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The W - Current Events & Politics - American Protestor killed by Israelis (Page 2)
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Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 202 days
Last activity: 1 day
#21 Posted on
I agree with the assessment of the Wall Street Journal--the protestor died regretably and lived regretably.

Also, this article only looks at one side of the story. I believe this is the same side that talked about a massacre of 500+ people in Jenin. The U.N. (hardly the most fervent supporter of Israel) investigation found no evidence of any type of massacre and found that most of the fatalities were combatants. And, there was also no solid evidence that the noncombatant fatalities were the result of Israeli action.
Leroy
Andouille








Since: 7.2.02
From: Huntington, NY

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 4 min.
#22 Posted on

To counter-balance the Wall Streeat Journal...

Still photos of th incident - and yes, they are fairly graphic:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

It's pretty clear from the photos that the driver simply plowed her over. And at the very least, she was not posing any threat to the driver's safety...

And a think Corajudo's judgement of the UN investigation regarding Jenin is a bit off base... here is a link to the UN report.

http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/



"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1086 days
Last activity: 883 days
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
After looking over these photos, I have come to the conclusion that....


....she'd still be alive if she wasn't over there defending the rights of terrorists. Regardless of whose side you believe(accident or peaceful well marked protest) this is the kind of shit you know could happen to you when you take stupid risks.



There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.
- Theodore Roosevelt, Ocotber 12, 1915
Michrome
Head cheese








Since: 2.1.03

Since last post: 3649 days
Last activity: 2716 days
#24 Posted on
When the so called Jenin "massacre" happened, CNN and all of the other news agency treated it as if a new Holocaust had happened. When it turned out that this wasn't true at all, they didn't even have the decency to apologize, they just dropped the story altogether.
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

Since last post: 1132 days
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Y!:
#25 Posted on
See- ug

First, it sucks she died. But I don't feel bad for her- she dies willingly for a cause. To say now that she did not think death was a possibility kind of takes away from her protest, does it not?

That being said, I have no sympathy for people like this who act as human shields for terrorists. I mean seriously- What EXACTLY do they expect to be done? Their house bulldozing has proven to be effective. So families lose their homes, and as a result, more people live. How is this a bad tradeoff?

And my question is, why aren't they acting as shields against the civilians that are the victims of terror? Oh yeah, because the terrorist would kill them without a thought. At least in this case, the girl had more than enough time to run away. Hell, I am sure she could have bolted at the last second, and been totally fine. Terrorists just blow you up.

How people can stand up in total support of the bad guys is so beyond me...




Chico Santana
Boudin rouge








Since: 2.7.02
From: Jaaaaamacia Mon, No Problem.

Since last post: 3871 days
Last activity: 3869 days
#26 Posted on
Should there be a Palestine be it's own state? Hell yes.

Should people stand in front a bulldozer that weighs a shit load of tons? Hell no. She got what she deserved!

There are things you just don't do, how does the driver know if he stops she won't run to the side, jump on and shank him in the gut. I'm sorry but in America protest are not violent for the most part. But between Israel and the Palestinians shit always happens and it takes two to tango.

I was raised catholic but if the Pope wanted to protest on I-90 during rush hour and got ran over it would be his own fault.

P.s. to MoeGates, America has been selling wepons to everybody, and by saying America it includes people with right-wing, left-wing, independent, etc. veiws. The region would still be a clusterfuck even if we stayed out of it.



"SAL BANDINI, WANNA WRESTLE?"
The Masked Hungarian
Pickled pork








Since: 23.1.02
From: Staten Island NY USA

Since last post: 3206 days
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#27 Posted on
I apologize beforehand for not knowing exact dates

Didn't Israel agree to a plan that would recognize a Palestian state a couple of years ago? Didn't Arafat reject that plan, only to change his mind when it was off the table months (year?) later? Isn't the PLO demanding all of Jerusalem?

