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The W - Random - Angel vs. the WB
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EddieBurkett
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Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

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#1 Posted on
I don't know if this has come up in the thread about this week's Buffy, since I started ignoring that once it seemed to get too spoiler-centric, (maybe in 8 weeks I'll go back and look at it), but according to this (tv.zap2it.com), of the current crop of WB shows, Angel is one of the few that have not yet been renewed. However, before we all fret at the seemingly bad year for Joss Whedon, apparently since Angel is produced by Fox, there was a special contract with the WB to allow it to air the shows. That contract ends with this season, and the WB heads have been saying that they won't make their decision until May, suggesting that they are waiting for a new production contract before picking up any shows. (Apparently this also applies to Sabrina).

Now, according to this (tv.zap2it.com), David Greenwalt, co-creator of Angel, knows that the WB is lukewarm towards the idea of renewing Angel for another season or two. So he and Joss and two other producers went to the network and basically said they plan to completely mess around with the series for the next season in order to "increase its audience." Greenwalt: "We're going to revamp the whole show." I don't know what that means entirely, but I can't help but wonder if revamp isn't a pun of sorts.

There are also articles on Charisma Carpenter's new baby (tv.zap2it.com) and an interview with Buffy's Tom Lenk (tv.zap2it.com), too. I should point out I was directed to all this via a headline at www.buffyworld.com.


(edited by EddieBurkett on 28.3.03 0224)


I apologize for being a Buffy/Angel mark.

EddieBurkett 316 says "If you can't see my avatar, please tell me. Thank you.".

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Excalibur05
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Since: 19.1.02
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#2 Posted on
I'd be up for a revamping of the show to make it less gloomy doomy (one of the reasons I liked early Buffy so much was that for every gloomy moment, there was a funny moment to keep you entertained).

One thing that I'd like to see them drop entirely is the idea of the supporting characters getting their own episode once or twice per season. It works with some characters because they are interesting enough to carry an episode or the actor is able to use that episode to build up their character (the Anya and Fred episodes from this season are wonderful examples of this, and the Xander episodes of years past), but some get downright mediocre (I thought that the Willow, Dawn, and Wesley episodes didn't really advance anything, and that the Andrew episode was cute, but was really just cute filler), or are cluttered or ill-concieved (I like J August Richards, and I think he's a wonderful supporting character, really charming, but I don't think Gunn is interesting enough to carry a whole episode on his back like they did this week). The show is an ensomble show, and I understand the need to focus on the other members occasionally, but they've got to know who can withstand an entire episode of focus and who is best left in the background.



Satire 03/24/03 (wienerboard.com) <- No kidding, right?
Buffy 7.17 gets a 7.87 So...Spike and Wood have Oedipus complexes...riiiiight...
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Another criticism of Angel is that while hardcore fans like us love the twisty, ongoing storyline, casual viewers who watch once in a while or for the first time will have no idea what the hell is going on.



"I have no intention of uttering my last words on the stage. Room service and a couple of depraved young women will do me quite nicely for an exit."-- Peter O'Toole

"I'm gonna rip the eyes out of your head, and piss down your dead skull!"
-- Jack Nicholson, in A Few Good Men

EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc








Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

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#4 Posted on
I think you're right on that. As much as I've been enjoying the last few weeks of Angel, my girlfriend refuses to watch because she doesn't know whats going on with any of the people and doesn't understand. Especially when going back and watching the early episodes of Buffy, that show was a lot easier to get into because of the monster of the week format, with little snippets of overall season plot to advance the story without ruining the enjoyment for anyone watching the show for the first time. (Or at least, enough of a little snippet to provide intrigue as opposed to confusion.)

Then again, after four seasons (plus three on Buffy), if Angel hasn't found its audience, then there's definitely a problem.

I don't know what to make of all this.

(edited by EddieBurkett on 28.3.03 1216)


I apologize for being a Buffy/Angel mark.

EddieBurkett 316 says "If you can't see my avatar, please tell me. Thank you.".

Hiring a computer engineer? I doubt it, but I'm looking.
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 1 day
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
oh, speaking of Angel....

What happened during last week's episode? I set my VCR incorrectly and missed it.



