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The W - Baseball - Awards (Page 2)
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skorpio17
Morcilla








Since: 11.7.02
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#21 Posted on
I'd rather wait until the end of the season, but many of these choices are just wrong.

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    Bonds has Pujols beat in every offensive category,



Not really, they are tied with 41 HRs. Pujols has a better average, 38 more RBIs, and 24 more Runs.

    Originally posted by PalpatineW


    How about Lou Piniella for manager of the year? The Devil Rays could beat the pants off the Tigers, at least. And they have played a hell of a lot better.


Lou Pinella and Tony Pena are both sympathy choices. I'd rather give the award to a manager whose team doesn't suck. The Royals will be lucky to finish .500, with their choking. A manager on a winning team would be a good choice.

For AL ROY look at Matsui who has a real 100 RBI; Baldelli and Gerut are both in the 70's.

Willis is the overhyped lefty choice if your blinded by the hype. If you look at numbers, Webb is much better.



pieman
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.21


    Originally posted by Big Bad
    AL Rookie of the Year: I'd have to go with Rocco Baldelli, just because Matsui has faded and there isn't anyone else who's really made an impression as a rookie.


Angel Berroa is head and shoulders better than Matsui, Baldelli and Gerut. He plays a much tougher position.

Berroa .290/.339/.459 (avg, OBP, Slugg) for OPS of .798
Gerut .284/.340/.513 for OPS of .853
Matsui .286/.349/.441 for OPS of .790
Baldelli .295/.329/.421 for OPS of .750


Matsui gets points for RBIs which are SOLELY a function of teammates. Gerut and Berroa are outslugging him for Pete's sake! A corner outfielder is supposed to bring the slugging, especially if you run like a snail like Matsui does. I can see the argument for Gerut, but Berroa plays a much more demanding position than Gerut. I would vote for them in this order:

Berroa
Gerut
Baldelli
Matsui





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jfkfc
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.87
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    AL Rookie of the Year: I'd have to go with Rocco Baldelli, just because Matsui has faded and there isn't anyone else who's really made an impression as a rookie.
Um, when did Godzilla fade? He is batting .280 in September. Granted, he only 7 rbi and 1 homer for the month, but I think "faded" is quite strong and inaccurate.

Frankly, I don't think he should be considered for the award, just like Nomo shouldn't have been, and Sasaki, and Suzuki. However, if the deal is the best first-year guy, you have to give it to Matsui. Aside from two slumps, this guy is a machine, and he has got a great all around game...



The memories of my family outings are still a source of strength to me. I remember we'd all pile into the car - I forget what kind it was - and drive and drive. I'm not sure where we'd go, but I think there were some trees there. The smell of something was strong in the air as we played whatever sport we played. I remember a bigger, older guy we called "Dad." We'd eat some stuff, or not, and then I think we went home. I guess some things never leave you.

If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."
BigVitoMark
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#24 Posted on
    Originally posted by scabby
      Originally posted by BigVitoMark
      ERA really is the telling statistic. You win or lose games on the number of runs you give up. Strikeouts are nice and I prefer my pitchers not give up hits or walks, but as long as they don't give up runs I'm happy because it means my team wins.


    Isn't the "wins" statistic a better indicator of whether you win or lose games than ERA?

    Just a thought....


No, not really. A pitcher with a lower ERA is doing more himself to help his team win. Tim Hudson's ERA is 2.66 according to an earlier post, yet because the A's couldn't hit until July he got seven no-decisions in the first half of the season alone. Wins are a function of not only pitching performance but also the defense playing behind the pitcher and the offense scoring runs for him. ERA is not impacted by run support, and because it only counts EARNED runs it is corrected to allow for poor fielding. It is purely representative of pitching performance, which is why I say it is the most telling stat.

