It seems to me lately, especially since this necrophelia thing got rolling, that there seems to be basically two groups of fan on this board. For the sake of making it simple, I'll call them "Haters" and "Hardcores". And from where I sit...You guys just can't seem to get along. Let me explain (and pardon my lengthy post, but I have a lot to get off my chest)
HATERS: Don't get me wrong here...these people don't hate everything. They would love to great storylines, they would love to see Benoit every week in the main event, Angle vs. Rey in the main events, championships being gven to the right people (as in NOT Triple H or Taker)....They just won't accept the fact that booking is an extremely difficult job when you're dealing with 30 or 40 wrestlers who want their character to shine. They utter terms like "PoocHHHie" and "glass ceiling" at will, and seemingly post more about politics than the actual happenings on the show. To them, everything is linked to hatred of Triple H and Undertaker. They believe Chris Jericho was punished for having the same hair color as Triple H.
This seems like a funny stereotype of the whole IWC actually (although there are plenty that don't look at wrestling this harshly). If you need proof about what I am talking about with the "haters", I'll give you a small example...Right after No Mercy I started a thread dedicated to the praising of Undertaker for his bladejob, overall brutal match, and putting over of Brock Lesnar. I had about 7 people respond with positive comments...and that was it. The board very QUICKLY turned to "Triple H should've jobbed to Kane, necrophelia sucks, blah blah". Once again, there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THOSE OPINIONS, but what I find kind of disappointing is this: Undertaker was quite a hated man from Unforgiven on. The IWC flipped over not jobbing in that match. But then, as Undertaker pulled out that great No Mercy performance and made Brock look ALL THE BETTER by waiting that extra month...the IWC was silent. Because that's what SHOULD have happened. When things are going well, there's no reason for the "Haters" to post. "Undertaker sucks! He never jobs! He's holding people d....whoa...what a bladejob....damn thats a brutal match.....shit!...F-5 in the middle! Brock won!....umm so....Taker sucks...wait...Triple H sucks! Yea! That match didn't resolve anything! PoocHHHie sucks! Who's Undertaker? What are you talking about?" One look at the board following No Mercy reveals this.
HARDCORES: This group BASICALLY has their ideas right, but go about getting their point across in a hostile way. "I like Triple H. Fuck you all for thinking different". Or "it's TV, get over yourself and wake up". My favorite happens to be "You wrestling nerds don't realize it's fake. IT'S FAKE!!!!". Not much more to say about them actually.
Arite this is what I'm trying to say here. I think no matter who you are, a hater, a hardcore, a mix, casual fan, whatever....Think for yourself. Don't listen to people when they gang up on Triple H for jobbing Jericho to Ric Flair. Don't listen to them when they say Undertaker sucks. If you like Undertaker, cheer for the Undertaker. If you like Triple H, by god cheer for him. If you found Monday night funny, don't question whether you're wrong or not because everybody else says its "repulsive". If you enjoy watching, don't think you have bad taste. Don't listen when people say WWE is going down the toilet and they're on a one-way train to hell. WWE has gone through many eras where the majority of these same naysayers buried the federation for the horrible angles and feuds. I watched WWF 1994-1996. I was there. And I loved it, because I was 15 years old, didn't use AOL yet, and didn't involve myself with the IWC. Now I look at how everybody here discusses those times...and man....they DO seem like they suck now! And you know what? That's the sad thing. If you hear enough crap about "PoocHHHie" and Undertaker holding everybody down, how RVD sucks because he has no psychology, how morally wrong the angles are....you'll start to actually BELIEVE it. But maybe not...maybe you won't believe it. But you know what? You'll always be thinking about it when Triple H comes out for one too many interviews or when Taker wins. You'll think to yourself "oh man the IWC is gonna go nuts. Undertaker probably was supposed to lose but changed it at the last second". To the group I basically outlined at "hardcores": The Haters have a right to their opinion too.
