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The W - Current Events & Politics - Another Michael Moore except - Admit That The Left Has Made Mistakes
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OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 1819 days
Last activity: 995 days
#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.01
I'm reading his new book, and thought this passage was far too interesting to not post here. It's from the chapter "How To Talk To Your Conservative Brother-In-Law". He gives a list of tactics to discuss politics and perhaps change the mind of conservatives you disagree with, but don't necessarily dislike (and therefore don't want to get into a shouting-match with.) That's how I'd describe most of the conservatives on this board, incidently.

One of his suggestions is to admit the left has made mistakes, and he gives us five pages worth as examples. I'll concede most of these (I'm sorry - milk is bad for you even if PETA's a group of fucktards, and I can't bring myself to say anything nice about Ann Coulter.)

I hereby challenge the conservatives on this board to come up with a similar list of mistakes made by the right. He's right - this is the first step towards finding common ground. (And, personally, I'm sick to death of all the partisan bickering. And, yes, I'm aware how amazingly hypocritical that is coming from myself.)

...

Admit That The Left Has Made Mistakes
Ouch. This is a tough one. I know, screw them, we're not the ones who need to confess. But if you admit that, on occasion, you have been wrong, it's easier for the other person to consider what they have been wrong about, too. It also makes you appear to be more human and less of a jerk. I sat here for two full days staring at the computer before I could bring myself to continue on this point, but here's a start on what we've been wrong about.
  • Mumia probably killed that guy. There, I said it. That does not mean he should be denied a fair trial or that he should be put to death. But because we don't want to see him or anyone executed, the efforts to defend him may have overlooked the fact that he did indeed kill that cop. This takes nothing away from the eloquence of his writings or commentary, or the important place he now holds on the international political stage. But he probably did kill that guy.
  • Drugs are bad. They fuck you up, slow you down and ruin your daily existence. Even though Nancy Reagan can kiss my ass, you really should just say no.
  • Men and women are different. We are not the same gender. Do I have to show you the drawings? We are conditioned, whether through nature or society, to have our own peculiar quirks and desires and habits. The trick is how to make sure these quirks are not too annoying to the other gender. For instance, very few women pull out a gun and shoot someone on the street. The chance that a woman will mug you tonight on the way home from work is somewhere around nil. That is a quirk specific to my gender. Likewise, very few men could give a shit about making the bed. Why make the bed? Who is going to see it? What are we doing, protecting the sheets from something we don't want them to see during the day while we're at work?
  • It's really a bad idea to have sex before you're eighteen. Okay, maybe I'm just jealous because I had to wait until I was thirty-two. Nonetheless, the price to pay for teenage sex is pretty high - unwanted pregnancy, disease, and ending up with one ear bigger than the other because it's always cocked toward the front door in case the parents come home early. Who needs this? And, if possible, no one these days should have a baby until they are well into their twenties or thirties. There is practically no way, in our serf-based economy, for you to pull this off without a lot of pain and suffering.
  • MTV sucks. Watching dumb-ass images of women, violence and The Real World actors who've seen one too many episodes of The Real World themselves is the worst possible way to spend an afternoon. You'd be better off having teenage sex and then reading a book together.
  • Granola is bad for you. It is filled with sugar and fat. One study found that many brands of breakfast granola are higher per serving in saturated fat than five chocolate-chip cookies or one slice of orange-carrot cake.
  • Vegitarianism is unhealthy. Humans need protein, and lots of it. Put down those sprouts and pick up a T-bone!
  • The sun is good for you. Your skin needs at least ten minutes of direct sunlight a day for a much-needed shot of Vitamin D. Quit slapping all that sunblock over your kids. If you really are concerned about UV rays and skin cancer, then ask yourself, "When was the last time I attended a Greenpeace meeting in order to help make things better?"
