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The W - Pro Wrestling - A Shell of His Former Self..Which Sucked Anyway (Page 2)
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pinnacleofallthingsmanly
Weisswurst








Since: 7.7.02
From: USA

Since last post: 4451 days
Last activity: 4450 days
#21 Posted on
I think Triple H put on all that muscle because he felt like he needed something to show that he was better when he came back from his injury. I know I'm not the only person who was saying Holy S*** when he came back on that RAW. He would have been better off coming back the same size or smaller, but hindisght is 20/20.
The Vile One
Chourico








Since: 3.1.02

Since last post: 4409 days
Last activity: 4286 days
#22 Posted on
I honestly don't believe that HHH was supposed to win that match at wrestlemania 2000. I think it got screwed up after Foley missed up the cactus elbow drop onto the table.




"It is a strange fate that we suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing."
-Boromir
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 5 days
AIM:  
#23 Posted on
Okay, I have to come back to this, because I think it says a lot about HHH.

HHH tears his ACL in a match, he finishes the spot he was in, crawls over to the announce table, climbs up on top, attempts a Pedigree and gets put in the Walls of Jericho.

Kevin Nash tears HIS ACL in a match, and collapses in a ball in the corner.

Don't tell me HHH's heart is in this fucking business.



"The only difference between lilies and turds are those humankind have agreed upon, and I don't always agree."
---George Carlin

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music."
---Anon.
ripblazer
Pickled pork








Since: 16.1.02
From: Calgary Alberta Canada

Since last post: 3430 days
Last activity: 3262 days
#24 Posted on

    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
    Okay, I have to come back to this, because I think it says a lot about HHH.

    HHH tears his ACL in a match, he finishes the spot he was in, crawls over to the announce table, climbs up on top, attempts a Pedigree and gets put in the Walls of Jericho.

    Kevin Nash tears HIS ACL in a match, and collapses in a ball in the corner.

    Don't tell me HHH's heart is in this fucking business.



Hell, Angle tore his quad and that night he was at the arena, jumping around.
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1393 days
Last activity: 301 days
#25 Posted on

    Originally posted by ripblazer

      Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
      Okay, I have to come back to this, because I think it says a lot about HHH.

      HHH tears his ACL in a match, he finishes the spot he was in, crawls over to the announce table, climbs up on top, attempts a Pedigree and gets put in the Walls of Jericho.

      Kevin Nash tears HIS ACL in a match, and collapses in a ball in the corner.

      Don't tell me HHH's heart is in this fucking business.



    Hell, Angle tore his quad and that night he was at the arena, jumping around.



Yeah!! And he wasn't sitting around listening to U2 records for eight months!



"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex

"Was he no-selling?" - Me
Ringmistress
Lap cheong








Since: 15.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2639 days
Last activity: 2638 days
#26 Posted on
LOL, I had to get into this thread. It's a great little debate. I'll add my two cents. I taped many of the RAWs and Smackdowns during the McMahon-Helmsley era, and well, I'll just say that HHH wasn't just a heel, he was THE HEEL. His heelishness was an art at that time, and I go back to some of those moments when I'm bored. You guys also forgot to add that in 2000 this guy wrestled....on HEAT! TWICE! Once as the WWF Champ. I don't remember another WWF Champ wrestling on Heat except the classic Angle/Essa Rios match. Looking back on these days, most of todays WWE heels are thrown together, while Hunter's was refined to the point it fitted him like a glove. Ahhhh, what a bastard he was, and I miss it so. I wouldn't be surprised if he regains his steps, even at the expense of the NWO. It must've been real painful for Angle to jump around on that quad, lol.

Ringmistress.



