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The W - Baseball - Are the Red Sox insnae?!?
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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
From ESPN.com

The Diamondbacks and Red Sox are close to completing a major trade, pending the approval of Arizona owner Jerry Colangelo, ESPN's Peter Gammons reports. The deal would send pitcher Byung-Hyun Kim to Boston for third baseman Shea Hillenbrand.

The deal has been conditionally agreed upon. Arizona pitchers Matt Mantei and Brandon Webb are both hurt, but it is not known how much impact these injuries will have on a possible trade.

"There are factors that could still kill it," a source tells Gammons.

Mantei and Webb will undergo MRIs Thursday to determine the severity of their arm problems. Mantei has been bothered by slight stiffness in his elbow, while Webb has been put on the disabled list with tightness in his forearm.

Kim, who has served as the D-Backs' closer in the past, has been in the starting rotation this season. He is only 1-5, but has a respectable 3.56 ERA with 33 strikeouts in 43 innings.

Hillenbrand, who has also played first base and served as DH this season, has been rumored to be on the trading block all season. Hillenbrand is hitting .303 with 38 RBI in 185 at-bats this season. Infielder Bill Mueller, who was acquired by Boston before the start of the season, is hitting .382, which makes Hillenbrand even more expendable.

The addition of another starter certainly could give the Red Sox a lift in the American League East race. Boston recently moved into first place ahead of the rival Yankees. The Red Sox ace, Pedro Martinez, is currently on the disabled list with a strained muscle in his back, but may return this weekend or early next week.

* * * * * *

There is absolutley no way I make this trade. Kim is too much of risk as a starter. In the bullpen maybe. But I certianly would give up Hillenbrand for Kim. As part of the Colon deal maybe, but not this.


(edited by Grimis on 29.5.03 1529)


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redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 390 days
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#2 Posted on
First, we are insane. Oh wait, its about the trade, I thought it was just the normal mental question asked about Red Sox fans. And, this is a good trade. Shea is 28 and arbitration eligible after this season. He usually plays well the first half and falls off the face of the earth in the second half. As for Kim, he's coming into the bullpen. He's not going into the rotation. Would I rather have Colon than Kim? Yes. But I'd also rather have Kim closing games in July and August than the combination of Brandon Lyon, Robert Person and Chad Fox.
And the other reason why this is a good move: Lowe, Martinez, Varitek and Garciaparra contracts are up after 2004. At most, they keep 2 of the 4. The way Lowe is reverting to his Stan Belinda'ish odd year crap/even year great form, its doubtful they resign him for big money. Kim isn't a free agent for until after 2006, so it gives them a young arm, which they have none of in their farm system.



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Keeper
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Since: 1.3.02
From: Worcester, MA

Since last post: 300 days
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#3 Posted on
I don't like it. If they are going to trade Shea, I would rather they wait and get a starter. I agree that a closer is definite need, and having someone under contract that long is nice, but Shea is really the only major leaguer on the team that has any trade value. I don't want to see them waste that on Kim, especially if he pitches like he did in the 2001 World Series.

On a related note, I have been listening to 1510 online off and on all day, and most callers' reaction since they mentioned the trade has been against the trade.

(edited by Keeper on 29.5.03 1608)


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StingArmy
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Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

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#4 Posted on

    Originally posted by Keeper
    On a related note, I have been listening to 1510 online off and on all day, and most callers' reaction since they mentioned the trade has been against the trade.

That's probably because the last image most people have in their heads of Kim is him nearly single-handedly blowing the '01 Series.

On another point, is it a definite that he's going to be a closer once again instead of a starter? Do they have no faith in his starting abilities or is there just no need for another starter right now? I would find the latter hard to believe. Has he already reverted to closing for the D'Backs?

- StingArmy
Whitebacon
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Since: 12.1.02
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#5 Posted on
The deed has been done. The Sox say he'll stay a starter, but I think they may convince him to close eventually.



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Since: 3.1.02
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#6 Posted on
redsox, if Lowe's contract is up in 2004, by what you just described, he'll have a good year then. I wouldn't place long odds on Red Sox management deciding Lowe's turned the corner myself.