  • People who commit violent crimes should be locked up. Dangerous people should not be out on the street. Yes, they should get help. Yes, they should get rehabilitation. Yes, we should look for ways to reduce the root causes of crime. But no one has the right to assault you or rip you off and if you can't bring yourself to show at least an ounce of outrage against those who would harm you, then you look like a wimp or a nut to most normal people. In fact, I want to assault you right now.
  • Your children do not have a right to privacy and you better pay attention to what they are up to. Right now, as you are reading this, they are doing something. What are they doing? See, you don't even have a clue. Put down this book and head upstairs immediately!
  • Not all unions are good. In fact, many of them are just plain lousy. They got their members to sign up for the company's 401(k) plan, and then -poof!- the money vanished. They adopted right-wing nationalism and turned "Buy USA" into a racist movement. There are two good unions: SEIU (Service Employees International Union) and UE (United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America). Contact them if you want to organize your workplace, or for some general online guidance in how to unionize, check out www.aflcio.org/aboutunions/howto/. If you belong to one of the lazy, ineffective unions who are in bed with management or Bush, then you need to get your sorry ass down to the next union meeting and run for office.
  • SUVs are not inherently evil. The fact that the use so much gas, that they are constructed to be killer machines, and that yuppie weasels drive them in urban areas is evil. Mostly SUVs are just horribly uncomfortable and the ride is too bumpy.
  • Getting back to nature is a dumb idea. Nature doesn't want you anywhere near it. That's why nature created cities - to keep you as far away as possible.
  • Bill O'Reilly makes a few good points. He's against the death penalty, he's an advocate for kids, and he opposes NAFTA. Okay, he's still a jerk, but even a jerk can be right some of the time.
  • Too many of us hold a hoity-toity view of religion and think the religious are superstitious fifteenth-century ignoramuses. We're wrong, and they have as much a right to their religion as those among us who have no religion. This arrogance is a big reason the lower classes will always side with the Republicans.
  • We have a namby-pamby way of saying things. It's like we invented our own language - and it annoys the hell out of anyone we're trying to get to listen to us. Knock off the PC mumbo-jumbo, quit trying to be so sensitive and just say what's on your mind. Less wimp and more OOMPH!
  • Why are you still bitching about right-wing author Ann Coulter? Sure, she's as crazy as a loon, but she's got more balls than the entire Democratic Leadership Council. You're just jealous because we don't have an Ann Coulter. And stop looking at her damn legs! That's why she's got you so jumbled up!
  • The proposed "Liberal Radio Network"? What a stupid waste of time! Radio? Are you serious? What century are you in? Gee, why stop there - let's set up a Liberal Pony Express! How about a Liberal Morse Code? S-O-S! Get into the twenty-first century! Get a TV network. Get an Internet network. Get Snoop Dogg and 50 Cent to run for office.
  • Animals don't have rights. Yes, they should be treated humanely. Yes, Tyson Foods and all the others that "harvest" chickens are disgusting. But "freeing" chickens from their factory farms is idiotic. They don't know how to survive in the wild and they're just going to get hit by a truck. And lay off carrying on about the milk, no matter how bad it is for you. You just look like a dumbass if you go on national TV, like PETA does, to argue that beer is better for the body than milk. This shit just makes me wanna go kick my dog.
  • Nixon was more liberal than the last five presidents we've had. His administration opened up a dialogue with China. He was instrumental in establishing affirmative action in hiring and protecting the rights of women. He was the first president to sign agreements on nuclear weapons control. Nixon was responsible for the 1970 Clean Air Act and created the Department of Natural Resources and the Environmental Protection Agency. He gave us Title IX to force tax monies to go to women's sports. He also attempted a type of welfare reform that would have guaranteed an income for the poor. Nixon still should have been out of office, and the millions of dead in Southeast Asia will haunt him throughout eternity. But to think that he was the last "liberal" in office makes me want to puke.


