn't Mesopotamia, but rather England. Or maybe Philadelphia.



"Life is tough. Life is tougher if you're stupid."
--John Wayne

"If I can't dazzle you with brilliance, then I'll befuddle you with bullshit."
--"Dirty" Dutch Mantel

Or it's like you lost your keys in the garage, but you look for them in the living room because you know there's another set of keys in there that you need to find anyway.
calvinh0560
Boudin rouge








Since: 3.1.02
From: People's Republic of Massachusetts

Since last post: 618 days
Last activity: 1 day
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by messenoir
    Oooh, "only" 5,000 pieces missing. Why would anyone think to complain about that? I mean, 5,000 pieces is just chump change.

    (edited by messenoir on 1.6.03 1348)



Well while it is not chump change it is not the 100,000 pieces that the media was reporting when everyone was put on a big stink about this. It also seem like it was a inside job and not done by looters.
Lexus
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#31 Posted on
The coyote goes... I'm sorry, but I still can't get past the fact that Vanity Fair supposedly scooped everybody.

Oh, and as for the civilized or not question, every country on earth is civilized, due to the fact some civilization came forward and claimed the land.



I own a Gamecube, and I own Eternal Darkness.
cokeman
Chorizo








Since: 12.4.03
From: nj (back from iraq)

Since last post: 3344 days
Last activity: 3134 days
#32 Posted on

    Originally posted by -proletarian-
    Upon entering Baghdad, the U.S. military immediately moved to secure the Oil Ministry, while leaving schools and hospitals at the mercy of looters. The ONLY thing they protected was the Oil Ministry. Not the schools. Not the hospitals. Insofar as their motive for this war was, that about says it all if you ask me.


Who was to know that the iraqi people were going to loot there own shit.




87 days and counting till i leave for active army!
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

Since last post: 3806 days
Last activity: 3276 days
AIM:  
#33 Posted on

    Originally posted by cokeman
    Who was to know that the iraqi people were going to loot there own shit.


...the Iraqis weren't looting their own homes.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
cokeman
Chorizo








Since: 12.4.03
From: nj (back from iraq)

Since last post: 3344 days
Last activity: 3134 days
#34 Posted on
Who said anything about homes??? Just the government buildings.




87 days and counting till i leave for active army!
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

Since last post: 3806 days
Last activity: 3276 days
AIM:  
#35 Posted on

    Originally posted by cokeman
    Who said anything about homes??? Just the government buildings.


Then it isn't "their" shit. Unless you own the museum, if you steal something from one you're not stealing from yourself... otherwise, it wouldn't be theft. It'd be closer to redecorating.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 10 days
Last activity: 1 day
#36 Posted on

    Originally posted by cokeman

      Originally posted by -proletarian-
      Upon entering Baghdad, the U.S. military immediately moved to secure the Oil Ministry, while leaving schools and hospitals at the mercy of looters. The ONLY thing they protected was the Oil Ministry. Not the schools. Not the hospitals. Insofar as their motive for this war was, that about says it all if you ask me.


    Who was to know that the iraqi people were going to loot there own shit.



Yeah, who'd have thunk that if you remove the ruling body and police force of a country that crime might ensue. I'm sure if the police in a nice civilised country like America or the UK were to disband en masse that we could rely on our well behaved citizens to ensure law and oredr was maintained by tutting disapprovingly at any rogue scally-wags who dared do wrong.

Look, as far as I'm concerned the whole WOMD thing boils down to this.

If, and it is still only an if, we dont find any then either:

a) The US and/or UK governments lied not only to the international community but also to their own people to try and foster support for a war

or

b) Our intelligence, upon which decisions of the highest magnitude were taken, was inaccurate.

As far as I'm concerned either one of those would be pretty concerning.



godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3963 days
Last activity: 3909 days
#37 Posted on
Our intelligence, upon which decisions of the highest magnitude were taken, was inaccurate.

The problem is that this one really isn't possible, as agency after agency is making it perfectly clear that they knew perfectly well that Iraq's chances of having dangerous WMD supplies were so low as to be not worth mentioning, and that the Bush administration purposefully "misinterpreted" and misrepresented the facts to make their case.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2888 days
Last activity: 2730 days
AIM:  
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by godking
    Our intelligence, upon which decisions of the highest magnitude were taken, was inaccurate.

    The problem is that this one really isn't possible, as agency after agency is making it perfectly clear that they knew perfectly well that Iraq's chances of having dangerous WMD supplies were so low as to be not worth mentioning, and that the Bush administration purposefully "misinterpreted" and misrepresented the facts to make their case.



George Tenet disagrees.



Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1327 days
Last activity: 1124 days
#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Oh by the way:
All Along, Most Iraqi Relics Were 'Safe and Sound'.

By the way, that's page A12 of today's Washington Post...



"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms. This is not to say that firearms should not be very carefully used and that definite safety rules of precaution should not be taught and enforced. But the right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against a tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible."
- Sen. Hubert H. Humphrey, 1960
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