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The W - Baseball - ALMVP (Page 2)
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Jubuki
Kolbasz








Since: 16.7.02

Since last post: 4354 days
Last activity: 4337 days
#21 Posted on
Are all of you really this stupid? Quit talking about your wallets.

If Rodriguez "wasn't about the money", as he said when he bolted Seattle, he would've had the guts to A) take a backloaded contract from Seattle to let them still sign Ichiro and/or Boone and make a run last & this year (likely winning the MVP in the process), or B) would have taken less money at Texas and purposely undervalued himself so that the rest of the lineup could have been bolstered. The fact that they're throwing money at him DOES impact the team - they could have a BETTER TEAM THAT COULD HELP HIS STATS & make him look like a winner if they weren't paying him so much.

Granted, it'd help if Pudge had been healthy and Park hadn't been a relative wash, but I doubt even those two would be enough to get that team anywhere. Rodriguez is the best all-around player in baseball right now, but he doesn't appear to be the most valuable one to his team - he doesn't push them over the edge from pretender to wildcard, or from wildcard to division leader, or division leader to World champ. Guys like Hunter and Soriano and Giambi have respectable numbers AND can say they push their team to a higher level, on and off the field, even if none of them are THE guy to make the team go, the way Barry Bonds is for the Giants. The point was made quite a while ago that the award isn't "most outstanding" -- it's most valuable. Rodriguez doesn't meet the very criterion that the award's named after; how can he win?



Chris
The AIR RAID CRASH
JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 11 days
Last activity: 11 min.
AIM:  
Y!:
#22 Posted on
Anyone who would imply that A-Rod SHOULD have either "A) take a backloaded contract from Seattle to let them still sign Ichiro and/or Boone and make a run last & this year (likely winning the MVP in the process), or B) would have taken less money at Texas and purposely undervalued himself so that the rest of the lineup could have been bolstered" is stupid.

OF COURSE it was about the money. We all know that. But surely A-Rod took the money in good faith that the Rangers were going to try to build a winner around him, which they have TRIED to do, even though for two years they have failed miserably. He still can't be the MVP if the Rangers suck unless he puts a year together that is WAY better than everyone else, like if he wins the Triple Crown. I still don't think he would *be* the MVP if the did that while the Rangers lost 90 games, but winning the Triple Crown would overshadow the losing and I think he *would* win the award.

And the wallet thing, T.R.'s analogy was silly and misplaced and COMPLETELY lost in the context of this thread and I tried to bring it back around so it would make sense. Sorry if that wasn't obvious.
David Adams
Boerewors








Since: 2.1.02
From: NJ

Since last post: 95 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#23 Posted on
If I had to choose between the two Yanks that are in contention, I'd go with Giambi. Why? .427 and .333. One is Giambi's on base percentage, the other is Soriano's.

Soriano provides a spark and the dynamic of a power hitting lead off batter, but Giambi is the anchor of the Yankees lineup right now.

Just my $.02
Tom Dean
Bockwurst








Since: 30.8.02
From: New York, NY

Since last post: 3267 days
Last activity: 2637 days
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#24 Posted on
The point was this... You have $94, and you want to end up with $100. All you need, for your purposes, is $6. That doesn't mean that $6 is more valuable than $10! And similarly, the fact that the non-Soriano Yankees are closer to a pennant than the non-A-Rod Rangers doesn't make Soriano better than A-Rod. (I actually picked the specific numbers for a reason, insofar as you need about 100 wins to win a pennant, and my wild-assed guess is that A-Rod is worth about 10 and a guy like Soriano is worth about 6.) Jubuki put into words exactly the point that my analogy was trying to address when he said "he doesn't push them over the edge from pretender to wildcard, or from wildcard to division leader, or division leader to World champ." That's exactly what I don't think it makes sense to attribute to A-Rod personally.

I admit that A-Rod would not win the Most Bang for the Buck Award, because he is fairly paid rather than underpaid. If that is your criteria, then surely Soriano is the MVP since, as a second year guy, he probably makes very little. And either Pujols or Dunn is presumably the NL MVP. It's funny, though, that I have never previously heard salary considered in the MVP discussion before, ever, either by a writer or by a fan.



"How YOU Doin'?"
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JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 11 days
Last activity: 11 min.
AIM:  
Y!:
#25 Posted on
1. Including A-Rod's salary in the discussion is totally stupid, and has no bearing on whether he is the MVP or not. (We agree on this much, T.R.)

2. Charles Barkley said recently about the NBA MVP that if they gave it to the best player, Jordan would have had to win it every year he was in the NBA from 1986-1997, but being the Most *Valuable* Player doesn't have that much to do with being the best, especially if the team as a whole isn't so good. I think (unfortunately for A-Rod, who no doubt is pissed about losing out on the MVP bonuses in his contract) that has to apply here. Barry Bonds keeps winning the NL MVP because his teams are pretty much always in the hunt in the NL West. If the Rangers were even remotely good A-Rod would be a shoo-in but I think he's fourth at best this year behind Soriano, Giambi, and Hunter, not necessarily in that order.

Edit: Looking at the standings and the statistics, I'd say A-Rod is probably only the third most valuable *shortstop* behind Nomar and Tejada. Hopefully the Rangers get good pretty soon because that's kind of silly, similar to the act that I thought Shaq should have been 6th in the NBA MVP vote (behind Kidd, T-Mac, Pierce, KG, and TD).

(edited by JayJayDean on 13.8.02 2256)
jfkfc
Liverwurst








Since: 9.2.02

Since last post: 60 days
Last activity: 6 days
#26 Posted on

    Originally posted by David Adams
    If I had to choose between the two Yanks that are in contention, I'd go with Giambi. Why? .427 and .333. One is Giambi's on base percentage, the other is Soriano's.