The bottom line: Haters, try not to get too wrapped up in politics. Wrestling is simple when not dissected too deeply. Just from watching Raw sometimes with the mindset of "I have hope...but I'm pretty sure HHH will do something and ruin my high hopes" is enough to ruin a good show. And give praise where it is due. Just because something happens that is "supposed" to happen, don't ignore it. Give props to the Undertaker, start a thread about how WWE has put on good matches since SummerSlam (even if most are Smackdown), and kick back with a beer and enjoy Raw once in a while. And hey, if you DON'T enjoy Raw, go ahead and tell why. But don't condemn those who see it a different way. Triple H banged a plastic doll on Raw. Why does that make you mad? Come on, say it out loud: "Triple H banged a plastic doll on Raw". See, didn't that make you kind of laugh? It's all entertainment. WWE is not going to hell because they started this angle. You may look at it like this kind of "crap" will lead to the downfall, but remember that some people actually enjoy it. It will go away like all other bad angles. You'll be missing good ones in the meantime. Hardcores, don't be so mad. You enjoy Raw also, but don't create a barrier between the IWC because they disliked it and you did like it. We all have a right to that opinion. So just keep you eyes open, everybody. Cause after all....you CHOOSE to watch.
I guarantee I'll have to edit this post because I may sound a little repetitive, but I hope my point gets across. I don't want anybody to hate anybody on this board. Just respect opinions, but most of all, give WWE a chance. If you're not willing to do that, don't watch. We all just want to enjoy the ride.
You can't squeeze all of us into two categories, man. I watch both Raw and SmackDown, and say when I tihnk something is stupid, and when it's good. The Kane/Triple H storyline, for instance, is THE WORST STORYLINE EVER. Period. That does not make me a hater at ALL. If I enjoyed a pathetic, offensive skit showing someone mocking fucking a dead body then I'd praise it. But I don't, unfortunately. I like Goldust. I like Spike Dudley. I like Kane and Triple H. I like freakin' HAKU. Am I a hater or a hardcore?
Apparently, I Am
The Result Of This Survey Was Really, Really Disturbing To Me
You say: "You can't squeeze all of us into two categories, man" "Am I a hater or a hardcore?"
But I already said: "I think no matter who you are, a hater, a hardcore, a mix, casual fan, whatever....Think for yourself".
I state the group "whatever" hoping it would read as "whatever way you see things". I don't think that's really squeezing everybody into two categories.
I didn't mean to imply that everybody fits the "two categories". I meant to say that the board was starting to look like a battleground between different points of view (mostly people sharing the "Hater" and "Hardcore" mentalities). I thoroughly stated, and will state again right now, that not everybody sees things through Hater or Hardcore eyes. After all, I don't...and I know there's more than just me.
Originally posted by BRUTLEThank you again! Hey...looks like a shocking face turn for BRUTLE! Who would've by god expected it?
Oh! And if you ever wanted to get that heel heat back, you could always meander about cemetaries and have sex with any dead bodies left unattended. Better yet, assemble and audience and videotape it. j/k
Great post, and a lot of great points were brought up. As a "Hater", I like to respond to some of them.
For me, I realize that booking is a tremedously hard job. You simply can't just stick Angle/Benoit or Mysterio/Guerrero out there, have them wrestle for 20 minutes each and then sit back and wait for the 5.0 ratings to roll in. Egos, injuries and things that we can't even imagine, cause we're not backstage, all go into creating 4 hours a week of new shows, which has to be a tremendous strain on the writers, wrestlers and all the bookers involve. I think (once again, my opinion) what comes of the frustration and why people like to post negative stuff, especially now, is that there is feeling that nothing going to change and it's going to just get worse. Wrestling always bragged about being the one sport/entertainment that really listened to the fans. The Rock and Austin are 2 prime examples of guys that became huge because Vince listen to the fans and pushed them accordingly. Being able to go to a house show or TV taping and cheer on your favorite wrestler, in hopes that he gets pushed, just added to the entertainment, knowing that we, as fans, can control what happens and what we see. Right now, it isn't really happening. No matter how much a person cheers for RVD, Booker (I'm shocked by how many of my friends, who watch wrestling really casually, love this guy) or Edge, we seemed to be stuck with Triple H, Undertaker and Brock Lesnar. I happen to like Lesnar, myself, but it feels like I have no choice but to like him or at least live with him. Yes, the Undertaker did the right thing, but the feeling is that him even being in the position of main eventing 2 PPV, which probably did lousy buyrates, is something that many "haters" (and judging by the numbers, marks too) didn't want to see. To give him praise for jobbing cleanly to Lesnar, is to also slag him for not letting go of his spot to someone that more people might have wanted to see.