***

As far as the AL ROY debate, Matsui is benefitting a ton by the lineup he is in. If his home run numbers were better his 100 RBIs might mean a bit more, but let's be honest...he's hitting behind Soriano, Jeter, Bernie, and Giambi and ahead of Posada who, as a unit of 5, are producing at a pace of 97 RBI per man over a full season. If Matsui didn't have 100 RBI, he'd be dragging the team down. Yes, he is having a good season, but in that lineup it'd be tough not to. I stand by my Gerut vote.
PalpatineW
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Pujols has a better average, yes, but Bonds still has the edge in almost every meaninful offensive category. I'm going to ignore runs and RBI, because they depend on his teammates.

Bonds

AVG: .341
OBP: .533
SLG: .751
OPS: 1.284

Pujols:
AVG: .363
OBP: .440
SLG: .685
OPS: 1.125

Pujols has a better average, but Bonds gets on base at a far higher clip, and has a significantly higher slugging percentage. Pujols is clearly a great hitter, but Bonds is still better. Furthermore, Pujols advantage in runs scored and RBI suggest that those around him are hitting better, thereby making him less valuable to the Cards, relatively speaking, than Bonds is to SF.

(edited by PalpatineW on 16.9.03 0325)


Johnny Cash
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.08
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    Pujols has a better average, yes, but Bonds still has the edge in almost every meaninful offensive category. I'm going to ignore runs and RBI, because they depend on his teammates.


Not that I think it should be anyone other than Bonds, but I have to mention that RBIs and Runs are THE two statistics that matter in hitting. You get hits when your teammates are onbase and you are onbase, preferably in scoring position from your double when they are hitting. This is not an offensive stats catagory, it is the Most Valuable player. Bonds gets on. He hits homers that drive in runs, he hits doubles, he moves runners along, the old sumbitch steals bases, he walks like a madman. I used to just hate bonds, but I gotta admit, I am coming around. If he can hang in there until he's 42-43 like Old Henry, he's gonna pass Hammerin' hank like a freight train. Deservedly. Possibly the greatest of all time. And at 39 he's still kicking ass. He deserves to win




We'll be back as soon as order is restored.....
skorpio17
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.81
Regarding RBIs and Runs being SOLELY a function of teammates. That is an exageration. You can say that about any stat in baseball including ERA if you wanted to drill deep enough. Rickey Henderson is the all-time best at Runs scored and he earned each and every one of those himself. I'd rather have a guy who scores a lot of runs, than a guy who just gets on base a lot (OBP).

Matsui earned those RBIs himself. He may have more opportunities with the Yankees, but he is hitting .335 with runners in scoring postion. While Baldelli has shown no improvement in the clutch.

I understand that Berroa has a more demanding position and Gerut has more power and even K-Rod is pitching lights out with opponents hitting .170 against him. But there is no justification for Baldelli ahead of Matsui. Baldelli has even less power, too many strikeouts, and they play the same position.

    Originally posted by jfkfc

    Frankly, I don't think he should be considered for the award, just like Nomo shouldn't have been, and Sasaki, and Suzuki. However, if the deal is the best first-year guy, you have to give it to Matsui. Aside from two slumps, this guy is a machine, and he has got a great all around game...


This line of thinking is really pissing me off. It sounds like folks are saying guys from Japan should be ineligible for ROY awards. This is bullshit.

First off he is eligible because the rules clearly say he is. There should be no controversy.

I don't even see what basis you could change the rules to make Japanese players ineligible. If it is an age thing...Posednik is old enough to be a cast member on Friends. Dennis Quaid was pretty old and he was obviously a rookie because that's even the title of his movie.

If it is an experience thing, I also don't see it. Playing in Japan is the same level of Triple A. Matsui is seeing pitches here in the majors that he neve faced in Japan. It is a different level. You have guys from Cuba with fake IDs and they are all eligible (Contreras).

If you wanted to go back in history and retroactively apply these stricter eligibility rules, you'd have to take back the ROY awards from Jackie Robinson, Fernando Valenzuela, and every other "rookie" on that list.

JayJayDean
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
I dont' think it's very hard to put some ERA responsibility on other players besides the pitcher. If the defensive guys behind him have lousy range and don't get to many balls, a guy's ERA will be a lot higher than a guy who have guys with good range behind him, even if THOSE guys have hands of stone, because they will get charged with more errors and the pitcher will give up more unearned runs.