"I have no intention of uttering my last words on the stage. Room service and a couple of depraved young women will do me quite nicely for an exit."-- Peter O'Toole

"I'm gonna rip the eyes out of your head, and piss down your dead skull!"
-- Jack Nicholson, in A Few Good Men

CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
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#6 Posted on

    Originally posted by Big Bad
    oh, speaking of Angel....

    What happened during last week's episode? I set my VCR incorrectly and missed it.

There are many other fine websites which contain show recaps. Here's one (televisionwithoutpity.com) to get you started.



©CRZ™
Excalibur05
Knackwurst








Since: 19.1.02
From: Minnesota

Since last post: 10 days
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#7 Posted on
Some of their recappers have gotten worse than IWC recappers. I can hardly make it through a Buffy write up any more.

But, yeah, they've usually got the long and short of things down.



Satire 03/24/03 (wienerboard.com) <- No kidding, right?
Buffy 7.17 gets a 7.87 So...Spike and Wood have Oedipus complexes...riiiiight...
A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 3535 days
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.59
I think the revamp will probably including the surviving cast members from both shows if WB decides to get rid of it. I would assume some cast changes will be coming on Angel as well. I know Charisma is really having a baby and wants time off. I assume she is gone, Conner and Gunn are expandable. Wesley and Willow are a real life couple no way Joss is going to piss each other of those two off. Xander and Spike would make interesting on the show. I think the rest of Angel is pretty much dead weight anyway. Wiping out everybody but Angel, Wesley and Freddie would be a good move add Willow, Xander and Spike to seal the deal. Sarah said she would do the occassionaly guest apperance, so in the end it would work out.

A Fan- The hell with WB, give Angel, X-Files' Sunday night spot its open.
EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc








Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

Since last post: 5 days
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#9 Posted on
Given that UPN is supposed to debut Willow in Sept. 2004, assuming Angel is still around then, I can see any of the cast members pretty much winding up anywhere, except for Willow and Angel, for obvious reasons. (Why did the thought just occur to me of Willow and Angel having to draft cast-members for each of their respective shows?) Anyway, based on Willow's appearance last week on Angel, I could see Wes and Fred (as a couple) heading over to her. (Did anyone else think that scene with Willow and Wes discussing their turns of late was a test to see how they could handle a scene together?) Give her Xander (since his agent said he's not going to Angel, and how can you have Willow without Xander?). If Kennedy survives I'd expect her to be there, too. Over on Angel that would leave Connor (sorry but I doubt his *son* is all that expendable), Lorne, Gunn, and Gwen (assuming she becomes a regular and sticks around). I'd think that Spike on Angel gives a more interesting dynamic, and also helps mix the casts up, but I can see him and Dawn going off with Buffy at the end of the show (assuming they all make it out alive), and given SMG's comments in that EW article a few weeks back, they would be around to make random appearances as needed. Anya would be gone (since she said she doesn't want to come back), but Andrew can be thrown wherever the writers want, since they seem to love him so much. Giles has his own show, and I can see Cordelia disappearing at the end of this evil Cordy arc, only to return to Angel once Charisma is ready to resume working. Again, if anyone gets axed in the upcoming series finale, all bets are off. This also doesn't include any ideas to add fresh faces into the cast(s). Plus, I can see them throwing people to Angel for a season before pulling them for Willow in a year.



I apologize for being a Buffy/Angel mark.

EddieBurkett 316 says "If you can't see my avatar, please tell me. Thank you.".

Hiring a computer engineer? I doubt it, but I'm looking.
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#10 Posted on

    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Another criticism of Angel is that while hardcore fans like us love the twisty, ongoing storyline, casual viewers who watch once in a while or for the first time will have no idea what the hell is going on.


I had a hard time making myself stay with Angel after they killed Doyle off, to be honest. Of course, I've never liked Cordy and the rest of the supporting cast hasn't ever seemed to impress me all that much. Which is disappointing, because I've loved the stories for the most part, and the villains have been much better than Buffy's latest batch.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 3535 days
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.59
Is that true about Willow on UPN or is it another rumor? I don't expect UPN to be around in 2004 with they way things are going over there. I think Xander or Spike on Angel would be a nice antagionist role for Angel. The history between Xander/Spike and Angel is very murky and could lead to some great scences. Conner's character is trying to be like that, but the character is still to shallow to have that kind of depth. I do think Conner is expandable just for the fact that Spike could do that role much better than him. To bad, Nicholas doesn't want to be on Angel, I figured he would like another shot at doing more Xander/Cordy scenes. Of course, of Charisma is leaving there is no point.