    Soriano provides a spark and the dynamic of a power hitting lead off batter, but Giambi is the anchor of the Yankees lineup right now.

    Just my $.02



The OBP difference is telling, as are the walks, but Soriano has:

6 more runs scored
28 more hits
48 more total bases
15 more doubles
an extra tater
29 more steals
------------
17 less RBI's (leading off)
65 less walks (he's a definite hacker!)
38 more K's (again, hackus maximus)

I think Soriano would get the nod over Giambi perhaps because JG is just having a typical year, whereas Soriano is more of a "Who'da thunk it?" (Even though the NYY management has been predicting this from him for at least a year)

Regarding the "Arod should have taken less money (or deferred/backloaded) to get more help around him, or to possibly stay with Seattle....no chance. Do you think the Player's Association would look kindly on that? I know, fuck the MLBPA, but aren't they the ones who got all riled up when Glavine signed his last extention with the Braves at less than market value? I would just think that when a guy in his early 20's is staring in the face a situation to not only set himself for LIFE, but to put him in the lap of luxury for the rest of his life.....hey, I can't really blame him. He is full of crap to say it wasn't the money, but would you expect a player in that situation (ar any player in any situation) to say "I signed with this team because they paid me the most money"?



"You know Monsoon, I am impressed, and I don't impress easy"
-Jesse "The Body" Ventura

skorpio17
Morcilla








Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

Since last post: 2371 days
Last activity: 2371 days
#27 Posted on
Also important to note here is that A-Rod is playing in Arlington Park which leads the majors in homeruns allowed. They say it is like playing in a wind tunnel.

Once again the position is very important. Soriano and
A-Rod deserve more credit because their stats come from guys who are not DHs, 1st baseman, or outfielders. If you replace Soriano with Enrique Wilson, you will lose a ton of production. You replace Tori Hunter with Mohr/Kietly, or Ichiro with McLemore, you don't lose that much as they are both very good outfielders.



-Brian Popkin
JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 11 days
Last activity: 11 min.
AIM:  
Y!:
#28 Posted on
Can we please, please, PLEASE end this talk of A-Rod's salary affecting his teams ability to get good players right now?

FACT: The Texas Rangers had the 3rd highest opening-day payroll in the Major Leaguesat $105 million.

FACT: Take A-Rod's $22 million off that and you have a payroll *still* higher than the Mariners, who have the 9th highest payroll at $80 million.

FACT: Eighteen (72% of the team) Rangers have a salary at $1 million or higher.

These aren't the Royals, for crying out loud. Or the A's who would've paid Giambi $15 mil and everyone else $25 mil combined. The Rangers have a bunch of high-priced ballplayers who are either overpaid or underachieving (except A-Rod) but they have all the players they want.


Separately, I don't think the position has *anything* to do with who should be the MVP. Who has the most effect on who wins or loses a game? The pitcher. (See Johnson, Schilling, and the 2001 World Series, for example.) If you take out your ace pitcher you would have to replace him with (presumably) your 6th best pitcher, so why wouldn't Derek Lowe or Pedro be the MVP if you're factoring that in?
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 46 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#29 Posted on
You know what....you're all wrong! Yeah. That's right! AL MVP this year SHOULD be.....

Magglio Ordonez

I mean he hits .325, has 100 RBI (99 actually), 27 HR, .390 OBP out of the 3 and 4 spots, .590 Slug, and he only makes 6.5 million a year...now that's value!
Seriously though, I hate the fact no one even mentions Ordonez, just because the White Sox have been tanking something fierce since May. Out of the top candidates for MVP (A-Rod, Soriano, Giambi, Hunter, Ichiro) the only one with a higher BA is Ichiro, the only one with substantially more homers is A-Rod (Ordonez is 2 behind Giambi and Soriano), and he's basically tied for the AL lead in RBI's (one behind A-Rod) While I personally would give the award either to A-Rod (best individual) or Hunter (most valuable to his team), the fact that twenty-some posts in no one has even mentioned Magglio is just not right.



You never know when you'll meet that special someone... the someone that's mysteriously blind to your flaws. or, you know, stupid enough not to realize that yes, you really are that cynical.
jfkfc
Liverwurst








Since: 9.2.02

Since last post: 60 days
Last activity: 6 days
#30 Posted on
It's official....Alfonso Soriano is a card-carrying member of the 30-30 club (the first 2B in the club, but like that matters).

That dood roolz! ALMVP!



"You know Monsoon, I am impressed, and I don't impress easy"
-Jesse "The Body" Ventura

Chico Santana
Boudin rouge








Since: 2.7.02
From: Jaaaaamacia Mon, No Problem.

Since last post: 4016 days
Last activity: 4013 days
#31 Posted on
There is a good chance that if your team sucks even if your a great player you ain't going to get shit. It is a very rare chance that A-Rod could win, MVP history will show it is someone on a team that is in the hunt for a post season run.

Nomar-Has the RBI's
B.Williams-The BA
Soriano-Great all around year
Ichiro-Has the BA
Tejada-Great all around year
A-Rod-One of the best players with Bonds,Sosa,and Vlad.(But his team sucks)
T.Hunter-Great all around player(but the press don't show Minnesota any respect)

Personally I think it's gonna be between Tejada and Soriano. I'm a Red Sox fan and love the way Nomar hits and play's, but I still gotta say Soriano will win it.

(edited by Chico Santana on 17.8.02 1856)


"SAL BANDINI, WANNA WRESTLE?"
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- drjayphd, Posada's "Entrance Music" (2002)
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