Washington Huskies, 1-1. USC didn't look THAT great after the first quarter, so I'm more optimistic that they'll be the 2003 Pac-10 champs.
pieman
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.21


    Originally posted by skorpio17
    Regarding RBIs and Runs being SOLELY a function of teammates. That is an exageration. You can say that about any stat in baseball including ERA if you wanted to drill deep enough. Rickey Henderson is the all-time best at Runs scored and he earned each and every one of those himself. I'd rather have a guy who scores a lot of runs, than a guy who just gets on base a lot (OBP).


Okay, I'll take this one since I was the one that originally posted SOLELY. You're right. That is an exageration. The BIGGEST PIECE of RBI is dependent on teammates being on base in front of you. When you hit a homerun, you are solely responsible for that RBI, when you hit a grand slam, you are still solely responsible for ONE RBI. Your three teammates had something to do with the other three RBI.

To say Rickey earned each and every run also is an exageration, Mr. Skorpio. What did he do for every run. Hit a single and steal three bases? Nobody ever knocked him in? That's your argument for RBI, isn't it? Rickey had a high on-base percentage. That's the biggest reason for his high runs scored totals. He was on base to come around to score either by moving up on a steal or being knocked in by teammates.




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PalpatineW
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Pieman already fielded the Henderson question, so I will simply state: yeah. And see if you can find me a guy who scores a lot of runs with a bad OBP.

There's a wealth of statistical study devoted to the impact of defense on a pitcher's ERA. The most well-known is Voros McCracken's "DIPS," or defense independent pitching stats. From what I've read, which is admittedly not that much, it's not a universally accepted idea. I'll paste some links for the curious.

McCracken.

A partial refutation.

As far as ROTY, yeah, Matsui likely deserves it under the current rules. The current rules stink, that's all.

And as far as earning RBIs, well... irrelevant. Nomar went through a hideous RBI-less streak this year where he was batting close to .400. It had nothing to do with him and everything to do with a lack of output from the two men batting in front of him.



Johnny Cash
1932-2003
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.05

    Originally posted by pieman
    Okay, I'll take this one since I was the one that originally posted SOLELY. You're right. That is an exageration. The BIGGEST PIECE of RBI is dependent on teammates being on base in front of you. When you hit a homerun, you are solely responsible for that RBI, when you hit a grand slam, you are still solely responsible for ONE RBI. Your three teammates had something to do with the other three RBI.


Then there's players like Mark Grace, who with less that two outs and a man on second, was king at DRAWING A WALK.

RBIs are also a function of being able to execute in the clutch. Hitting a sac fly with a man on third, that type of thing...NOT hitting a double play grounder with men on first and third...

You can also have big HR hitters, who only hit solo jobs and can't do it with men on base. Look at Rick Wilkins' 30 HR season....



"In the sky. Lord, in the sky..."
skorpio17
Morcilla








Since: 11.7.02
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.42
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    And see if you can find me a guy who scores a lot of runs with a bad OBP.




Soriano - Last year he scored 128 Runs with a pretty bad OBP of .332. All those runs scored made his OBP seem like a useless stat. While there is a strong correlation between Runs and OBP, it doesn't always hold true.

Some guys are just better hitters with the bases loaded (Posada, Ventura, etc.) Matsui is hitting .435 with the bases loaded...even more proof he earned his RBIs.

I also think the 4 RBIs are deserved when hitting a grand slam. With a grand slam, there are 4 runs created (Runs Created = (Runs + RBI)/2.

The hitter gets credit for 2.5 of those and the guys on base get .5 each. That sounds pretty fair to me because the guy that hit the homerun gets the majority of the credit - 62.5%.
pieman
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.21


You're totally missing my point. The "act" of hitting the homerun is the same whether there are three men on base or no men on base. Getting "credit" because you have better teammates does not make that particular player better. It means he hit more times with runners on base. Barry Bonds is a great example. Is he a worse hitter than Matsui because he has less RBI? No, it's because he's a better hitter that they don't pitch to him with runners on quite a lot of the time.



