The Maniac Says: My point is The united nations made a resolution in 1947 Some text (yale.edu) to allow the formation of an Israel State. The Jewish people declared independence 1948 creating the State Some text (yale.edu) and according to Article 39 - Article 42 applies - Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.
If something is not done, we will still be hearing about their troubles in 50 years.
Maniac. It is up to Hamas, the PLO, Israel, and the other parties involved to decide to solve this. The rest of the world can do all it wants but until they decide to solve this, it won't go away. All the Palestinian factions must unite and seek peace or it wont happen.
I think Israel has gone too far, but I have a hard time faulting them for their reaction and I think that is what Hamas wants. They lose if the violence stops.
(edited by DrDirt on 23.3.04 1403) Perception is reality
Originally posted by DrDirtManiac, overall the Arab community is using the Palestinians. Before this became a cause celeb within the Arab world, the Palestinians were the bastard step-children of that region. They were passed around and even thrown out of Jordan. The Palestinians are simply a pawn in the larger context of the struggle against Israel.
But Doc, that doesn't mitigate their guilt in this - they could back down and give in and live and let live. For better or worse, that's what happens when a stronger power exists.
Thrill mentioned earlier that an only good member of Hamas was a dead member of Hamas. I think it's an apt analogy. From about 1820 until 1900, we had our own issues with a local minority that resented us moving into what they consiered "their" lands. And we fought, back and forth, for 80 years (and more - it just was only hard fighting for about 30 years).
The difference: they (and to a lesser extent, we) fought fair. We fought each other's armies, for the most part. Sure, both sides attacked villages from time to time, but most of the fighting was between organized military groups - armies on the side of the USA and mostly smaller organized groups on the side of the Indians.
and now? I can't think about it, I am due at the Casino...
Not to take this thread in a completely different direction, but you might want to educate yourself on the indigenous conflicts in the US. It wasn't exactly the fairest of fights.
As for the Hamas/PLO/Israel issue, these people have been fighting for millenia. They're not going to stop fighting. If Bill Clinton offering interns for everyone wasn't going to get them to stop, nothing will. I'm all for carpetbombing the whole region into a parking lot.
Originally posted by James F'n XNot to take this thread in a completely different direction, but you might want to educate yourself on the indigenous conflicts in the US. It wasn't exactly the fairest of fights.
You might, my friend. Don't believe all the hype they teach you in the white schools. I am Native American. We'd have kicked you out of here if it wasn't for manufacturing. We has the better cavalry, we had the better shots, we had the better horses. We just didn't have the better factories.
Now, we're talking 1800s, not ancient history and smallpox and all that jazz. We killed a few, and we were killed back. Sure, when the Union got done fighting the south, they came at us full force. And Little Big Horn pissed you off, so, yeah, you kicked serious butt.
And so, after a long time and a long time in the reservations - people like my Grandmother got smart. They joined society and started to enter the civilized world.
Today, while I recognize my heritage - and my Irish heritage as well, I don't dwell on it. I think the majority of the people in my racial group have been destroyed by government handouts and alledged support instead of doing useful work - which they could have done in the same way that many of my aunt and uncles did - leaving Oklahoma and going to the great cities, where there was work. And integrating into the useful part of society. Today, it's as exploitive as it was before, it's just Casinos instead of firewater.
The Palestinians - they're in the freest land in the Middle east, The Arabs that are Israeli citizens love it, for the most part - they are free. The Palestinians could be that - or they could have their own state - just like the Indians could have had a HUGE chunk of the west - but no, both us and them, we'd rather fight to the death. And that's what it's gonna be.
I hope in 100 years, one of them can look back and say just what I am saying - I am sure glad my Grandma got out of Gaza and into Israel and is free and part of a useful society that works and means something.
does that make sense? Sure, you can spout that Native American Studies crap that is in the Universities - but talk to the old-timers, they'll tell you their grandads had every intention of killing every white man. It's the same with the Palestinians. That's what has to change. Israelis have no trouble with Arabs - there's a huge population of them in Israel - in fact, many Israelis are Arab - just like there were Indians who were part of society in the 1800s - but the dangerous ones had to be subdued, or no one was safe. Like in Israel.
Well, at least he kept one of his campaign promises, now he needs to keep the other which is Afghanistan. I am not sure what the point is anymore with Osama dead, but we are dealing with the Military Industrial Complex here.