I too felt that Angel lost me whe Doyle died. The character was very cool and brought a ton of energy to the show. I waded through the rest of the season as did the writers apperantly. The Buffy and Faith Crossover helped out tremendously at the end. The second season was cool with Angel going completly overboard evil and Dru was in it, so it wasn't that bad. I gave up on the third season with the pregeancy angle since I saw the conclusion as soon as Darla staked herself. This season has been really great thanks to a good effort by the writers and cast. I am with Nate though when he says the supporting cast is not as good as Buffy's. I do think they are expandable and if the show does get canned I expect that show to have the highest body count of main characters.

A Fan- Hoping UPN or Fox decides to take either Angel or Willow or both,
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 13 hours
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Doyle's death actually contributed to what I think is Angel's greatest strength; the tension. The precedent of Doyle creates the expectation that any character could conceivably be killed at any time (well, except for Angel).

Take last week's Buffy, for example. I never once thought that Spike was in any danger, nor did I even think that Spike would even kill Principal Wood.

This whole arc with the Beast/Angelus/DisCordelia has been incredibly well-done, mostly because on any given episode, somebody could be offed. None of central players have been touched yet, but Lilah is dead and I seriously wonder if Lorne, Gunn or even Connor will survive the season.

And also, depending on how truly evil Cordelia is becoming, she could be the first of the original Buffy cast to be legitimately killed.

(edited by Big Bad on 29.3.03 1434)


"I have no intention of uttering my last words on the stage. Room service and a couple of depraved young women will do me quite nicely for an exit."-- Peter O'Toole

"I'm gonna rip the eyes out of your head, and piss down your dead skull!"
-- Jack Nicholson, in A Few Good Men

Jakegnosis
Morcilla








Since: 26.7.02
From: Maine

Since last post: 2839 days
Last activity: 2823 days
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.91
Willow?

Please, Please, Jesus, no.....



Moo hoo ha ha.

Rangers lead the way
shockdown
Cotechino








Since: 28.12.02

Since last post: 3850 days
Last activity: 3825 days
#14 Posted on
Count me among those who would like any Buffy regulars to stay FAR away from Angel at this point. For me, the Willow episode was just more affirmation that the Buffy cast doesn't fit on Angel (which tends to be a lot more adult and darker in tone than its predecessor. That's not a problem; I actually like having that difference between the shows). The only characters who could realistically fit into that darker tone would be either Spike or Giles, and you can't bring them in, because they'd basically be usurping the roles of Angel & Wesley, respectively. Unless you bring back Spike the Big Bad, and not schmoopy I-Love-Buffy Spike, it doesn't work.

If they're gonna bring anyone to Angel, it needs to be someone on the opposite side of the fence; the heroes gallery (as it were) is fine as is. I've read on tvguide.com that Christian Kane is very interested in coming back, so there's always the option of bringing back Lindsey, or maybe Holland -- assuming that Wolfram & Hart returns in any form after this year -- or Sahjahn, or someone like that.

I quite liked this week's episode ("Turgid supernatural soap opera" -- ha!). Give me back the old, cool, non-whipped, bad-ass Gunn from Season 2, and I'm a happy camper. Pair him up with Gwen Raiden, and I'm even happier (sorry, but I think she's freakin' hot). And keep him - and Wesley -- the hell away from Fred, and get their friendship dynamic back (Sorry, but in my book, Fred's the most annoying & expendable character, and getting rid of her, in any fashion, would be greatley appreciated). If there is a next year, and Charisma Carpenter decides to take time off from acting, a new Angel Investigations, with Angel, Connor, Wesley, Gunn, Gwen, & Lorne -- with a revamped Wolfram & Hart -- would be just fine.

Oh, Re: Doyle -- from everything I've read, the decision to kell him off was a behind the scenes action, as there were apparently problems between Joss Whedon & and Glenn Quinn that caused them to give him the boot. I don't want to say more without being able to provide links to the articles, out of respect to the deceased. I will say that moving Doyle to bring over Wesley wasn't necessarily a bad trade-off, as Alexis Denisof has easily been the best actor on Buffy or Angel over the past 2 years.