As for the Triple H thing, it didn't offend me, it just wasn't funny. When the writing is this bad, I just think that they should just rely on the wrestling (after all, they DO have the deepest roster they have ever had) and let the writing sort itself out without trying to shock or cause controversy, which is what they seem to be doing. The sad thing is, these are the same writers who are crafting a pretty damn good feud right now (Triple H vs. Shawn Michaels)
For me, as a consumer and a lifelong fan, quite simply, I'm not getting what I want and what's most disturbing is that it doesn't look like I'm going to get what I want in the future. The hard part is that I'm too into wrestling to stop watching it and I keep telling myself "This is the week that it is going to get better", and it never seems to. Coming here and posting my feelings and reading and sharing ideas is just an outlet for me, and for others to vent frustration, but I do agree that everyone should respect everyone opinion. There's nothing wrong with liking the RAW last night, but there's sure as hell isn't anything wrong with hating it either. And no matter if someone like it, be it from the IWC or from the "marks", it isn't drawing viewers.
(Sorry, I ramble sometimes)
By the way, Storm's gimmick includes 1.) telling the audience to shut up, and 2.) occasionally making everyone stand for the Canadian national anthem. You know they don't know what to do with a wrestler when he's making fans stand for a national anthem. It's like waving a white flag and saying, "This guy has no personality -- we give up."
I am not an internet wrestling fan. I am a wrestling fan who has the internet. I've seen Stampede Wrestling. I watched ECW. I watched WCW. I still watch WWF, even when it gets painful to do so.
I like Chris Benoit, Eddy Guerrero, Kurt Angle and the other so-called "good workers". But I also love the Undertaker & Rikishi. I marked out for The Worm and Hulk Hogan. Still do, from time to time.
I enjoy good wrestling. Be it comedy, serious or a mix of both. I've met pretty much all the Hart Family at one time or another, and I can safely say that Bret probably DID screw Bret.
I like entertaining angles to set up my good matches. Let me repeat that...TO SET UP MY GOOD MATCHES. Like, say, The Rock cutting a promo on any number of opponents before laying the smack down...or the Booker T/Stone Cold grocery store brawl...or the Love Triangle...if they'd finished it.
Necrofelia isn't funny. It's stupid and sick. It's not entertaining. And what's worse, it's not setting up good wrestling. I'm not hardcore, I'm not a hater. I'm a wrestling fan. And I'll stick it out with the faint hope that something good will eventually slip through the cracks and get to us. Or I'll just stick to SmackDown from now on.
Onward to glory freeway! you've just pretty much sumed up what i would've said had i the acuman or the time. Only thing i gotta say against you is that as long as i can remember 2000, SuperH will still live on as the best heel on the planet..... plus i thought X-Pac rocked but that's by the by.
I have to say I agree with most of what you are saying. I do think there are major haters out there go to www.theotherarena.com sometime if its still open. Talk about geeks with a hardon for scarcasm. One of the reasons I bailed there and joined this site. I call this site mainly because there are people here that will call out other people if they say stupid stuff like "Rock doesn't job enough." "Booker T is unfunny" or other remarks that makes me wish I could leap through my computer and strangle the other person typing those words. This place has a nice assortment of fans and smarks.
I would like to think I'm the average fan, but thats not the case anymore. I see the politics and read about it and I get pissed. I see the grand HHH conspiracy and want to shot Steph. So, I guess I am a hater, but I do find some good things with Raw like a good hardcore match or the slow building of Eric's demise to the Army of Freaks or even the Snow/Nowenski angle. Its just I like the WWE so much that its been tough for me to sit down and watch Raw lately. I plan my entire week around watching Raw, now I'm finding it to be a prison sentence. I just wished they'd end this Kane/HHH thing and move on to making stars and to make stars you have to put them in great matches not stupid storylines.
I keep it simple. Every show has the potential to be the best one ever. Hopefully, it will be. If it isn't, there's always the next show. If it's bad, oh well. I can pop in any one of my WWE videos and watch really good stuff to remind me of how good it can be. If it's great, I'm just happy to be able to see it. I guess I'm a smark who watches as a general mark.
Well, Daryl, you hit it right on the head for me too. I'm like that too. Every time I set up my VCR, I would think that maybe they would learn their lesson and make up for it in a big way, then two hours, ten minutes later, I've wasted some video. I would like to call myself a fan, who's getting more and more choosy by the year, and you really can't blame me, right?! BRUTLE, good on you for a well written post. I knew I wasn't alone!
I thought the post was really lame but I think I'm in the minority on that one. A really poor attempt at some guy who doesn't understand the psychology of group dynamics to explain the psychology of group dynamics. But hey, that's OK. That's what the internet is all about.
