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The W - Random - Angel 19 November
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Smackfiend
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Since: 11.11.02

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.08
This ending of this episode made me very happy. I was expecting to get tired of the Angel/Spike in-fighting very quickly, but it was surprisingly entertaining the whole time (for me). One question though, I've only seen the Season 1 & 2 DVDs, and I've been watching this season (i.e. nothing from season 3 or 4), could someone explain the deal with the White Room and the Big Cat to me please? Thanks.
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.16
    Originally posted by Smackfiend
    could someone explain the deal with the White Room and the Big Cat to me please? Thanks.


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Since: 11.11.02
From: Fat City, Baby

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.51
Spoilers...obviously....


Man, what a great episode. I'm glad to see Spike finally go over Angel after decades of jobbing. Bad wrestling references aside, I loved that he won because he wanted it more, that he just had more vim and attitude about everything.

To my way of thinking, if they have to choose one vampire over another to "get" the prophecy, I think that vamp has to be Angel, for a couple of reasons. One, it's his series. Two, as they alluded in this episode, he's weary; he doesn't enjoy the fight anymore. So it's better for him to become mortal one day, and one day die, because Spike still likes being what he is. Spike basically seems to dig immortality and ass-kicking, and does so with a lot more gusto. I mean, the guy loves smoking, drinking and hot wings. Angel could enjoy all those things, too, but he just doesn't.

Anyway, neat to see Lindsey back. And some of the dialogue in this episode was outstanding. Spike baiting Angel over the cell phone during their drive was a particular standout. The line about Angel "getting to play the Signifying Monkey" was hilarious.



The Obtuse Angle Archive.

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EddieBurkett
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Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.35
Damn Lindsay. I was so surprised by his appearance, that I had to check if that was indeed him and forgot about South Park being on.

The opening with Spike becoming corporeal again was weak. I know it sets up a big mystery of who is behind it all, but it seems cheap for them to keep using the mail to enact major changes with respect to Spike as though it is some sort of deus ex machina. Episode 4 (Hellbound) had Spike's current state as a major plot point, and I liked that Spike sacrificed his own ability to live (un-live?) to save Fred. That sacrifice (and Fred's prior efforts) seem pointless now that some silly box was able to rectify everything.

I'm glad they paid off on the 'who is behind all this issue?' (or at least offered up another player on the villain side.) This episode had way too much of a feeling that the boys were getting set up, that I kept expecting someone to pull the rug out from under them while they were fighting over the cup. Given the flashbacks, I was hoping Drucilla would have a role to play, but Lindsay is a damn fine (surprising!) twist. Somehow, he and Eve make a logical couple.

Nice swerve with Eve. Playing the whole sympathy card with Fred and Gunn (and heck, fooling me) only to run home to her evil boyfriend.

As far as which of the vampires is truly the one, it has to be Angel. Spike may want it more, but you can't want to be a hero more. Spike doesn't want the actual responsibility, he wants the reward and the attention (and the fact that he can take it from Angel) more than he wants to actually endure saving the world. By Angel becoming willing to forego the reward (all he's ever been interested in with respect to the Shanshu prophesy was becoming human), he'll save the world because he legimately wants to, and as such earn his reward. His lack of desire will make him more pure.

I'm surprised the fact that Angelus had Drucilla never came up during the latter part of Buffy season 2. Given the importance of the love-triangle nature of their relationship at the time, and how it was relevant to the season, I would think Spike would have had that flashback back then. Oh well. Minor point.

It figures they would make this big revelation right before the Thanksgiving hiatus. I have to find out when the next new episode is.

Edit:

To answer the question about the White Room and the Big Cat, the White Room is the place where the Senior Partners manifest themselves to communicate with the Law Firm. They appear as a Big Black Cat and so far have only directly communicated with Gunn.

Also, I forgot to mention that I loved that Spike's first reaction to becoming tangible was to go bang Harmony. And it was awesome that she tried to resist, but he won her over with a smile...

(edited by EddieBurkett on 20.11.03 0940)


If you're reading this, the tide was in.
Keeper
Italian
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Since: 1.3.02
From: Worcester, MA

Since last post: 366 days
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.39
I have a question. Watching the flashbacks, it seemed to me that they inferred (or maybe came out and said it, I can't remember) that Drucilla sired (sp?) Spike. Now I am pretty sure that in the Buffy story line from season 2, that it came out that Angel sired Spike. I think it was in the episode where Spike, Drucilla, and some vamps invaded the High School during a Parent/Teacher/Student party.

Unfortunately I didn't tape the show, and I lent my Buffy DVD's out to my brother, so I can't go check on this. Did they change the story/lineage, or did I just miss something?

The show itself was pretty good, and I liked that they brought Lindsay back.



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EddieBurkett
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Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.35
In Buffy season 2 episode 3, the parent/teacher night episode, when Angel and Spike first meet each other on screen, Spike does indeed call Angel his sire.