I'm a CRUISERWEIGHT?! Does this mean I get a crack at Nidia?
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 15 days
Last activity: 15 days
#27 Posted on
Sure, Trips was a great heel. You know what I think makes a great heel? The ability to win cleanly and not lose very much (as well as talents in the ring and on the mic). But a good push can get a sub-par guy over just as easily as a good worker. With the push Trips had, Al Snow would have been just as over. To me, that indicates ‘backstage politics’. He went over on the Rock on occasions where there was no reason to assume Austin would recover from injury, like at WM 2000 and Judgement Day in the Iron man, which therefore made Rock the top face who, as such, should have been protected and, because of Trips, wasn’t. Look at it. The closest thing to a clean loss is Trips being eliminated in the ’99 Rumble. Since then, check it out: At St. Valentine’s Day Massacre, he jobs in a tag-match and Ross screams he’s been ‘screwed’. At Wrestlemania XV he loses only by DQ. At Backlash he wins clean. At Over the Edge Trips loses to Rock only by DQ. At King of the Ring of that year, he doesn’t wrestle. Triple H wins clean (unless you count the distraction stip as cheating) at Fully Loaded over GASP the Rock again. At Summerlslam of that year Triple H is not involved in the decision that ends the match, therefore “didn’t lose”, then beats the shit out of the top babyface with a chair (Austin). At Unforgiven, Triple H beats every main eventer there is in the six-pack challenge. At No Mercy, Triple H beats Austin with the Pedigree after Rock misses Helmsley and blasts Austin with the sledge (which you could call Triple H ‘outsmarting’ the Rock from a storyline perspective). Helmsley jobs due to McMahon interference at the Survivor Series the next month, showing he’s a team player, willing to job to the young hungry lion Vince McMahon (since we KNOW he didn’t really job to the Big Show). Triple H beats McMahon at the next PPV, but more importantly gets the daughter and then starts his trek into Christ-hood. The next year it goes on, clean at the Rumble over Foley, and again at No Way Out, and Foley, Show, and Rock at Wrestlemania, (you realize he was the heel in the blowoff event of the year and still didn’t lose, don’t you?) he cheats but still wins, at Backlash Rock needs to be saved by Austin in order for Triple H to lose the belt. He wins it back at Judgment Day (god forbid the Rock keep it longer than a month). Then he loses it back to Rock without losing as McMahon gets pinned so Trips has a right at ANY time to say he didn’t really lose the title, devaluing the title and making it seem like Rock is walking around with HIS title. And you can say “it’s a work” but within the context of the work, Triple H is made to look a million times better than the top babyface, the evidence is in the subtext. At Fully Loaded, even without the belt he puts NO ONE over. He buries Jericho, then gets sledged at Summerslam that year to set up a people’s elbow for the loss again, not clean! The only heel that never loses clean! He beats Angle at Unforgiven the next month, beats Benoit with the pedigree at No Mercy the month after that! At the Series that year, he gets tossed twenty feet in a car in a non-decision then miraculously rises from the dead something like a week later and is unharmed (because his muscles are just so gosh-darned hard you see no mere auto-accident could damage them). Triple H is again not involved in the decision that ends the match at the following Pay-Per-View, Armageddon, in a six-way hell in the cell match. Even when he lost he didn’t lose.
Now even if at THIS point you’d told me that this record was ‘just the WWF’s booking decision’ I would have laughed at you and said you were full of shit. But let’s continue, this is too fun. At the Royal Rumble 2001, Trips is screwed by Austin in a title match with Angle. Then at No Way Out Triple H beats the symbolic king of the common wrestling era two straight falls in a 2/3. Hmmm, interesting. This is just favourable booking for a ‘darn good heel’, by George. Triple H then JOBS MOTHERFUCKING CLEANLY AT THE BIG SHOW IN TEXAS! AT WRESTLEMANIA! I WAS WRONG, HE DOES CARE! HE JOBBED TO THE UP AND COMER THE….Undertaker? Oh…Wait. I get it. He jobs to someone too old to be a threat to his spot, but not the Rock or anyone who can work. Trips wins in the tag at Backlash, where he’s aligned with a heel Austin. By the way, the new heel, with the world title, SHOULD be trying to get over as such, and yet doesn’t get the pin. Wanna know who does? TRIPLE FUCKING H, SILLY! WHO’D YA THINK? At Judgment Day the next month, Triple H loses to Kane. Psst: Due to interference! By who? By Austin, who at this point looks like a heel who just can’t do anything right.
The next night Trips and Stones lose the tag-belts, (did I forget to mention he became the intercontinental and co tag-champ during this period…Oh silly me….He wins so much I couldn’t even remember when he did it for a championship or two!) and in the process of losing said belts, (Austin gets pinned, if you’re wondering) Triple H is mortally injured. If he hadn’t been, I have NO doubt he would have been booked the same unbelievably one-sided, walking-on-water, I-could-rise-on-the-third-day-too-if-I-wanted-to fashion. No doubt. When he came back he won the ’02 Rumble without selling, I can’t recall but wouldn’t be surprised if he won at No Way Out, oh yeah…he lost his title shot (unclean) to Kurt Angle, then 24 hours later got it back (clean). won the title at ‘Mania, and then lost to Hogan at B’Lash (another example of someone who can’t take his spot, this time, not even clean) and at J’Day lost to the Taker ONLY because his bone-chips made it impossible for him to perform as champ. If you think THIS run was all ‘WWF executive decisions’ you must be a retard.
Compare it to the Jericho ‘top heel’ run, before you use that tired-ass argument. Jericho didn’t win a single match clean and was made to look outright lame every chance they got. Even heel champ AUSTIN was booked a little weaker than Trips. If that ain’t politics, then I guess this whole planet is just one big happy monarchy.