(edited by shockdown on 30.3.03 0040)


Power flows to the one who knows how -- desire alone is not enough.

--- Megatron
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 13 hours
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
If Charisma Carpenter is taking a year off, then Gwen would seem to be the natural 'female lead' replacement, sine Fred sure can't handle it.



"I have no intention of uttering my last words on the stage. Room service and a couple of depraved young women will do me quite nicely for an exit."-- Peter O'Toole

"I'm gonna rip the eyes out of your head, and piss down your dead skull!"
-- Jack Nicholson, in A Few Good Men

Excalibur05
Knackwurst








Since: 19.1.02
From: Minnesota

Since last post: 10 days
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#16 Posted on
shockdown

Two points:

1. Bringing back Wolfram and Hart is a bad, bad, bad, bad idea. It really allowed the writers in the early seasons to get really lazy. Just like a Mentos commercial, anytime anything happened, the writers would pull out Wolfram and Hart, say that they did it, and everybody would have a good laugh. It was their deus ex machina for covering up plot holes for the better part of three seasons, and now that they don't have that to fall back on, all the better.

2. Gunn is more expendible than Fred at this point in the show. Even in this last episode the writers admitted that the character is flat, and besides that, I don't think that J. August Richards can carry a scene. He's an awesome background character, but past that...eh...Gunn's a big guy who kills things. So do Conner, Wesley, and Angel. And they're all more interesting.

Fred fills the role of Willow on the show of the smart girl/character always in danger. They need something like that if they're going to be a horror show. It doesn't work if it's a character you don't know that's in peril. It doesn't work anymore with Cordelia, because, besides the fact that she's bad right now, she's shown that she's willing and able to fight for herself now. Besides, Amy Acker is starting to take off as an actress, and it wouldn't make sense to dump her right before her popularity hits its stride.



Satire 03/24/03 (wienerboard.com) <- No kidding, right?
Buffy 7.17 gets a 7.87 So...Spike and Wood have Oedipus complexes...riiiiight...
shockdown
Cotechino








Since: 28.12.02

Since last post: 3850 days
Last activity: 3825 days
#17 Posted on

    Originally posted by Excalibur05
    shockdown

    Two points:

    1. Bringing back Wolfram and Hart is a bad, bad, bad, bad idea. It really allowed the writers in the early seasons to get really lazy. Just like a Mentos commercial, anytime anything happened, the writers would pull out Wolfram and Hart, say that they did it, and everybody would have a good laugh. It was their deus ex machina for covering up plot holes for the better part of three seasons, and now that they don't have that to fall back on, all the better.

    2. Gunn is more expendible than Fred at this point in the show. Even in this last episode the writers admitted that the character is flat, and besides that, I don't think that J. August Richards can carry a scene. He's an awesome background character, but past that...eh...Gunn's a big guy who kills things. So do Conner, Wesley, and Angel. And they're all more interesting.

    Fred fills the role of Willow on the show of the smart girl/character always in danger. They need something like that if they're going to be a horror show. It doesn't work if it's a character you don't know that's in peril. It doesn't work anymore with Cordelia, because, besides the fact that she's bad right now, she's shown that she's willing and able to fight for herself now. Besides, Amy Acker is starting to take off as an actress, and it wouldn't make sense to dump her right before her popularity hits its stride.



I would agree that there were point where W&H was used to cover up plot holes, but I don't think that's the biggest problem with them -- it's that they became largely ineffectual. Throughout all of last season & this season, Wolfram & Hart was a joke, constantly finding themselves behind the 8-Ball during every major plot development (The Beast, Connor's birth, etc.). I don't think there was really any episode where the Linwood/Gavin Park-led Wolfram and Hart was ever a serious threat, and then, just when Lilah takes over (in one of this season's best moments), the Beast comes along and basically slaughters the lot of them. Holland Manners-era W&H was much more effective in getting under Angel's skin and dealing him setbacks. That's why if they bring them back, THAT is the Wolfram and Hart I'd like to see. And let them operate without the previous directive to keep Angel alive; make them go out of their way to kill Angel & Co.