Later on, in Buffy season 5, they do an episode where they explain Spike's past and it is revealed that Drucilla did indeed sire him. (Drucilla herself being sired by Angel.)

Apparently, canon states that Drucilla is Spike's sire, but the term can reply back to any ancestral vampire, thus Spike acknowledged that Angel was his *grandfather* by calling him sire.



If you're reading this, the tide was in.
Mild Mannered Madman
Toulouse








Since: 1.3.02
From: Westminster, CA

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.48
    Originally posted by Keeper
    I have a question. Watching the flashbacks, it seemed to me that they inferred (or maybe came out and said it, I can't remember) that Drucilla sired (sp?) Spike. Now I am pretty sure that in the Buffy story line from season 2, that it came out that Angel sired Spike. I think it was in the episode where Spike, Drucilla, and some vamps invaded the High School during a Parent/Teacher/Student party.

    Unfortunately I didn't tape the show, and I lent my Buffy DVD's out to my brother, so I can't go check on this. Did they change the story/lineage, or did I just miss something?

    The show itself was pretty good, and I liked that they brought Lindsay back.


Angelus is Spike's grand-sire. He sired Drucilla, who sired Spike.



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Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
I wonder if Lindsey knows that Angel and Eve got it on a few episodes ago.



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Quezzy
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Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.90
Yes! This episode rocked. Of course I'm a total mark for both Spike, Drusilla, and Lindsey so it have everything I wanted. I was shocked by the Eve being a baddie also, but when she started to someone I was thinking that it was going to be Lindsey right away. And thank goodness it was, as much as I love Angel the show has been lacking a good villian since Lindsey and Darla left. I mean Holtz, Connor, Lila and that god chick just didn't cut it.

I also liked that Spike got the cup first, even though I know ultimately it has to be Angel it's good to see Spike go over this one time.

Only negative was no Wesley, i've really grown to like him ever since he turned evil.


By the way, does anybody besides me instinctively type Angle every time they are trying to time Angel?



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
Barbwire Mike
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Since: 6.11.03
From: Dudleyville

Since last post: 3277 days
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#10 Posted on
First off, GREAT episode. Had friends that were worried a few weeks back because things were starting so slow and disjointed. HELLO! Welcome to EVERY SEASON of both Buffy and Angel. The last three weeks, of course, have dispelled most of those worries.

My response to coming in this thread, though (we don't get Angel until Thursday here, so pardon my tardiness) and seeing the "it can't be Spike" sentiment is "why NOT Spike"? That whole fight sequence brought similar emotions to the Flair Survivor Series match when it was on live: pulling for my very favorite heel in the world against insane odds. So dramatic I actually yelled "YES... NOW DRINK THE DAMN CUP SPIKE" when Angel first got knocked off the balcony. Then I immediately got pissed that it's been a good three years since I'd reacted to a wrestling match with that much enthusiasm.

Really, it SHOULD be Spike. I mean, the whole "can save or destroy creation" prophecy all but denies Angel the spot. Spike gets the power, becomes the "one" and winds up as this season's Big Bad. Hell, thanks to the Willow loophole he can still be back next season.

Joss rules all.



Lethalwrestling.com: If you don't read us, you're probably gay.
EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc








Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.34
    Originally posted by Barbwire Mike
    Really, it SHOULD be Spike. I mean, the whole "can save or destroy creation" prophecy all but denies Angel the spot. Spike gets the power, becomes the "one" and winds up as this season's Big Bad.


Actually, I think the good/bad variable puts the ball more firmly in Angel's court, since his soul is connected to him more tenuously. And even at that, ever since Spike got his soul, he's been rather well-behaved (except for when the First was brainwashing him, but that's not his fault). Angel, on the other hand, continued for a good two years trying to pretend he didn't have a soul, and later went on to engage in some questionable behaviour during season 2, when he locked the Wolfram & Hart executives in Holland's basement with Darla & Drucilla, fired everyone at Angel Investigations, and stopped caring, all while souled.

As this fight showed, when Spike gets upset, he gets tough. When Angel gets upset, however, he gets apathetic, and that's much more conducive to evil.

Besides, they weren't fighting over obtaining power, per se. They were fighting over proving that the prophecy, and thus the reward of becoming human, belonged to them. Even if the prophecy was true about drinking from the cup, Spike would be no more powerful for it. He and Angel would both still be champions, the difference would be that Spike would be known to play a major role at armageddon.

And I agree with you about being more into the fights on Angel than into any wrestling matches of late. I still consider Angel v. Faith from March a MOTYC.



If you're reading this, the tide was in.
Barbwire Mike
Boudin rouge








Since: 6.11.03
From: Dudleyville

Since last post: 3277 days
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#12 Posted on
Look at it like a well-booked wrestling angle (aaah, those were the days). We just saw Angelus last season. Spike, on the other hand, has been slowly turning face for the last four years. THAT'S the heel turn you go with.

The groundwork was even laid tonight. There were several instances but the stand-out one was him saying what Angel hated most about him was that he was the one who made Spike into a monster.

