* Amy Acker really impressed me this episode. Ilyria is such an entirely different character from Fred that I forgot that it was even the same actress.
* I find it hard to believe that Giles would just immediately shut out Angel's call just because of the W&H connection. Given their history together, you'd think that Buffy would already be in LA if she thought that Angel had gone evil, so she could a) see for herself or b) take him down herself.
* Wesley and Gunn = PATHOS! I love it! The cool thing is that it's an inversion of last season when Gunn wouldn't forgive Wes for kidnapping Connor (though I guess they wouldn't remember that thanks to Angel's Connor-eliminating spell). Also, Gunn can name all three Flashes -- well, I'm a comic nerd, so I liked it.
* The fight scenes were really well done. Yay slow motion!
* If Ilyria becomes "one of the gang" now, I'm going to be pretty pissed off. I have a feeling that this might be Wesley's latest secret from the group (i.e. kidnapping Connor, affair with Lilah) and like the others, it won't end well.
Wait…if it’s MLK Jr. Day AND Pat Patterson’s Birthday…who gets the token win here?-- Matt "Excalibur05" Hocking on a match between Mark Henry and Rico
MH: What’s a clever way to say that I have a penis? CJ: Uh…Mark, nobody’s going to buy that shirt. MH: How about if I say that I’ve got…a…uh…? CJ: Coming up with T-Shirt ideas is hard Mark, why not leave it to the WWE marketing department. MH: I know! I’ve got it! CJ: Got what? MH: Stank! That’s Mah Stank! I’m gonna make a fortune!! CJ: “That’s Mah Stank”? MH: On the front it’ll say “Can You Smell It?” and on the back it’ll say “That’s Mah Stank”. Everybody’ll buy it because they’ll think it’s a Rock shirt. CJ: You know…you might be on to something there, sad to say. MH: I can’t wait to show mah stank to Trish.
You know, I have a feeling that Spanky didn’t quit, he was fired. Why? So they could repackage Mark Henry as “Stanky.” Think about THAT! --Matt "Excalibur05" Hocking, 1/19/04 Raw Satire
Good idea about this being Wesley's next secret. Especially with his stabbing of Gunn for his betrayal (does Wes remember getting his throat slit?), this could lead to big bad things down the road.
Looks like I was wrong about Gunn turning evil. Seems Wes might go in his place, though.
I love how Wesley immediately went for the axe to the head. Shades of Lilah from last season. Again, there's all these little similarities to what's already happened. These CAN'T be coincidental. Angel admitted that they never should have joined Wolfram and Hart. Now things are getting interesting.
Isn't it about this time every season that someone gives the "things are going to get pretty crazy around here as we wait for the big fight in May" speech? Its the Jossverse equivalent of starting the Road to Wrestlemania.
Was the whole point of the Ilyaria plot to turn Fred into Seven of Nine? Basically, now we have a whole different female for the group to fawn over even though its the same actress. Although I guess after the way Fred was more or less passed around. (I think the only person they never teased her having a relationship with was Lorne), the change may have been neccessary.
That ending with the music felt more like an ep of Buffy than Angel.
I liked how the two parter started with Fred packing her things and ended with Wesley packing Fred's things.
Was I the only one getting Anya vibes from Harmony through the torture sequence? Maybe it was her hair.
I like that Spike finally admitted that he wants to stick around. Took him long enough.
Of all the Scoobies, it makes sense that Giles (and I suppose Xander) would shut down Angel, especially knowing that he's working with Wolfram and Hart. Other than Buffy, Giles is the one who dealt most personally with Angelus, and it doesn't surprise me that he's keeping the Council at arms length from an evil-aligned Angel. (Even if he's not evil himself). Buffy may not even know Angel called. Last we heard she was in Rome, and judging by last season, I wouldn't put it past Giles to not give Buffy the message that Angel called. I can see though how this would lay the groundwork for some Buffy cast member appearances NEXT season...