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PalpatineW
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
One does not score runs by magic. One scores runs by getting on base, and by advancing. Soriano gets on, and Soriano steals. That is his sole contribution to scoring a run. The fact that Soriano scored a run more than half the time he got on base last year is a credit to his baserunning, sure, but by and large it's a credit to the men hitting behind him.

With a better OBP, say .380, Soriano would have scored 145 runs. With a Giambi-like .400 OBP, he would have scored 153. Sure, he scored a lot of runs, but do you think he would have scored nearly as many if he played for, say, the Tigers?



Johnny Cash
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jfkfc
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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.87
    Originally posted by skorpio17
    This line of thinking is really pissing me off. It sounds like folks are saying guys from Japan should be ineligible for ROY awards. This is bullshit.

    First off he is eligible because the rules clearly say he is. There should be no controversy.

    I don't even see what basis you could change the rules to make Japanese players ineligible. If it is an age thing...Posednik is old enough to be a cast member on Friends. Dennis Quaid was pretty old and he was obviously a rookie because that's even the title of his movie.

    If it is an experience thing, I also don't see it. Playing in Japan is the same level of Triple A. Matsui is seeing pitches here in the majors that he neve faced in Japan. It is a different level. You have guys from Cuba with fake IDs and they are all eligible (Contreras).

    If you wanted to go back in history and retroactively apply these stricter eligibility rules, you'd have to take back the ROY awards from Jackie Robinson, Fernando Valenzuela, and every other "rookie" on that list.
It is not a question of age. It is not a "you are from this country or that country" thing, or even an age issue. The Japanese major league can be compared talent-wise to AAA perhaps, no arguement there. It is so vastly different though, and outside of talent, is exactly the same as our major leagues in every possible way (other than slightly different rules, of course). Matsui, as was Suzuki, Sasaki, and Nomo, is a seasoned professional. I am not arguing his eligibility, Skorp, the guy is the ROY. No one else should get it in the AL. You just can't compare a guy making $8 million, is 29, been the object of his country's affection for over 6 years, has every moment of his life chronicaled for legions of fans, gotten batting titles and MVPs. The Baldellis can't compete with that. How would you compare the experience of playing in a high school game, or even a state championship to the experience of playing a World Series game on national TV with 60 plus thousand fans screaming? I agree with you, the rule is there and the requirements are what they are as they have been since the days of #42 (not Mariano). If Matsui is not the American League Rookie of the Year, it will be a travesty, no matter what kind of numbers Baldelli, Gerut, Crawford, Harden, or Berroa put up from now until the end of the season. My opinion, anyway.

I was listening to a dicussion about the topic with Michael Kay on his ESPN radio show, and he made a good point. They might want to consider putting a salary requirement on the ROY candidates. Maybe $1 million, or something a little closer to the ML minimum. That would exclude a Matsui and a Contreras, as well as an Alphonso Soriano (who signed a huge minor-league deal with the Yanks out of Japan), so it is at least a little flawed, but I see his point. A seasoned professional with experience is paid as one. Perhaps it would be fairer and more "in the spirit" of the ROY award to put this in now. Matsui was quoted as saying that he didn't come to the Yanks to be rookie of the year, and I honestly take him at that, and that it would seem really insignificant compared to a title/ring.

I totally agree with your points, Skorp, you made great ones, but I was just trying to go more of a "yeah, but how about...." route.



The memories of my family outings are still a source of strength to me. I remember we'd all pile into the car - I forget what kind it was - and drive and drive. I'm not sure where we'd go, but I think there were some trees there. The smell of something was strong in the air as we played whatever sport we played. I remember a bigger, older guy we called "Dad." We'd eat some stuff, or not, and then I think we went home. I guess some things never leave you.

If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."
pieman
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he feels








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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.21


    Originally posted by jfkfc
    If Matsui is not the American League Rookie of the Year, it will be a travesty, no matter what kind of numbers Baldelli, Gerut, Crawford, Harden, or Berroa put up from now until the end of the season.