Israel tried the doves running their government and received suicide bomber after bomber. Is it any wonder now that Sharon runs the show?
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 202 days
Last activity: 1 day
#28 Posted on

    Originally posted by Leroy


    And a think Corajudo's judgement of the UN investigation regarding Jenin is a bit off base... here is a link to the UN report.


    http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/




If you read that report, you will find that it says that, as a result of the incursion into Jenin, 23 Israeli soldiers and 52 Palestinians died. Of the Palestinians, the Israeli government said that 14 were civilian (and 38 were armed) while Human Rights Watch said that 20 were civilians and the remaining 32 were armed. First off, many of the buildings were booby-trapped, so it is very possible that some of the deaths resulted from the booby-traps (again, according to the report). I would argue that these deaths were the result of Palestinian actions and should not be attributed to the Israeli army. Regardless, this was widely called the 'Jenin Massacre' and referred to as a holocaust immediately after the incursion. Obviously, these data point to less than a holocaust or a massacre, especially considering the civilian fatalities caused by the Palestinian actions. And, once again, this is a report from the U.N., which has proven to be extremely anti-Israel and anti-Semitic throughout its history. I think Golda Meir expressed things very eloquently and starkly--'We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. [But] We cannot ever forgive them for forcing us to kill their children.'
kazhayashi81
Potato korv








Since: 17.6.02
From: Buenos Aires, Argentina

Since last post: 2519 days
Last activity: 2469 days
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#29 Posted on


There's pictures of her showing Palestinian children how to burn an American flag, using a drawn one as an example. What a nice role model for us all to follow.

(edited by kazhayashi81 on 18.3.03 1800)

(edited by kazhayashi81 on 18.3.03 1859)



"You know, frankly, going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion. You just leave a lot of useless noisy baggage behind."- Jed Babbin
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 17 hours
Last activity: 11 hours
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Does anybody feel perhaps since she was on the Palestinian side of this Isreali/Palestinian confrentation that perhaps she was anti semitic?

You would actually be surprised at the amount of American Jewish kids that go do this stuff.

Not at all. The anti-Semitic card is played out way too often to try to discredit anyone who does not kiss Israel's ass.

While this is true, it's also true that those who "do not kiss Israel's ass" often do kiss the ass of countries with far, far worse human rights records. I have a tough time understanding why without factoring anti-Semitism into the explanation.

My mom was there 15 years ago, the last time Sharon was in power, and this was their policy: If you are a Palestinian who attacks Israel (from throwing rocks, to suicide bombing) we will either capture or kill you. Then we will go and bulldoze your family's home.

Sharon was not in power in 1988. In 1983, Sharon was kicked out of the Likud leadership because of his actions in Lebanon. In 1988 the Israeli government was a Labor/Likud coalition under the alternating Prime Ministership of Yitzhack Shamir and Shimon Peres. Sharon was not in the cabinet.

as for blaming Israel as a whole, and not blaming the soldiers? From my point of view, any sympathy that I had for Israel went out the window once they put Ariel Sharon back in power.

I hope your sympathy for this country went out the window with our election of W (and Reagan for that matter). I'm assuming you hold this country collectively responsible for the Mai Lai massacre, or other military and foreign policy abuses.

I'm as upset as you that re-elected Sharon. But it's very easy to sit here safe at home and be upset. If I were in a country where we tried the good guy, and my neighbors ended up scattered in 47 parts across the street every week, and then we tried the bad guy and it stopped happening, I might be tempted to give the bad guy another shot also.

(edited by MoeGates on 18.3.03 2042)


It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Boston, and a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2647 days
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
    Originally Posted by MoeGates
    I hope your sympathy for this country went out the window with our election of W (and Reagan for that matter). I'm assuming you hold this country collectively responsible for the Mai Lai massacre, or other military and foreign policy abuses.


Because every American foreign policy blunder can be traced to Reagan or W, or some other wing of the Republican party. Certainly the GOP can claim no foreign policy heroes like LBJ and Bill Clinton, he of the well-timed "Desert Fox."