(edited by OlFuzzyBastard on 9.10.03 0031)


Okay, so I'm not banned. But still people - Schwartzenegger?!
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eviljonhunt81
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Since: 6.1.02
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.56
If you want conservatives to post anything you're looking for, perhaps you should come up with a list of things the left should really apologize for.



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Michrome
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Since: 2.1.03

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Does the left really have to "admit" that men and women are different?

Here we go:

Pat Robertson is a lunatic: There, I said it. The guy has no place in the mainstream, and I hope he burns in hell for implying that America's decline in moral standard lead to 9/11.

Jerry Falwell: See above

Michael Savage is an idiot: Anyone who hopes that gay people die from AIDS should die from a more painful death. He is a ramblic lunatic who should be ignored.

Global Warming is most likely real: There, I said it. But it doesn't mean that I agree that it will be the soon peril of the earth.

The filibuster is not racist: The filibuster of Estrada has nothing to do with race, it is purely ideologically driven.







Yep, I forgot the password to my original name.
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 1819 days
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.01
    Originally posted by eviljonhunt81
    If you want conservatives to post anything you're looking for, perhaps you should come up with a list of things the left should really apologize for.


1) I didn't write it.
2) Such as?

Michrome, I'm impressed. That's exactly what I was looking for. Common ground, people. Common ground.

(By the way, who the hell likes Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson?! I've talked politics with dozens of people in my life - liberal, conservative, Democrat, Republican, Green, Libertarian, white, black, hispanic, asian, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, atheist, etc. etc. etc, and I've never met anyone who didn't think those two were ignorant bags of hot air who make their whole religion look bad.)



Okay, so I'm not banned. But still people - Schwartzenegger?!
eviljonhunt81
Pepperoni








Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

Since last post: 6431 days
Last activity: 6428 days
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.56
[quote OlFuzzyBastard(By the way, who the hell likes Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson?! I've talked politics with dozens of people in my life - liberal, conservative, Democrat, Republican, Green, Libertarian, white, black, hispanic, asian, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, atheist, etc. etc. etc, and I've never met anyone who didn't think those two were ignorant bags of hot air who make their whole religion look bad.)


My point exactly. I know you didn't write the list (I can read), but it's nothing that any reasonable person would disagree with.



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Michrome
Head cheese








Since: 2.1.03

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
Some More mistakes:

Appointing Colin Powell Secretary Of State: What has he accomplished diplomatically? The guy has been an utter disaster in almost every way, and he's fucking clueless when it comes to Israel.

Not Passing the Constitutional Spending Limit: If Republicans lose in 04, it will be thanks to the deficit that is resulting from insane overspending.

The bible understood homosexuality as 2 heterosexual people just choosing to have gay sex, if it had been more clear that some people are just born this way, the bible would have permitted Gay Unions, at least in my opinion.

Invading Iraq did not help the Israel situation: This was a huge gamble Bush took, and I as well as the administration believed that the overthrow of Saddam and an American presence in the middle east would help the Israel situation. I was wrong.
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: In a Blue State finally

Since last post: 1903 days
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
You really think Colin Powell was a mistake? It seems to me (and a lot of other liberals) that the man may actually know what he's doing, yet it just ends up that Bush is always running counter to him. Of course, Powell might be an idiot. It comes from that 'Anybody acting counter to Bush can't be ALL bad' thinking.

-Jag

But hey, I'd still trust Powell's judgement about what should be done in the Middle East (at least militarily) over Bush's. There's that whole 'experience' thing....



To Make Jeb Feel Better: ;)

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The less I post, the fewer chances I have to look like an ass.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 4713 days
Last activity: 3168 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
    (By the way, who the hell likes Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson?!)

Scarily enough, I have. Of course, those few people are so far out of their minds it's not funny.



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antizeus
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Since: 3.1.02

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Powell hasn't accomplished much because the Defense department (under Rumsfeld) has been dominant (during this regime) in the ongoing rivalry between Defense and State. Maybe it would have been different if they had put a neocon in State and someone more moderate in Defense. Things seem to be shifting a bit though.



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Enojado Viento
Potato korv








Since: 12.3.02
From: Your Grocer's Freezer, NC

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.30
    Originally posted by Michrome
    Some More mistakes:

    Appointing Colin Powell Secretary Of State: What has he accomplished diplomatically? The guy has been an utter disaster in almost every way, and he's fucking clueless when it comes to Israel


He's not the Powell who's tenure I'd term a disaster.

Colin Powell I have few bad things to say about, Michael Powell, on the other hand . . .Jesus. Bad enough he spearheaded the relaxing of FCC rules but his constant sticking to his guns to ramrod it through and his general asshole attitude only makes it worse.

I mean, when FAIR and the NRA are clamouring for the FCC decision to be eliminated, that's gotta be a clear and unmistakable wake up call that the FCC is in the wrong in this case.




-LS

"ahhh...vague, mandatory knee-jerk cynicism. God Bless Internet Forums.."
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 4713 days
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Incidentally, I think this sums up Michael Moore in a heartbeat:

* * * * * * *
MOORE MONEY

Suppose you’re a fat stupid guy with no great education and not even enough motivation to last more than a single day on a production line. You complain all the time, your appearance is terrible, you struggle with accuracy, and you make enemies easily. You think the government is conspiring against you. Your overall skill-set barely qualifies you for homelessness.

With these talents, where on earth might you expect to become a millionaire?

Why, only in the US, which rewards Michael Moore with terrific wealth. His truly is a great American story; blessed only with the ability to bitch and moan and eat, Moore proves by example that even plus-size pullthroughs can make it big. Or, in his case, morbidly obese.