So, ROCK ON Brutle.
"You're always 17 in your hometown." - Cross Canadian Ragweed
Originally posted by The Amazing SalamiI thought the post was really lame but I think I'm in the minority on that one. A really poor attempt at some guy who doesn't understand the psychology of group dynamics to explain the psychology of group dynamics. But hey, that's OK. That's what the internet is all about.
So, ROCK ON Brutle.
I think the only thing I don't understand is that post LoL. Screw you! I mean...thanks...wait...uh....!
You make some good points, but you sort of meandered and contradicted yourself and lost me in the second half of the post.
BRUTLE said:kick back with a beer and enjoy Raw once in a while.
Triple H banged a plastic doll on Raw. Why does that make you mad? Come on, say it out loud: "Triple H banged a plastic doll on Raw". See, didn't that make you kind of laugh? It's all entertainment. WWE is not going to hell because they started this angle. You may look at it like this kind of "crap" will lead to the downfall, but remember that some people actually enjoy it.
This is wrong and it's also kind of insulting. You're basically telling me that if I don't enjoy Raw, it must be my fault for having the wrong mindset. Secondly, you're using the bogus "well other people like it" cliche, which makes no sense. If someone enjoyed something, would you tell them to temper their joy because "some people actually hate it?"
The big problem is that by people talking about the backstage crap, then other people talking about the people who talk about the backstage crap, the discussion gets further and further removed from the actual wrestling shows (and I realize the irony of myself talking about the people who talk about the people who talk about the backstage crap).
Some suggestions to help improve one's posting:
1) Refrain from using nicknames unless they're original. Cripple H, PoocHHHie, etc. are out.
2) Don't you hate it when the announcers are talking about HHH or Undertaker during someone else's match or segment? If you don't want them to do it, you shouldn't either. Don't bring them into a discussion about Booker T or Kurt Angle.
3) We don't really know what's going on backstage. Not only does this mean we don't know that the latest story is true, it also means we don't know that it's false. Don't assume one and flame someone else for assuming the other.
4) If you really absolutely have to talk about backstage politics, maybe you should make a separate thread about it so as not to derail a nice wrestling oriented thread.
5) If you just wish people would talk about the wrestling instead of the backstage stuff, lead by example.
6) Do you own stock in World Wrestling Entertainment? Which matters more to you: buyrates, ratings, or your own personal enjoyment? Figure this out then post accordingly.
7) Respect other's opinions, don't defer to them.
8) If you feel the need to flame someone, breathe deeply, count to ten, watch that mpeg of Chae's boob popping out, and reconsider.
Yea I warned that it might happen with everything I was trying to get out in my post...let me try to clarify what was INTENDED....
I think when I was trying to get people to laugh at the "plastic doll" situation, I meant that you should look at wrestling for what it is and just try to enjoy it, because it looked clear to me that people would come on the board and bury the WWE and basically rip it apart at every chance. And I was trying to explain that these people don't say anything positive, and want to convince the rest of the world that the WWE is going down. I'm not trying to tell people to like the necrophelia angle or not, I was simply stating don't take it so seriously. "Just try saying it out loud", and hear how stupid it sounds. That's what I meant....By saying "You may look at it like this kind of "crap" will lead to the downfall, but remember that some people actually enjoy it", I hoped it would translate as "You think the WWE is going straight to hell with every waking moment, but don't ruin it for the people who do like the show".
I think the rest of my post basically gets the point across. Disagree, but don't act so negative towards things as if they're never gonna change. My comment about laughing at Triple H as Kane was made as an example only.
I know I meander a lot, sorry for that. I hope this cleared up what I INITIALLY tried to get across.
And on a last note, I don't see how you can look at that post at any point and get insulted. I may meander and my thoughts might get jumbled and come out wrong, but try to understand what I'm saying first. All I was trying to get across (in a lengthy way) is to respect each other's opinions, go about it in a civilized way, and give the WWE a chance or don't ruin it for the ones who like it. Try not to be so insulted by such a post. There's plenty of other people out there who are TRYING to insult others. Call our exchange a "misunderstanding". I can see from the views you listed that we share a lot of the same philosophy.
Even if Sabin was a lil tike at the time of the match...he's in the buissness know...and that's a match that is generally regarded as having killed Sting's heat...having killed an entire big angle. What CRZ says is right comes off as more than a mark.