That being said, I think it'll end up helping the Sox more than the D-Backs. I'm not convinced Hillenbrand can have a good season all through; don't think I need to say that won't look good come playoff-time. Kim gives them flexbility; they can put him in there as a 4th or 5th starter, or since the pen isn't that great, they can just shoehorn him in there. They now have a measure of flexibility; Lyon knows that there's a good chance he'll lose his job if he doesn't start getting people out, and Burkett (or whomever's starting on the back end for the Sox) now has to contend with a new starter.

Meanwhile, Matt Williams loses his job. (What, he's still playing?)







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Keeper
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Since: 1.3.02
From: Worcester, MA

Since last post: 300 days
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#7 Posted on

    Originally posted by StingArmy
    On another point, is it a definite that he's going to be a closer once again instead of a starter? Do they have no faith in his starting abilities or is there just no need for another starter right now? I would find the latter hard to believe. Has he already reverted to closing for the D'Backs?

    - StingArmy



According to this article on ESPN, they plan to start Kim on Tuesday in Pittsburgh. My opinion on the trade earlier was because of an asumption (I know ) that he would be the closer. Now that I know that he will be a starter (acording to the article, and for the time being), I'll have to wait and see. He'll replace Pedro for now (IMHO), but if he(Pedro) comes back healthy, who moves to the bullpen? Hopefully not Wakefield, he's been doing pretty good this year.

I am probably making rash judgements on something that we'll never know how it works out until *months* from now. (But, all Red Sox fan's do this) :)



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Abmulabmu
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Since: 10.12.01

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.56
The Big Z himself gave me permission to tell you guys you are fucking dumb!

First and foremost, Kim has been better than Colon this year. How is he a risk as a starter? Any moreso than praying Hillenbrand improves his atrocious performance post-April? He's not and you're dumb and gay. CHECK THE STATS, FOOL.

"I don't want to see them waste that on Kim, especially if he pitches like he did in the 2001 World Series."

Would you say this if they trade for, say, Mariano Rivera? Probably, because you are a moron.


"I don't like it. If they are going to trade Shea, I would rather they wait and get a starter. "

NEWSFLASH, WEINER. Kim is a starter! In fact, he can both start and relieve. Thus, he is quite valuable. Moreso, certainly, on a team that has a third baseman hitting .380, several guys who can take Gea's useless ABs and do something with them, and a need for pitching.




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Since: 1.8.02
From: Phoenix-ish

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#9 Posted on
Personally, I was much happier with Kim as a starter than a reliever. You just never know where his brain is going to go in a pressure situation (He's only 24, after all.), which is not really ideal for a reliever. Brenley was trying to show great confidence in Kim in the world series, but it was just too much pressure for a kid that young. Although his won/lost this year looks bad, it wasn't him -- our hitting was just appalling. Kim does a rpetty decent job as a starter. He's been on the DL for a while -- I seem to recall that he got whacked in the ankle with a broken bat -- something like that.

Brenley realises that he needs infield depth behind our "old guys". He's got Lyle Overbay at first "backing up" Mark Grace. He was using Craig Counsell at second, or at third to cover for Matt Williams. Since Counsell mangled his thumb, Brenley's been looking for somebody that he can use when Matt is having a bad game. (And if the guy can hit, at least for a couple more months, that's helpful.)
Keeper
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Since: 1.3.02
From: Worcester, MA

Since last post: 300 days
Last activity: 20 hours
#10 Posted on
    Originally posted by Abmulabmu
    The Big Z himself gave me permission to tell you guys you are fucking dumb!

    First and foremost, Kim has been better than Colon this year. How is he a risk as a starter? Any moreso than praying Hillenbrand improves his atrocious performance post-April? He's not and you're dumb and gay. CHECK THE STATS, FOOL.

    "I don't want to see them waste that on Kim, especially if he pitches like he did in the 2001 World Series."

    Would you say this if they trade for, say, Mariano Rivera? Probably, because you are a moron.


    "I don't like it. If they are going to trade Shea, I would rather they wait and get a starter. "

    NEWSFLASH, WEINER. Kim is a starter! In fact, he can both start and relieve. Thus, he is quite valuable. Moreso, certainly, on a team that has a third baseman hitting .380, several guys who can take Gea's useless ABs and do something with them, and a need for pitching.