Of course, if I had my way, they'd bring back Holtz before anyone else, since he wasn't restraining himself, and actually was going to kjill Angel, but c'est la vie, and all that.

Concerning Fred: That point about Fred/Willow is valid, but for me personally, that's even more reason to remove her, 'cause I don't really care about Willow that much either, no matter what show she's on. No disrepct to Amy Acker, 'cause I think she's a damn good actress, but I didn't like Fred when she was mumbling, crazy and drawing on cave walls; I definitely don't like her anymore now, since she played a large role in breaking apart the only consistent male friendship (Gunn/Wesley) that we've seen on either show. And while I would agree that J. August Richards has some ways to go in terms of acting, I would also say that the writers haven't done the character of Gunn any favors with the way they've written him over the past two seasons (that junk plot of him selling his soul for that truck, and his statements to Angel that they should let Wesley explain about the Connor incident, only to turn on Wesley an epsiode later are two primary examples).



Power flows to the one who knows how -- desire alone is not enough.

--- Megatron
A Fan
Liverwurst








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 3535 days
Last activity: 3535 days
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.59
Count me in as a Wolfram & Hart hater. I liked the idea of them during the first and the beginning of second season. After Dru and Darla slaughtered them in the second season that should have been the last of them. Unfortuantly, they were easy plot devices like the hellmouth in Sunnydale and something writers didn't want to lose. Since, this might be the last scene killing them off was no big deal since the writers saw bigger things and the end of the road.

I also don't expect the Buffy cast to be joining after hearing this. According to an interview with James Master, Joss has given the actors their part of the last episode, but no one knows what the others are doing and it minor changes are going to be made. I guess the cast is not allowed to discuss their role to the last episode or Joss will change it. James did say that the fans will be pissed about Spike's role which could mean Joss is going to kill him off or Spike goes evil again and kills someone like Dawn.

A Fan- I hated Holtz if there was one guy I could bring back and kill over again its Glory.

Mild Mannered Madman
Toulouse








Since: 1.3.02
From: Westminster, CA

Since last post: 448 days
Last activity: 165 days
#19 Posted on

    Originally posted by A Fan
    James did say that the fans will be pissed about Spike's role which could mean Joss is going to kill him off or Spike goes evil again and kills someone like Dawn.




Killing Dawn is like Foley turning heel on Kevin Sullivan. It might make William the Bloody more popular. =)





I have a special friend. He's the baby Jesus and I love him and...and...he don't give me no s**t and he don't f**k around and he's just the f**king coolest guy and I wanna say I love the baby Jesus.I can't say enough.I love the baby Jesus and I think...he's the best thing and he's really great when he shares his love for everbody.You know what I mean?I can't even see a manger without thinkin' about him,eh?I just love the Jesus.I've only been into him for a couple of hours though,but I'm really into him.
--
Bruce McCulloch
Excalibur05
Knackwurst








Since: 19.1.02
From: Minnesota

Since last post: 10 days
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#20 Posted on
Boy...this season really just took a HUGE downswing for me tonight.

The exposition time with Skip was what it was. Anytime you say "The Last Three Seasons Were All Background for THIS Season", you're setting yourself up for some scrutinization. And you should probably deliver more than the prostitute from Firefly

Nice to see some bonding between Angel and Wesley, though. And nice to see everybody finally NOT being clueless putzes and finally figuring some things out on their own for once. Could have been better done than a "Sherlock Holmes Presents: Angel Investigations puts 2 and 2 together and makes 4" though, with the video package of evil Cordelia and monologueing.

Oh, and Wesley suddenly going all The Matrix was...uh...yeah. Just, say no to suddenly becoming Max Payne, Wes.

NEXT WEEK: Fred plays Xander AND Spike when she tries to figure out why the girl is so popular with all the people of LA. Check her letter jacket, Fred!



Satire 03/31/03 (wienerboard.com) <- No kidding, right?
Buffy 7.17 gets a 7.87 So...Spike and Wood have Oedipus complexes...riiiiight...
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Chaos Marines are frickin' impossible to paint, so I wouldn't recommend that for a first-timer. I'd suggest Imperial Guard, as they're easy to decorate at first but can also be modified and played around with once you get used to it.
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