And hey, if Sharon is keeping his people alive, isn't he, by definition, not the "bad guy?" Isn't it the purpose of a leader to protect his people?

edit: Also, Kaz, you can insert a carriage return between your pictures by using a break or a paragraph tag between your image tags. They look like this:

edit again: I was going to type them here, but my use of the XMP tag has backfired. Damn.

(edited by PalpatineW on 18.3.03 2057)


"... I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass..."

Pedro Martinez
Karlos the Jackal
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: The City of Subdued Excitement

Since last post: 80 days
Last activity: 6 hours
#32 Posted on
Regardless of how her feel about her political views, she was trying to do good things. She was trying to bring more peace to the world, woefully misguided though she might have been.

The fact that some people here are saying that she deserved to die is absolutely sickening.

--K
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2647 days
Last activity: 2489 days
AIM:  
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by Karlos the Jackal
    Regardless of how her feel about her political views, she was trying to do good things. She was trying to bring more peace to the world, woefully misguided though she might have been.

    The fact that some people here are saying that she deserved to die is absolutely sickening.

    --K



Now, I don't think she deserved to die, per se, but that's a mighty odd definition of peace we all seem to be working with. The Israelis generally bulldoze the homes of terrorists, and in this case I believe they were trying to get to some tunnels where explosives were being stored. Explosives that are going to be used to blow up more Israeli babies. Protecting terrorists is not peace. The absence of war is not neccessarily peace.



"... I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass..."

Pedro Martinez
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 202 days
Last activity: 1 day
#34 Posted on

    Originally posted by Karlos the Jackal
    Regardless of how her feel about her political views, she was trying to do good things. She was trying to bring more peace to the world, woefully misguided though she might have been.

    The fact that some people here are saying that she deserved to die is absolutely sickening.

    --K



I don't see anyone saying she deserved to die. There were a lot of posts along the lines of 'she should have known the risks...' or 'she was an idiot' but nothing saying that she deserved death.

Also, you seem to be saying that the ends justify the means. If her actions are misguided but her intentions are good, then is she blameless or does she share some of the blame? In this situation, there is more than enough blame to go around and I don't think it's insensitive to acknowledge that she did play a part in her own death and does hold some responsibility. Similarly, the bulldozer driver and any fellow soldiers present hold some responsibility as well. Like I said, it was regretable that she died, but the cause she was fighting for, which was NOT peace, is also regretable.
Karlos the Jackal
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: The City of Subdued Excitement

Since last post: 80 days
Last activity: 6 hours
#35 Posted on

    Originally posted by Corajudo

      Originally posted by Karlos the Jackal
      Regardless of how her feel about her political views, she was trying to do good things. She was trying to bring more peace to the world, woefully misguided though she might have been.

      The fact that some people here are saying that she deserved to die is absolutely sickening.

      --K



    I don't see anyone saying she deserved to die.



She got what she deserved! --Chico Santana
Maybe I'm insensitive, but I really don't feel like anything was wrong about this. --spf2119
I see nothing wrong with what happened. --Michrome

And Corajudo, I don't have much of a problem with your second paragraph -- but, yeah, I do think there's a difference between "taking some of the blame" and "deserving what sho got."

Also, yeah, I might give a lot of leeway for young idealist naivete, which, if she's from Olympia, I'm sure she had in spades.

--K
Chico Santana
Boudin rouge








Since: 2.7.02
From: Jaaaaamacia Mon, No Problem.

Since last post: 3871 days
Last activity: 3869 days
#36 Posted on
Karlos the Jackal you can take a line from anyones post to back your own veiw, but when you take it and disregard the rest you are not taking into veiw my hole point. I defend what I said, I believe there is a way to protest and a way not to, and in far off lands things go on different from my own back yard. If you step in the middle of a conflict you should know the risk, do I feel bad she died? Yes. Sometimes no matter how proud you are, or how much you believe your right you should back down and live to fight another day.