Why would you call someone "fucking dumb!", "dumb and gay", a "FOOL", and a "moron" for stating an opinion? I am sorry if I offended you (or anyone else for that matter) for being a bit skeptical about the trade.

I just hoped they would have waited until near the deadline and tried to get a #2 starter. I mean Kim is 1-5 this year as a starter. I know his ERA is very good, and Arizona hasn't been doing well, but *maybe* someone better might have been available later in the year. Plus, who else on the major league roster beside Fossum do they have now to trade?

I would have been very positive if it was Mariano Rivera. A closer like that is very rare. (Even if he did give up the lead in the game against the Sox recently.)

As far as Kim as a starter, If they keep him in the rotation after Pedro comes back and he does well, then I will admit that it was a great trade and move on.




(edited by Keeper on 30.5.03 2259)


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PalpatineW
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
According to Little, Kim's going to start one game and then head to the pen. Burkett, on the other hand, should be headed out to pasture. Personally, I'd rather start Kim. It's not the closer (Lyon) who's been the real problem. It's, basically, everyone not named Pedro or Lyon.

Here's a handy link to the Globe's coverage of the whole deal. Older stories are towards the bottom of the page.

http://www.boston.com/sports/redsox/



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Whitebacon
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

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#12 Posted on
His record isn't indicative of his performance.
In BK's 5 losses, the Dbacks have scored 11 runs. Of those 11 runs, 9 were scored after Kim left the game. So, while he was still in the game, and still had a shot at getting a W, in those losses, he had two whole runs behind him. In his first start, he went 5 IP, 2 ER, 5 H, 1 BB, and 3 K's (L). His second: 6, 4, 5, 3, and 5(L). Third: 6, 1, 5, 1, and 6 (L). Fourth: 7, 3, 5, 3, and 1 (W). Fifth: 7, 1, 3, 2, and 5 (L). Sixth: 5, 5, 6, 2, 7 (L). After that, he was on the DL with a bruised right ankle. Seventh start: 7 IP, 1 ER, 5 H, 3 BB, and 6 K's (ND). EDIT (2): Opponents have hit .214 against him this year.

Of his seven starts this year, he's had five of what is defined a quality start (min. 6IP, min. 3 ER), and pitched in what could have been good enough to win in six of them (the second start being the other[6ip, 4er]).

Complaining about his record isn't all that valid. If you want to complain about the sample of what we have to go by to determine his skills as a starter that's fine, but he's pitched good enough to win in five of seven. That's pretty damned good. When you take into account his history as a setup man(stellar), and his history as a closer (very good-14 saves in 2000, 19 in 01, 36 last year), and the Red Sox' strengths versus their weaknesses, this trade makes a lot of sense for them. Rob Neyer says this all better than I do HERE .

EDIT #1: Linkage

(edited by Whitebacon on 30.5.03 2101)

(edited by Whitebacon on 30.5.03 2133)

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Abmulabmu
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Since: 10.12.01

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.56
"Why would you call someone "fucking dumb!", "dumb and gay", a "FOOL", and a "moron" for stating an opinion?"

Because it's a fucking dumb, gay, foolish and moronic opinion. Like duh. Who the fuck is going to give up a #2 starter for suck ass Hillenbrand in JULY by which point his OPS will be about .700? You? Also there's, like, no rule that says they can't trade anyone else. Kim can fill any pitching need, while Hillenbrand fills...no need whatsoever. Oh noooo he's 1-5! Well God. I wonder what Wakefield or Lowe's records would be if they played for Arizona, probably worse than Kim's! (PS Arizona is a good hitters park.) You have no point. As for Kim, Rivera and the World Series, remind me how it ended OH YEAH Rivera blew it. So let's quit whining about that, y'all retards. Kim also blew away the Yankees for 1 2/3 innings in those games.



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Keeper
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Since: 1.3.02
From: Worcester, MA

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#14 Posted on

    Originally posted by Abmulabmu
    Because it's a fucking dumb, gay, foolish and moronic opinion.


I am glad you are open minded on these things. I am sorry, I'll try not to think in the future. Can you tell me who is going to win the World Series, I'd like to get my bet in now. :)



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Abmulabmu
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Since: 10.12.01

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.56
Hey Captain America, you clearly were not thinking in the first place, which would explain why you said something so stupid. Saying ooohhhhh his ERA is good, but he's 1-5!!!! is clearly not thinking.