I still don't understand why they traded Ilyaria for Fred, but I guess we'll see where this goes. I'm certainly a little disappointed that there's no clear cut villain for the season now. (But I'm sure that will change soon enough). I liked how Ilyaria mentioned that she knew the Wolf, Ram, and Hart when they were younger. Angel's going to clash with the senior partners. Its a shame Joss will have to rush the build this season.
Yeah, angles in the ring... someone thought of that a long time ago. They called it pro wrestling." -- the MCS
Eh. It was an interesting twist to the Ilyaria story to make here a sort of tweener at this juncture. I'm still not a fan of the story, but a twist's a twist, I suppose.
It was weird how they basically winked and nudged how they kind of recycled the Cordelia stuff for this season.
My two biggest laughs in the episode were Spike's dealing with grief on the plane by talking about Angel's little bottles of booze (and the riff on how they're like big bottles but from REALLY far away), it's an old joke, but it was a cute one. The other was Angle's "Were you even listening?" when Wes shot Knox during Angel's little "mission statement" speach. I did also enjoy Wes' exposition that he's the last one that should be teaching anybody lessons on morality.
I was struck by how much Amy Acker in Big Bad gear looked like Alyson Hannigan in Big Bad gear from Buffy Season 6. The only difference was that one is black and one is blue.
I did NOT like Lorne slinking off to go drink instead of helping out. I understand that they're having trouble working him into the dark speachification now that there's no babies to coo over or evil hotel karoke contests to judge, but it just seemed like a lame way to jerk him out of the episode (which is something they're usually very good at with Lorne). I love the character, but he's always been a kind of third wheel to the show. He adds some emotion, but not nearly as strongly as Cordelia and Fred did.
I dunno. It was a kind of neat episode, but I'm still not buying any of this.
Originally posted by Big Bad* I find it hard to believe that Giles would just immediately shut out Angel's call just because of the W&H connection. Given their history together, you'd think that Buffy would already be in LA if she thought that Angel had gone evil, so she could a) see for herself or b) take him down herself.
Two words. Jenny Calendar. Giles hates Angel. If he knows Spike's there, it just adds to the hate more.
Originally posted by Big Bad* Also, Gunn can name all three Flashes -- well, I'm a comic nerd, so I liked it.
Not only that, but Gunn's got love for the silver age by dropping Barry Allen's name first.
There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
I'm curious as to how Giles knows so much about Wolfram and Hart. I have never heard a reference to Wolfram and Hart on "Buffy" (though as someone who has only been watching "Angel" for around a year or so I might have missed something on an episode I haven't seen yet).
I would also think that Spike would at least have a free pass from Giles, given that he gave himself up to save the world and all.
I thought that this was a good episode, but I can't say that I particularly enjoy the fact that Fred is gone. At the same time, I'm not going to miss any new episodes so the writing team has done at least part of its ultimate job.
Originally posted by RudoublesedoublelI'm curious as to how Giles knows so much about Wolfram and Hart. I have never heard a reference to Wolfram and Hart on "Buffy" (though as someone who has only been watching "Angel" for around a year or so I might have missed something on an episode I haven't seen yet).
Well, Giles does tend to be very knowledgable about things, even if he doesn't explicitly mention something at any given point during seven years. Plus, although it wasn't terribly frequently referenced on camera, I think the AI and Scoobs had some form of regular communication prior to the destruction of Sunnydale/Angel joining W&H. We've seen Cordelia and Fred both place calls to Sunnydale, and in the Chaos Bleeds video game Giles references a phone call with Wesley. Just because Angel and Buffy decided to not share their lives didn't mean that everyone else had to cut contact altogether. It would make sense that during those phone calls to talk shop, some information about that law firm and how annoying they are would be passed around.
I think at best, Giles tolerated Angel for Buffy's sake (and because it was convenient when going up against the mayor). Madman is right on the money about this. Its all about Jenny Calendar.
(edited by EddieBurkett on 6.3.04 0034) Yeah, angles in the ring... someone thought of that a long time ago. They called it pro wrestling." -- the MCS
marcusb ... awesome first post. Couple of comments ... I actually like the idea of diaries versus a cable box. When someone is filling out a diary they are filling in what TV shows stick in their heads that they watched (or intended to watch)