Yet according to Moore, nobody has a realistic shot at wealth:

Listen, friends, you have to face the truth: you are never going to be rich. The chance of that happening is about one in a million. Not only are you never going to be rich, but you are going to have to live the rest of your life busting your butt just to pay the cable bill and the music and art classes for your kid at the public school where they used to be free.

And it is only going to get worse. Forget about a pension, forget about social security, forget about your kids taking care of you when you get old because they are barely going to have the money to take care of themselves.


I wonder how Moore’s fans feel reading this rich guy telling them they’ll never be able to live in his rarefied circumstances -- having bought a copy of his book, thereby making him even richer. Like idiots, probably.

* * * * * * * * * *

Incidentall,y I saw trhe part in the Guardian piece about Moore's fascination with "Dead Peasant's Insurance." Does Moore ever cite anything, or would that prove he's full of shit?



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oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.47
Sorry, Grimis, but that excerpt is such a pile of crap it's hilarious. You may disagree with him-Lord knows even I think he's an idiot sometimes-but to say he's talentless and has got rich just by bitching and kvetching...well, Hell, if that were the case then all political analysts and most politicians themselves don't deserve a penny of what they've got.

Oh, and if you take cuts from Moore's books so arbitrarily like that, ignoring the context they're written in, you could probably find outstandingly racist, anti-semitic and sexist comments. Why don't you give that a shot?




And Lo, The Urine Shall Flow Freely In The Aisles, As Small Children And Frail Old Ladies Flee Before The Brutality, The Might, The Sheer Viciousness...Of ~EVIL COACH~!

DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 2346 days
Last activity: 2248 days
#13 Posted on
according to Moore, nobody has a realistic shot at wealth:

Listen, friends, you have to face the truth: you are never going to be rich. The chance of that happening is about one in a million. Not only are you never going to be rich, but you are going to have to live the rest of your life busting your butt just to pay the cable bill and the music and art classes for your kid at the public school where they used to be free.

And it is only going to get worse. Forget about a pension, forget about social security, forget about your kids taking care of you when you get old because they are barely going to have the money to take care of themselves.


I wonder how Moore’s fans feel reading this rich guy telling them they’ll never be able to live in his rarefied circumstances -- having bought a copy of his book, thereby making him even richer. Like idiots, probably.

* * * * * * * * * *

Incidentall,y I saw trhe part in the Guardian piece about Moore's fascination with "Dead Peasant's Insurance." Does Moore ever cite anything, or would that prove he's full of shit?

Grimmis, How much is Moore worth? While probably comfortable, I doubt he is "filthy" rich. I don't agree with alot of what he says, however, here is not wrong. For the first time in our history, those of us with children are looking at the prospect that their standard of living will not be better than ours. As a parent, that bothers the hell out of me. In Kansas we are paying for our children to do things in the public schools that used to be included in the property taxes I pay.
I and my wife make a good living combined and are able to live adequately. I did not go to college and earn three degrees just to do okay. My wife edits a weekly small town newspaper and earns a whopping $13,000 a year ( she obviously doesn't work the 60+ hours/week for the money) which is les than when she started 7 years ago. People are "busting their butts" and not able to get ahead. Both parties share a lot ot the blame. What would be helpful is if both sides of the aisle started worrying about the people in this country and quit worrying about partisian politics. Neiter party gives a rat's ass about the people. Individual politicos might but parties exist for themselves.

Edit: Linkified! -Keeper

(edited by Keeper on 10.10.03 1522)


Perception is reality
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 1819 days
Last activity: 995 days
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.01
Well, "Bowling For Columbine" did gangbusters - for a movie that I'm sure wasn't terribly expensive to fill - and "Stupid White Men..." was the best-selling nonfiction novel of 2002, so I'm sure he's doing all-right. Still, the overwhelming majority of people won't ever be a millionaire, and I don't see how that's even a controversial point.

Of course, you all are neglecting to mention the most important part of that article - Michael Moore is fat. Jeebus, that's almost all he says. I mean, Ann Coulter looks like a skeleton in a mini-skirt, but if I'm attacking her, I can generally find much more substantial points to make.

(Oh, and by the way, seeing as how Michrome was the only one who was able to admit to things "the right" has done wrong, most of you now find yourselves in a position where you're more partisan than Michael Moore. Think about that one for a while.)