Point the other way of course is the intensely vain closing line, where you could see Angel go all whiny and get led to the darkside by Eve and Lindsay if he isn't "the one".



Lethalwrestling.com: If you don't read us, you're probably gay.
EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc








Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.34
Slowly turning face the last four years??? I would say they turned Spike face the moment he realized he could beat up on demons with the chip in his head, as that gave him a reason to help the Scoobies without making him *good*. And if that wasn't when they turned him face, he was definitely full fledged face at the start of season 7 when he got his soul back for Buffy. (Especially when he was crazy at the beginning of the season, he was so tortured he HAD to be a face!) They twisted it a little with the First's mindgames, but Spike's face turn was not on the slow-burn track.

That's not to say they wouldn't turn Spike again at some point. It would seem that the world won't be right again so long as there are two souled vampires, which means that either one of them has to die or one of them has to lose their soul. Given that the show is called Angel, I'd put my money on one of those two things happening to Spike.



If you're reading this, the tide was in.
Rudoublesedoublel
Potato korv








Since: 2.1.02
From: Kentucky - Home of the 8 time NCAA Champ Wildcats

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.76
It just so happened that Sunday night my wife and I were watching a rerun of Angel from the first season. The episode where Angel became human for a day, but decided to not be human because he wanted to "fight the good fight".

My wife immediately said (while watching this new episode) "I thought he didn't want to be human". She had a good point, IMO (granted, we haven't seen much of the Angel series, a few of last year's episodes and all episodes this season).

I think that Spike probably should be "the one". As Spike said, Angel is souled because of a curse, Spike fought for his.

I'm assuming the lack of previews means that next week will be a rerun. When will new episodes re-appear?
Barbwire Mike
Boudin rouge








Since: 6.11.03
From: Dudleyville

Since last post: 3277 days
Last activity: 3269 days
#15 Posted on
    Originally posted by EddieBurkett
    Slowly turning face the last four years??? I would say they turned Spike face the moment he realized he could beat up on demons with the chip in his head, as that gave him a reason to help the Scoobies without making him *good*.
I was just using the easiest of equations. We're in season five of Angel, and in season one he appeared in TOTAL heel mode (along with the baby-eating Marcus) trying to slaughter Angel. So it's somewhere between four to five years anyway.



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oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.22
You know, all this talk of SPike and Angel and Lindsey is all well and good...but what was LORNE DOING?

Sorry. I'm a relative Angel newbie and I'm working my way through the DVD sets bit-by-bit. As you can guess, I'm a massive mark for Lorne.



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XPacArmy
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Since: 13.5.03
From: Woodbridge, VA

Since last post: 329 days
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.95
    Originally posted by Rudoublesedoublel
    I'm assuming the lack of previews means that next week will be a rerun. When will new episodes re-appear?


According to Yahoo!, there is no Angel next week(11/26) because WB will be running the movie "Josie and the Pussycats".

And the following Wednesday(12/03), Angel will rerun Episode #501 from October 1, 2003:

Conviction"
The challenges of running a supernatural law firm become apparent when Angel and the gang must represent an evil client (Rod Rowland) who threatens to destroy the city.

And that is as far as Yahoo! goes at this point.



It's like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!
J. Kyle
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Since: 21.2.02
From: The Land of Aloha

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Y!:
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
X-E's co-Worst Poster of all time! JKyle.com says:

"It's Mountain Dew." Best. Line. Ever.

Spike won! Spike won! BY GAWD SPIKE WON!

Lindsay's evil hand seems to be large and in charge now.

BTW, rumor has it Andrew and a slayer or two are on the way.

Things are looking up.

(P.S. Danny Strong is playing an editor of Yale's student newspaper on Gilmore Girls. Go watch him!)



Cast in the Name of God
Ye Not Guilty

(I SWEAR THAT FLCL PICTURE'S LINK WORKS NOW!)
This link works now
Quezzy
Knackwurst








Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.90
They're bringing Andrew to Angel? Yes! Spike, Angel, Lorne, Lindsey and Andrew. If they just had Faith it'd be like my Buffy/Angel dream team. (Anya too, but she's dead.) I'm not too excited about any of the slayers though (except Faith, but we know she's tied up with her own show.) I guess I wouldn't mind a Xander or Willow appearance though. Any word on when this season they are going to resolve the Cordelia thing?

And Danny Strong has been pretty good on Gilmore Girls. Although Gilmore Girls and Angel aren't exactly similar shows so I'm not sure how many Angel fans would like it. But I enjoy them both so it's possible.



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1964 days
Last activity: 1898 days
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.22
Deaths both real and fake (Glenn Quinn's OD and Anya's end in Buffy) prevent the birth of a TRUE Buffy/Angel dream-team. And from what I hear Charisma Carpenter is back for a one-shot deal in the hundredth episode-although whether that'll resolve ANYTHING is another issue.



Now THAT Is A Woman

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