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22.7.14 1850
The W - Baseball - AL MVP: Does anybody look at the numbers?
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skorpio17
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Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

Since last post: 2317 days
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#1 Posted on
Tejada won by an overwhelming margin and I can't understand that voting.

Looking at the numbers A-Rod had 23 more Home Runs, 9 more RBIs, 16 more Runs, better OBP, better SLG, much better OPS 1.02 to .86. If you disqualify him for being a loser, that is your only defense.

Soriano had similar numbers to Tejada. More Runs scored and less RBIs as a lead-off hitter. Similar OPS, .88 to .86. Only Soriano had 41 Steals compared to 7 for Tejada. You disqualify him by saying stolen bases don't matter.

compared to Tejada, Giambi had a better batting average, Home Runs, Runs Produced (R + RBI), better OBP, better SLG, much better OPS 1.03 to .86.

Worst of all, they vote Garrett f'n Anderson ahead of Giambi. And Giambi was better in every category. Giambi had an OPS of 1.03 to Anderson's .87.

thoughts?

My final ranking is
1. A-Rod
2. Soriano
3. Giambi
4. Tejada
5. somebody else with better numbers than Anderson.




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Since: 9.2.02

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.87
Just my opinion, but I am not shocked that Tejada won, nor that he won so decisively. Why? He was the best player who was the most valuable to his team. Arod had better numbers for a crap team who would have lost more games without him, but to me, that doesn't equate to "value to a team". Giambi and Sori, they both had great years, and being a Yankee fan, I would have loved to see Sori get it. That said, when you have another guy on your team putting up monster numbers, then it makes either one less valuable. Neither truly carried their team, as Tejada did. I have always been a Garret Anderson fan (was hoping the Yanks would get him a few years ago), but I don't think he was a lot more valuable to his team than Washburn. I can't believe Washburn didn't even get a vote (though I prefer position players get MVP's). Personally, I think Bernie should have placed in the top 4, because I believe he carried the Yanks for about 2-3 months. Tejada wins out I guess since he did it in a close pennant race.



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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Tejada was clearly more valuable to the A's than A-Rod to the rangers. Tejada also carried the A's during a bunch of that 20 game winning streak and they had one hell of a time trying to stay ahead of Anaheim and Seattle just to win the west.

A-Rod had one hell of a year, but for a really bad team. Texas would have been as deep in the shithouse with A-Rod as without. And Giambi wasn't that valuable to the Yankees either. I mean, they were a pretty damn good team before he got there. They won 4 consecutive AL titles; with him they lost in the first round and they would probably have done that with or without him.

If there were a Most Oustanding Player award, then A-Rod wins it hands down. But since the MVP does not go to the player with the best year(please see Albert Belle going all world in 1995 and losing out to Mo Vaugh) then Tejada gets the nod over A-Rod.
TheCow
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Since: 3.1.02
From: Knoxville, TN

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#4 Posted on
It's all about timing, too. Look at Chipper Jones in '98 (or was it '97? I don't remember the exact year, but it's one of 'em - anyway...) - he was receiving some MVP attention, then his domination of the Mets basically gave him the award right there.

It's the same situation with Tejada this year - he was getting some outside consideration, then Oakland rips off a 20-game winning streak that Tejada is a big part of. It pretty much seals the deal for him. Say what you want about numbers, but valuable doesn't necessarily mean money.

Moving on, the reason why either Giambi or Soriano didn't get it (wow, that's bad grammar) is because they play for the same team. It's hard to put a quantity on how valuable someone was to their team when they're surrounded by 1 or 2 other MVP candidates. It'll split the vote. The only real bone of contention I see with Soriano is his stolen bases, since they are for the most part purely solo. However, a MVP doesn't normally turn on stolen bases.

As much as A-Rod probably deserves to get the MVP for the season he had, he wasn't going to get it - as Grimis said, they'd still be pretty deep in the shithouse with or without him. Yeah, he was the best player, but he's got to break some kind of seasonal record to get the MVP - unless, of course, Texas stops sucking.







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cfgb
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Ottawa, Ontario

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.87
I'm pretty sure Chipper Jones was 1999... You'd think I'd know for SURE, considering I've been a huge fan since his rookie season, but I'm not 100%. ANYWAY....

I'd have to give the nod to Soriano, because while the Yankees would have been good, I don't think they'd have been AS good, and probably wouldn't have caught the division title until much later in the season... Take out the support peg - and the whole Yankee machine falls down.