Okay, so I'm not banned. But still people - Schwartzenegger?!
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 4713 days
Last activity: 3168 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Sorry, Grimis, but that excerpt is such a pile of crap it's hilarious. You may disagree with him-Lord knows even I think he's an idiot sometimes-but to say he's talentless and has got rich just by bitching and kvetching

Well he has one talent; he is one hell of a creative bullshitter and got rich and famous from that...

    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Oh, and if you take cuts from Moore's books so arbitrarily like that, ignoring the context they're written in, you could probably find outstandingly racist, anti-semitic and sexist comments. Why don't you give that a shot?

The great thing about Moore is the fact that you don't have to take the comments out of context to find wildly bombastic BS among them.

    Originally posted by DrDirt
    Grimmis, How much is Moore worth? While probably comfortable, I doubt he is "filthy" rich. I don't agree with alot of what he says, however, here is not wrong. For the first time in our history, those of us with children are looking at the prospect that their standard of living will not be better than ours


Moore is a multi-millionaire in his own words:
Moore dismissed criticism over his purchase of a million-dollar home. "I'm a millionaire, I'm a multi-millionaire," he proclaimed. "I'm filthy rich. You know why I'm a multi-millionaire? 'Cause multi-millions like what I do. That's pretty good, isn't it? There's millions that believe in what I do. Pretty cool, huh?"

Of course, he's a hypocrite anyway for his support of big business chains and his anti-union stances(and before you people go ape, this is from the Vancouver IndyMedia not exactly NewsMax):

So does that mean that Moore’s career as the pied piper of union workers is also a lie? The best that can be said is . . . not entirely. Moore appears to give a good deal of money to unions and charities. But on the road he often stays at the Ritz or Four Seasons, like other movie millionaires. (And he is always on the road: though he loves to describe himself as a slacker, he endured a 47-city book tour for Downsize This, a tour he made the subject of his disastrously narcissistic movie, The Big One, and he hit scores of cities for Stupid White Men.) Former employees have accused him of trying to stop them from joining the Writer’s Guild and, according to interviews conducted by The Weekly Standard’s Matt Labash, of creating working conditions that resemble a “sweatshop” and “indentured servitude.”

In fact, there are plenty of indications that Michael Moore is not a compassionate, big-hearted man dedicated to social justice; he just plays one on TV. When asked by a reporter from the Arcata Eye in 2002 why he wasn’t speaking at independent bookstores rather than at corporate chains, he exploded in a tirade that revealed his willingness to have his principles—in this case, his distrust of corporate power—take a backseat to his personal vengefulness. “You know in my town the small businesses that everyone wanted to protect? They were the people that supported all the right-wing groups,” he ranted. “They were the Republicans in town, they were in Kiwanis, the Chamber of Commerce—people that kept the town all white. The small hardware salesman, the small clothing store sales persons, Jesse the Barber who signed his name three different times on three different petitions to recall me from the school board. Fuck all these small businesses—fuck ’em all. Bring in the chains.”


Incidentally, I don't disagree with the fact that our kids standard of living may not be better than ours(though we have heard that before, from several fatalists). But Moore saying that is impossible is ludicrous. Regardless, Moore's ascertation is that Republicans are behind all of it, when we all know that overtaxation is the reason people are struggling to get by.



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ThreepMe
Morcilla








Since: 15.2.02
From: Dallas

Since last post: 7145 days
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.18
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by oldschoolhero
      Oh, and if you take cuts from Moore's books so arbitrarily like that, ignoring the context they're written in, you could probably find outstandingly racist, anti-semitic and sexist comments. Why don't you give that a shot?

    The great thing about Moore is the fact that you don't have to take the comments out of context to find wildly bombastic BS among them.


If it wasn't for lack of context there would be no news, or self serving opinions.



I would like to congatulate Al Snow on his contact with La-Z-Boy. Because we all know Al doesn't sell chairs. - Mick Foley




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DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 2346 days
Last activity: 2248 days
#17 Posted on
Grimis:
I don't blame Republicans or Democrats, both have contributed to our problems. As far as why, over taxation isn't why I don't enjoy a better standard of living. When we first moved to Kansas, our health care was $1200 per year. Twelve years later, it is $6,000 and the level of coverage has declined and the deductibles have tripled. Thank God we're all healthy. The other factor is Social Security and Medicare which technically are not taxes (although they really are). Combined with my employer's mandatory retirement plan, those are as much as Federal and state income tax.