    I was listening to a dicussion about the topic with Michael Kay on his ESPN radio show, and he made a good point. They might want to consider putting a salary requirement on the ROY candidates.


Travesty? Now that's an exageration. Travesty would be if Matsui was the only legit candidate and someone like Colby Lewis won.

As for Michael Kay - I think he reads Rob Neyer on ESPN.com and doesn't attribute.

(edited by CRZ on 19.9.03 0740)


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PalpatineW
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Let's check out these lines, here.

BERROA

.293/.342/.462/.803

His counting stats are: 85 R, 71 RBI, 16 HR. He's swiped 18 bags and been caught 5 times for a solid 78% success rate.

MATSUI

.286/.348/.437/.786

Matsui has 78 R, 16 HR, 104 RBI, has stolen two bases and been caught twice for a detrimental 50% success rate.

Look closely, and you will notice that Matsui has been outslugged by Berroa. The only advantage Matsui has over Berroa is in the RBI category, and that is plain and simple a result of where he plays and where he bats. Furhtermore, Berroa plays at SS, making his accomplishments stand out all the more. Matsui, as an outfielder, barely outshines Baldelli.

So, unless this award is for the rookie with the most RBIs, Matsui does not deserve it.



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JayJayDean
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
    Originally posted by skorpio17
    This line of thinking is really pissing me off. It sounds like folks are saying guys from Japan should be ineligible for ROY awards. This is bullshit.

    First off he is eligible because the rules clearly say he is. There should be no controversy.

    I don't even see what basis you could change the rules to make Japanese players ineligible. If it is an age thing...Posednik is old enough to be a cast member on Friends. Dennis Quaid was pretty old and he was obviously a rookie because that's even the title of his movie.

    If it is an experience thing, I also don't see it. Playing in Japan is the same level of Triple A. Matsui is seeing pitches here in the majors that he neve faced in Japan. It is a different level. You have guys from Cuba with fake IDs and they are all eligible (Contreras).

    If you wanted to go back in history and retroactively apply these stricter eligibility rules, you'd have to take back the ROY awards from Jackie Robinson, Fernando Valenzuela, and every other "rookie" on that list.


Fernando was 20 when he won the ROTY award, so he's hardly a good example of what you're talking about.

As a frequent watcher (though less so nowadays) of Mariner games, I often hear references to Ichiro's 8 straight batting titles, 7 in Japan and one here. I think if a guy won 7 straight AAA batting tiles, they would not be thought of with nearly the same prestige as they are. (Of course, the announcers here are big homers, and no one outside of Seattle might give a crap about Ichiro's 7 Japanese batting titles.)

I think the NHL has the ROTY award spirit right by putting an age limit on it for eligibility. I hate that Ichiro was a "rookie." It's kind of like when Nigel Mansell (the Formula 1 World Driving Champion) came over to race IndyCars and won the ROTY awards. Why wouldn't he be the best first-year driver on the circuit, he's the WORLD DRIVING CHAMPION?! That's always bugged me. I think a guy like Podsednik should be eligible as a long minor-leaguer, but the spirit of the rule should put a limit on qualification.




Washington Huskies, 1-1. USC didn't look THAT great after the first quarter, so I'm more optimistic that they'll be the 2003 Pac-10 champs.
darkdragoon
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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.00
yeah, from my POV being ineligible for participating in a foreign league etc. would also hurt guys playing winter ball in Mexico etc., it would have to be a games played/IP/AB type thing like they already to to qualify for ROY. And even then, I'm sure one of the attractiveness of a Matsui coming over is a chance to be ROY in the US.
pieman
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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.21


    Originally posted by darkdragoon
    I'm sure one of the attractiveness of a Matsui coming over is a chance to be ROY in the US.


I'm sure it's the $6 million paycheck he's drawing this season and not a plaque that's attractive.



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I saw him play last season down in Memphis, he had a terrific game and was just a vacuum around 2nd. Hard to say Vina should get his place back once he is healthy, Hart is playing so damn good.
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