Also:

"Personally, I was much happier with Kim as a starter than a reliever. You just never know where his brain is going to go in a pressure situation (He's only 24, after all.), which is not really ideal for a reliever. Brenley was trying to show great confidence in Kim in the world series, but it was just too much pressure for a kid that young. "

Please go check what guys like Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, and Mariano Rivera did in the playoffs before they were 27. Or go check what Dennis Eckersley did in 1988. Was he too young? Or perhaps Rivera in 2001? Was the theme of that World Series lost on ALL OF YOU. Kim blew two big games. Get over it. He saved 70 other ones.

(edited by Abmulabmu on 31.5.03 0617)


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JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

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#16 Posted on
As a former die-hard Red Sox fan (I lived in Massachusetts until '89, after moving out here stayed true to the BoSox until '94, then it was impossible not to be a Mariners' fan after '95 happened) I believe that this just appears to be another example of Red Sox Nation (as opposed to the wiener, redsoxnation) loving and putting too much value on an over-achieving, under-talented, scrappy Caucasian infielder. See Jody Reed, Lou Merloni, Marty Barrett, Spike Owen, etc.

(I know I'm somewhat implying a racial theme there, but I really don't mean it in a racial context. It's just that they're all, you know, *white* guys.)

Rob Neyer said that Hillenbrand has the 48th best OPS in baseball. I'm sure that most of the guys ranked 45-49 would get traded for Kim in a heartbeat (slumping superstars excepted).



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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
I've got a feeling that Hillenbrand will fall apart in the NL.

Kim could be a sleeper pickup for the rest of the season. It'll depend on how he adjusts to the AL, though I guarantee he'll be bombed his first time in Yankee Stadium.



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emma
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Since: 1.8.02
From: Phoenix-ish

Since last post: 122 days
Last activity: 9 hours
#18 Posted on

    Originally posted by Abmulabmu
    Hey Captain America, you clearly were not thinking in the first place, which would explain why you said something so stupid. Saying ooohhhhh his ERA is good, but he's 1-5!!!! is clearly not thinking.

    Also:

    "Personally, I was much happier with Kim as a starter than a reliever. You just never know where his brain is going to go in a pressure situation (He's only 24, after all.), which is not really ideal for a reliever. Brenley was trying to show great confidence in Kim in the world series, but it was just too much pressure for a kid that young. "

    Please go check what guys like Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, and Mariano Rivera did in the playoffs before they were 27. Or go check what Dennis Eckersley did in 1988. Was he too young? Or perhaps Rivera in 2001? Was the theme of that World Series lost on ALL OF YOU. Kim blew two big games. Get over it. He saved 70 other ones.

    (edited by Abmulabmu on 31.5.03 0617)

If I thought for a moment that you were interested in having a discussion (rather than just expounding on how "fucking dumb" the rest of the world is), I would point out that I was talking about one specific person at age 22. Kim blew 2 big games, & the Diamondbacks won the seires anyway -- I'm unclear on what exactly it is that I/we are supposed to "get over", & what you're talking about by "the theme of that World Series". But I'm apparently "fucking dumb", so that's all to be expected, I suppose.

Lovely chatting with you ...
Abmulabmu
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Since: 10.12.01

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.56
Kim pitched in Yankee Stadium last year, genius.

"Kim blew 2 big games, & the Diamondbacks won the seires anyway -- I'm unclear on what exactly it is that I/we are supposed to "get over", & what you're talking about by "the theme of that World Series". "

Uh how about you can't just say oh the guy's young! and have it hold water because other, younger players have performed in the same situations, and Kim himself saved 70 fucking games before he was 24. Mariano Rivera, a ripe 31 years old, blew the World Series. Age has absolutely nothing to do with it. Anyone who watched that World Series could see that ANY reliever could have a bad fucking game, whether he's a 22 year old in his 2nd year, or the best postseason closer of all time. This ain't Shakespeare.



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PalpatineW
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
Sox designated ole Bruce Chen for assignment today. That was a memorable couple weeks he had with us, there.



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