"SAL BANDINI, WANNA WRESTLE?"
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1246 days
Last activity: 154 days
#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Don't be ridiculous. Of course there is something wrong with what happened. You get a couple soldiers to drag her out of there and proceed. This is what always happens. Annoying? Yes. But the difference between the Israelis and, say, every other country in the area, is that Israel is a civilized, democratic country that does things like go that extra mile to try and not kill civilians that bother them. This is why idealistic Europeans and Americans go (at least up until now) to Israel to do this stuff instead of, say, the Sudan. Remember when Iraq took it's OWN human shields and tried to put them in front of oil refineries?

    That driver should be court marshaled and punished. Of course, when that happens it won't be front page news. Nor is abuses by the military front page news in any country except Israel. With any other country, a soldier screwed up.



Exactly. But we certainly can't let up on the Israel ass-kissing.



-- Asteroid Boy


Wiener of the day: 23.7.02

"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex
"Was he no-selling?" - Me
Jakegnosis
Morcilla








Since: 26.7.02
From: Maine

Since last post: 2678 days
Last activity: 2662 days
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.91

    Originally posted by spf2119
    No, I don't see anything wrong with this, because this was taking place as part of a military action by Israel, which this woman was attempting to stop by her actions. If this were some random bulldozer driver who ran over some random woman, it would be a different story, so I don't feel the analogy to what would happen in a US court of law is valid. Otherwise every soldier who kills anyone in the coming Iraq conflict should be charged with murder, which I doubt many people would want to see happening. However, this woman was attempting to stop them from taking an action which they believed would help them to not have so many of their people randomly slaughtered. In a purely militaristic view this woman was aiding the enemy by attempting to stop the Israeli military from carrying out their duty. One can argue with the tactics that Israel is using (and I have many times), but in this one instance I do not have a problem with this action in the circumstances it occured in. At some point one has to go down to the level your enemy is fighting at, and if that offends the sensibilities of people, that is a shame. And if the human shields are finding that their idealism is being met with a lack of civilized response, then they need to reexamine their choices of vacation spots. Yes the issue COULD have been dealt with in less destructive ways, but in a purely militaristic and utilitarian sense, what obligation did they have to do anything but what they did?


You obviously don't know a thing about the Code of Military Justice. If a US soldier ran over an unarmed civilian, he would be court-marshalled and spend quite a stretch in military prison. You can't fucking kill people because they are in your way.

I personally think Israel is a reprehensible country whose soldiers act like savages, but I don't think that's really worth getting into.



Moo hoo ha ha.

Rangers lead the way
Leroy
Andouille








Since: 7.2.02
From: Huntington, NY

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 4 min.
#39 Posted on

    Originally posted by Jakegnosis
    You obviously don't know a thing about the Code of Military Justice. If a US soldier ran over an unarmed civilian, he would be court-marshalled and spend quite a stretch in military prison. You can't fucking kill people because they are in your way.

    I personally think Israel is a reprehensible country whose soldiers act like savages, but I don't think that's really worth getting into.

Actually, I am pretty sure US soldiers can rape and kill as many foreign civilians they want. With U.S. civilians, its a little more complicated with the whole rape thing, but not much (only if more than one person complains a WHOLE lot)....

And I would say that SOME Israeli soldiers act like savages. Some do realize that it's not okay to kill a teenager for throwing a rock at your tank...



"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees
Jakegnosis
Morcilla








Since: 26.7.02
From: Maine

Since last post: 2678 days
Last activity: 2662 days
#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.91

    Originally posted by Leroy

    Actually, I am pretty sure US soldiers can rape and kill as many foreign civilians they want.



That's one of the most disgusting, fucked-up things I've ever heard.

As a US Army Ranger, I would like to say "fuck you."



Moo hoo ha ha.

Rangers lead the way
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