Soriano had EVERYTHING you could ask for at a notoriously weak position. I know the idea of "MVP" is a tad up in the air as to exactly WHAT it means, but I believe it as that guy who runs the ship that keeps you together. Tejada was close...but not quite Soriano.

His season is remarkably similar to one Ichiro Suzuki, the MVP from 2001 - EXCEPT that Soriano kicked in the power. Does putting up better numbers disqualify you from taking the award or something?

Tejada was hot for a stretch - but I'd always imagined the MVP was the guy who stayed hot all season long. I overlook A-Rod - because his spark alone wasn't able to make his team any better. I'm of the belief you could have sent Soriano to a team like Milwaukee and had 'em win an additional 15-20 games just based on his irritating speed on the base paths, his constant power means you have to pitch around him (though his walks leave something to be desired), and his average was nothing to scoff at.

Though it's hardly the biggest ripoff in MVP history. Terry Pendleton did win in '91.




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drjayphd
Scrapple
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Since: 22.4.02
From: Long Island

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#6 Posted on
Well, the knock on Soriano, as far as I can see, is that he doesn't bring the defense at what should be a defensively strong position. Although that may come in time, this just isn't his year. And Giambi did split a good portion of time between 1B and DH... not sure if that stands for much, but it's a little something to ponder.

But Tejada was pretty much the closest thing the A's had to a superstar position player, and he finally managed to break through into the Big (well, now) Five at SS. He was seen as someone with the potential to be that good, and now he is.

cfgb: You said that if it weren't for Soriano, the Yanks woulda caught the title anyway. Who really cares about how soon they clinch? Besides, aren't you neglecting... well, Boston? If you're trying to argue that he was critical, say that the Yanks might not have taken the AL East because of a Boston team that put 2001 behind them and played like they should.

As far as A-Rod goes, even if Texas grows some pitching and doesn't suck as hard, I still don't think he'll win it until he has to carry the offensive load almost by himself. He's easily the most outstanding player this season, but they still don't have an award for that.



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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
If anybody got jobbed on an award in the AL this year, it was Mike Bordick being passed over for the Gold Glove at SS in favor of....A-Rod, who was FOURTH in the league in Fielding Percentage. I mean, all Bordick did was make 1 error all year and set the record(still in progress) for most consecutive errorless games and most consecutive errorless chances.

Of course we all know why A-Rod won the GG: his bat.
Whitebacon
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

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#8 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis
    If anybody got jobbed on an award in the AL this year, it was Mike Bordick being passed over for the Gold Glove at SS in favor of....A-Rod, who was FOURTH in the league in Fielding Percentage. I mean, all Bordick did was make 1 error all year and set the record(still in progress) for most consecutive errorless games and most consecutive errorless chances.

    Of course we all know why A-Rod won the GG: his bat.




Bordick was also out for a good portion of the season due to injury, I believe.



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cfgb
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Ottawa, Ontario

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.87
Rafael Palmeiro won the Gold Glove at first base a couple years ago, despite playing less than 30 games at the position...

Bordick has a case.




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Whitebacon
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Since: 12.1.02
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#10 Posted on
A-Rod (I believe) also had more chances at SS, while playing behind pitching staffs that were real similar.



"HHH, you should probably do the job here to put RVD over for the good of the company." "Vince, I'm just a caveman! I was out hunting when I fell in some ice and was unfrozen by your scientists. Your future world frightens and confuses me. You say these words like "job" and "put over" and "good of the company" but my primative mind can't grasp these concepts!"---Vince Mcmahon/Unfrozen Caveman Wrestler, Dr. Unlikely 17.9.02
squiz
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Since: 5.1.02
From: Dover, NH

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#11 Posted on
First of all, TheCow, you were correct, it was 1999 that Chipper went wild and destroyed not only the Mets, but the entire league.

Just to throw something out there to see what sticks...Let's take a look at the top 5 vote getters in the AL, and look at their Close & Late situational statistics. (Close & Late is cosidered to be the 7th inning or later while being ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck.) Afterall, an MVP should be someone who can win you a game all by himself late, right? (XBH=Extra Base Hits)

Miguel Tejada: .327 AVG, .859 OPS, 4 HR, 18 RBI, 9 XBH in 98 AB
Alex Rodriguez: .250 AVG, .921 OPS, 7 HR, 23 RBI, 14 XBH in 96 AB
Alfonso Soriano: .320 AVG, .776 OPS, 1 HR, 12 RBI, 8 XBH in 97 AB
Garret Anderson: .295 AVG, .796 OPS, 2 HR, 17 RBI, 11 XBH in 95 AB
Jason Giambi: .278 ABG, 1.029 OPS, 7 HR, 18 RBI, 11 XBH in 72 AB

It's safe to say the Giambi, from a purely statistical aspect, was clearly the more dominant hitter here, followed by A-Rod. But you can't discount Tejada's .327 batting average either.