"The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he didn't exist. And the greatest trick Hulk Hogan ever played was convincing the world workrate didn't exist."
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 36 days
Last activity: 36 days
#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
Let me introduce you to my friend decaf...

I still have no doubt the WWF wanted Triple H's character to go exactly how it has. Win/Loss record and all. In fact, he wouldn't have been nearly as entertaining as a heel if had been EXACTLY like every other heel on the roster by being a coward who can't beat anyone w/o cheating, which is what you seem to want him to be. You complain when he loses to Undertaker clean because Undertaker's already established and doesn't need the rub, then complain because he doesn't job clean to Austin? What the fuck? It'd be the same thing, and you would be crying, whining, moaning, bitching and throwing a general hissy fit because he jobbed CLEAN TO AUSTIN. OH MY GOD! I LIKE seeing a heel win a feud clean every once in a while, and I hate the fact that the WWF seems to be afraid to do it. But they aren't afraid to with Triple H.



Mean Gene: "You know, I don't think it's a question - Goldberg, I don't think it's a question of who's next, I think it's a question of who's left?"
Goldberg: "No, see, that's where you're wrong. It ain't who's left, it's - WHO'S NEXT?"

"Just how hardcore am I? Well this morning, I drank milk that was two days past the expiration!"
-Norman Smiley

"She is one of them! She's CANADIAN!"
-Stevie Ray
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 15 days
Last activity: 15 days
#29 Posted on
My point Bucsfan, and try to focus, since you obviously missed it completely, was that Undertaker was not good enough in the ring and was not physically capable of performing better than Triple H. He never loses clean to guys like Rock, Austin, Angle, Jericho and so on because that would actually do something for them. And they can WORK. If he loses to ‘Taker, Hogan, Hardy, or Test somewhat cleanly it is only because they are either too old or too worthless to take his spot. When Bret jobbed to HBK, he jobbed to a man who could do all the things he could. That takes balls.



"The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he didn't exist. And the greatest trick Hulk Hogan ever played was convincing the world workrate didn't exist."
SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 13 hours
Last activity: 58 min.
AIM:  
#30 Posted on
HHH jobbing to UT was nice and helped WMX7 achieve the level of greatness it did (until the stupid ending). That said, HHH jobbed to UT clean only because doing so meant that he didn't have to job to Austin/Rock/Angle/etc cleanly in the longrun. Hogan's My Dad is right when he states that those guys are all a threat to HHH's dominance while UT is not. That's one of the things that I believe is hurting WWE's business so badly. No one can look better than HHH and HHH really doesn't look all that good. If HHH jobbed to Austin when the time was right, or Foley, or Rock, it would have helped business tremendously. Especially if Austin ended HHH's "unbeatable" push. When he didn't, it hurt business.

I think the truth lies somewhere between Hogan's My Dad and TheBucsFan's arguments. The fact of the matter is, HHH's push IS a result of executive decisions. His push is exactly where the management of WWE wants to go. They want to make HHH out to look strong so that he can be positioned at the top of the card, because they beleive he truly is "That damn good."

The only problem is that the executives making the decisions are Stephanie McMahon and HHH. It's been this way since 2000.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 10.7.02 1154)
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 36 days
Last activity: 36 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42

    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
    My point Bucsfan, and try to focus, since you obviously missed it completely, was that Undertaker was not good enough in the ring and was not physically capable of performing better than Triple H. He never loses clean to guys like Rock, Austin, Angle, Jericho and so on because that would actually do something for them. And they can WORK. If he loses to ‘Taker, Hogan, Hardy, or Test somewhat cleanly it is only because they are either too old or too worthless to take his spot. When Bret jobbed to HBK, he jobbed to a man who could do all the things he could. That takes balls.


OK, I can understand that. The first time, I read it as you saying Austin needed the rub from Triple H but Taker didn't. I think having him job clean to Taker was a real good idea, but I see what you are saying.



Mean Gene: "You know, I don't think it's a question - Goldberg, I don't think it's a question of who's next, I think it's a question of who's left?"
Goldberg: "No, see, that's where you're wrong. It ain't who's left, it's - WHO'S NEXT?"