I worry about our children's future, aside from standard of living, for another reason. The quality of education is declining and we worry about proficiency testing and not about educating. We are able to fill in the holes in our daughter's education because we can and we care. Many kids aren't that lucky. Then again, education dosen't seemed to be as valued as celebrity and sports. If the schools in Kansas put as much effort and time into education as sports, we would have the smartest kids in the world.

edit typos

(edited by DrDirt on 10.10.03 1607)


Perception is reality
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: In a Blue State finally

Since last post: 1903 days
Last activity: 1903 days
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by Grimis
    Well he has one talent; he is one hell of a creative bullshitter and got rich and famous from that...


So if you're so upset that a one talent hack can make multi-millions and become famous, why aren't you upset that a no talent multi-millionaie can become President?

ZING!

Seriously. If you insist on bashing Michael Moore (who definately deserves some of it) just for the sake of bashing Michael Moore, then I insist that you tell me any of the talents that George W. Bush has?

-Jag

Besides being the world's most unsuccessful businessman....

(edited by Jaguar on 10.10.03 1748)


To Make Jeb Feel Better: ;)

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ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 2178 days
Last activity: 2166 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.48
    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
    Well, "Bowling For Columbine" did gangbusters - for a movie that I'm sure wasn't terribly expensive to fill - and "Stupid White Men..." was the best-selling nonfiction novel of 2002, so I'm sure he's doing all-right. Still, the overwhelming majority of people won't ever be a millionaire, and I don't see how that's even a controversial point.

    Of course, you all are neglecting to mention the most important part of that article - Michael Moore is fat. Jeebus, that's almost all he says. I mean, Ann Coulter looks like a skeleton in a mini-skirt, but if I'm attacking her, I can generally find much more substantial points to make.

    (Oh, and by the way, seeing as how Michrome was the only one who was able to admit to things "the right" has done wrong, most of you now find yourselves in a position where you're more partisan than Michael Moore. Think about that one for a while.)


I think just most of us fail to see what the point is to making a list of things that "the right" has done wrong. I tend to consider myself on the right-hand side of political thinking, but that doesn't mean that I somehow represent some entity know as "the right". I think as an individual, and I have individual opinions on all kind of issues. Most would be on the conservative side, but some wouldn't be considered "right" as defined by most today. For example, I didn't agree with going to war with Iraq. I could say that, but so what, that's just another of my opinions, no different than any other. It's not an opinion I have hidden to protect "my side". Is Michael Moore saying that he has hidden some of his views to protect "the left"? Has he just taken the party line in the past just for the sake of taking the party line? Doesn't that make him a political hack (at least up to now)?

There are two other problems with his list. One is that there is nothing on that list that really matters. There are no major policies, no major issues. For the most part, I could care less about any of it (or they are things that are so obvious that it hardly merits an admission, I mean is there really somebody that thinks women and men are the same?). The second problem is that a lot of the so called admissions are really back-handed in a "The left is wrong, but not really." sort of way (ie most 'unions are not good, but only because they are too conservative' or 'milk IS bad for you, but we shouldn't carry on about it' or 'SUV's aren't bad except they are gas guzzlers and killing machines driven by bad yuppies and thus they are bad') , or they go ahead and take an unnecessary cheap shot at "the right" (ie 'Nancy Reagan can kiss my ass', 'O'Reilly is a blind squirrel but even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while' , 'Coulter is a loon').

I agree with Grimis's assessment of Michael Moore. I just simply don't respect him or his opinions. I'm sorry, I just don't. He does just enough twisting of facts that I can't take him seriously (I mean, much like O'Reilly, I'm sure he makes a few good points as well, but I'm simply not going to take the time to research his stuff to see if he's actually got a point or if he's twisting, stretching, or otherwise manipulating the truth). BTW, if I were to hitch my wagon to somebody with perhaps similar viewpoints, I think I would hitch it to Al Franken. But that's just me.

Finally, might it be just a tad arrogant to make the assumption that just because you asked members of the board to jump, you expect them to ask 'how high?'. Maybe others aren't making a list because they simply don't feel like making a list. Maybe they don't feel like finding common ground. It's not like we are solving the world's problems here, and this is something that is high priority.



Everything that is wrong in this world can be blamed on Freddie Prinze Jr.
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Since: 28.4.02
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You know, I was firmly in the "Jon Stewart" camp in this feud (I also backed Lindsay Lohan over Hillary Duff, Eminem over Moby, and Boogie Down Productions over the Juice Crew), but I think I"m moving.
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