And lets throw one more situation out there that seems to me to be important...

Runners In Scoring Position with 2 outs.

Tejada: .373 AVG, .969 OPS, 2 HR, 37 RBI, 7 XBH in 67 AB
Rodriguez: .228 AVG, .885 OPS, 4 HR, 19 RBI, 5 XBH in 57 AB
Soriano: .302 AVG, .863 OPS, 3 HR, 24 RBI, 6 XBH in 63 AB
Anderson: .313 AVG, .972 OPS, 3 HR, 34 RBI, 14 XBH in 80 AB
Giambi: .246 AVG, .877 OPS, 4 HR, 23 RBI, 7 XBH in 57 AB

Hmm...Tejada wins this catagory. Nice showing by Anderson, though.

And, one last section, as this also very much affects how voting swings, is how each did in September. Afterall, if a team is in a pennant race (all 4 but A-Rod), this is an important time to perform. Also, it's the last impression voters will have in their mind.

Tejada: .313 AVG, .888 OPS, 6 HR, 21 RBI, 8 XBH in 99 AB
Rodriguez: .202 AVG, .813 OPS, 9 HR, 23 RBI, 12 XBH in 104 AB
Soriano: .280 AVG, .797 OPS, 5 HR, 15 RBI, 9 XBH in 107 AB
Anderson: .295 AVG, .979 OPS, 8 HR, 23 RBI, 16 XBH in 95 AB
Giambi: .388 AVG, 1.242 OPS, 9 HR, 20 RBI, 13 XBH in 80 AB

How about that run for Giambi?

I came into this brief look at the stats with the hope that they would show me something to knock Tejada off the top. I couldn't do it. He had a fantastic year for a fantastic team, and deserved the award. That's not the only thing that changed my mind, either. I always considered Garrett Anderson to be overrated, but, at least by this year's stats, he clearly is not. He would have been 3rd on my voting list, behind Tejada and A-Rod. But, then, maybe I don't have a vote for a reason...











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Since: 14.1.02
From: Ottawa Ontario, by way of Walkerton

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.33
I've always thought that the Big Four (NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB) should not only just keep the MVP award, but also have the M(ost) O(utstanding) P(layer) award that the CFL has, then we wouldn't be having this debate.

A-Rod was indeed the most outstanding player in the game last season....but he definitly wasn't the most valuable to his team. Tejada may not have been hot all season....but you can definitly say that he was more valuable to his team then A-Rod was.

And I agree, Bordick got the shaft. The ONE season Visquel doesn't win it it isn't Bordick. That ain't right.




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Since: 11.12.01
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.21


I think that I agree with Rob Neyer on this one. All these awards are pretty much irrelevant now. Read on.

Click Here





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Eddie Famous
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Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

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#14 Posted on


    Originally posted by pieman
    I think that I agree with Rob Neyer on this one. All these awards are pretty much irrelevant now. Read on.

    Click Here




I agree with pieman that if the files are not found, then the awards are irrelevant.
Pujols should've been NL MVP last year...

Doesn't Bordick have Garvey-esque range...i.e. very little? Not having seen him, I'm going on what others say...



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Since: 6.1.02
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#15 Posted on

    Originally posted by Eddie Famous

      Originally posted by pieman
      I think that I agree with Rob Neyer on this one. All these awards are pretty much irrelevant now. Read on.

      Click Here




    I agree with pieman that if the files are not found, then the awards are irrelevant.

    Pujols should've been NL MVP last year...

    Doesn't Bordick have Garvey-esque range...i.e. very little? Not having seen him, I'm going on what others say...



Yes exactly, that's why, like it was pointed out by someone else, A-Rod has more total chances, nearly 200 more, because he has WAY more range. Which resulted in 63 more put outs and 100 more assists.

Bottom Line, A-Rod got nine more errors, but got 163 more outs for his team. So no, Mike Bordick didn't get robbed.


Yes, it was 99 that Chipper won the MVP after his performance against the Mets. I think something similar happened in 1996 when Piazza was the favorite for MVP then suddenly Caminiti was hot for the last couple of weeks and he won it.



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pieman
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Since: 11.12.01
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.21


The link works fine for me, Eddie. Must be you! hehehe



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