"Just how hardcore am I? Well this morning, I drank milk that was two days past the expiration!"
-Norman Smiley

"She is one of them! She's CANADIAN!"
-Stevie Ray
WyldeWolf1
Boerewors








Since: 20.6.02
From: Florida

Since last post: 4396 days
Last activity: 4395 days
#32 Posted on
Triple H entertained me like no one since during his monster heel run. The McMahon-Helmsley era angle was unique and interesting. I loved his character and he STILL made me want him to lose. The booking was great, and the execution was great. Jericho, who everyone says was held down, said in a commentary at the time that if he could wrestle HHH and Benoit every match he would be a happy man. Sounds like HE didn't feel held down.

Conclusion: I was entertained and "the boys" were happy. What more could I want?



WyldeWolf1
The Man of 1,007 holds, making him 3 holds better than Chris Jericho!
Well Its The Big O
Cotechino








Since: 7.1.02
From: Ho Bart

Since last post: 3867 days
Last activity: 3063 days
#33 Posted on
I actually agree somewhat with the original post here, apart from the Angle comparisons.

I think what people are missing is that HHH was a heel. Now, as a heel, it's your job to sell and bump for the faces and HHH did that as well as anyone. Of course you've got to make it look realistic, which HHH does better than anyone in the history of the business for my money, and you've got to at least have a credible offense, which HHH fails at as compared to Austin or Angle or Flair as heels.

I always think it's preposterous to suggest a heel is a great wrestler as it's usually they're job to TAKE the great wrestling rather than dish it out.

What HHH is great at I think is being a serios character actor/performer. He's not smart ass like The Rock or Jericho or HBK, he's not winking at the audience, he's old school in that he wants to make the audience completely believe in his character. At that I think he's the best performer in the business. Combine that with his very good heel work makes him an extremely good performer over all.




The Big O - Sucking More Every Day.
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 36 days
Last activity: 36 days
#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
Actually Big O, good wrestlers make better heels than faces. Generally, it's the heel whose wrestling dominates the match, with the face only having to have enough offense for brief spells and one or two Big Moves that he can hit at the end to make a comeback and win.



Mean Gene: "You know, I don't think it's a question - Goldberg, I don't think it's a question of who's next, I think it's a question of who's left?"
Goldberg: "No, see, that's where you're wrong. It ain't who's left, it's - WHO'S NEXT?"

"Just how hardcore am I? Well this morning, I drank milk that was two days past the expiration!"
-Norman Smiley

"She is one of them! She's CANADIAN!"
-Stevie Ray
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 15 days
Last activity: 15 days
#35 Posted on
Kewl Bucsfan. Just wanted to make myself clear. Don’t get me wrong, either, Trips over the Taker WAS the right decision. But I feel the subtext of how he was booked during that period was detrimental to the Rock, first and foremost, and was detrimental to the Rock in a period where they couldn’t exactly say “we’ve always got Austin”. They didn’t, not then. Austin was presumed to be finished at that time, and Rock was home, and not making movies back then. So why did he never get a clean win over Hunter and a run with the strap? I think it was because of Trips, which was the wrong decision. He had the belt for too long, just like Hogan did in WCW. Why did Hogan have it from mid ’96 to late ’97? They should have done the Sting stuff for Starrcade '96. Hogan winning the belt in August and holding to December would have been long enough of a reign to get all they wanted across. Sting should have had a run into the spring, then dropped it back to Hogan (with nWo help), who would then go on and job it to Goldberg in the summer (which they did anyway). But they waited too long to strike and the opportunity was gone. By Starrcade ’97 no one gave a shit if Sting won the belt. Same thing here, when Rock won the belt from VINCE…It pissed me right off. Did the people pop? Hell yes. They popped for Sting over Hogan too. But that pop didn’t translate into the ratings it should have. Now, Rock is a part-timer at best (albeit one capable of inspirational speeches) Austin is gone, and no one is capable of filling those roles. Do I love Booker? Yes. Do I think RVD is over as anyone right now? Yes. Is Edge going to be a major player? I don’t doubt it! Are Eddy and Benoit the best two pure wrestlers a person could ask for? Yes. Is Angle an in-ring godsend? Naturally. But are any of these people ever going to be stars the level of Hogan, Austin or Rock? Doubtful. I hope I’m wrong, but I doubt these guys will become phenomena…And Triple H needs to what he can now to get the Bookers, RVDs, Edges, Benoits, and Eddys over. And the way to do that is job to them in upcoming matches like he did at X-7 to The Undertaker.

But who in the company is REALLY being pushed? Another guy who can’t talk or work as well as Trips. Brock Lesnar. I can’t make myself believe that’s a coincidence.

The tradition continues.




"The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he didn't exist. And the greatest trick Hulk Hogan ever played was convincing the world workrate didn't exist."
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That probably stems from his boxing days, in boxing he always introduces the fighters once they come out and are in the ring...
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