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The W - Pro Wrestling - A Review of the RAW Roster... (Page 2)
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GRL
Frankfurter








Since: 13.7.02
From: Austin

Since last post: 18 hours
Last activity: 15 hours
#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.37
(deleted by thecubsfan on 13.5.04 1437)
samoflange
Lap cheong








Since: 22.2.04
From: Cambridge, MA

Since last post: 371 days
Last activity: 363 days
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.32
A few points:

HHH is the biggest star in the company who is currently a 100% active wrestler. While it is good that he is not clogging up the title scene so much anymore, he SHOULD have a prominent position on every show he is involved with. Crowds respond to him, he gets it done in the ring, and he's one of the best on the mic and in backstage segments. There isn't one reason to justify lessening his role on the show right now.

I doubt the higher-ups in WWE are prejudiced against Benoit at all. Have you even been watching since January? The man has had the push of a god. He has overcome every obstacle put before him since the Rumble. The match aginst Shawn didn't end with HHH saving Benoit from Shawn, it ended with HHH screwing over Shawn for taking HIS title match, and Benoit happening to capitalize on the situation to get the pinfall. Nothing there says Shawn would have even beaten Benoit if HHH had not come down. Both men were equally beaten at that point, and HHH just added a further blow to his most hated enemy.

Jericho and Christian had several matches throughout the course of their feud because that is what feuds are, a serious of bouts between two guys who hate each other. This is especially true of one which had been brewing for 6 months before either guy actually faced the other. Having just one match to end something that long-term is preposterous. Pro-wrestling would be a very very boring place if every feud were ended in one match.

Seeing Christian as just a "perrenial midcarder" who should have been quickly been dispatched by Jericho is equally as preposterous. Ever hear of elevating talent? Thats what Y2J/Christian was all about. A former ME, now upper-midcarder and a midcarder had a series of very good matches and they both came out the better for it. Now, Jericho can again be seen as a legit World Title contender if WWE chooses to go that route, and Christian is a legit upper-midcarder for giving Jericho such a run for his money. And now it would only take a few weeks of good buildup to get Christian to a level of World Title contention as well.




Lloyd: When I met Mary, I got that old fashioned romantic feeling, where I'd do anything to bone her.
Harry: That's a special feeling.

"Jericho tries for the Walls of Jericho early on, but it is blocked by mysterious rays from Shawn Michaels while a message on the Titantron says, 'This move is mine now.' "
-RAW Satire, 05.10.04
thecubsfan
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 5 hours
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
Okay, so I've had a big reply in this thead blow up thanks to IE and I'm not in a happy mood anyway.

Banned for 12 hours for posting stupidly, 12 hours more for complaining about that post being yanked (when really, I should've banned him to begin with and was being awful nice) and banned 24 hours on top for the unbelievable gall to whine about CRZ complaining on his own board: TheAmazingSalami.

Not Banned Because Even Though He Was Probably Being Sarcastic, He's Right (and he's probably going to get banned for something else later anyway, the rate he's headed): StevenRichards

For the rest of you I've already deleted here (leggo, GRL, hoodle in a second, probably more), we're going to play a little game. If I (or any other mod) have to delete another post after this for living up to the outrageous pointless stupidity of the previous ones, they're done for 48 and EVERYONE ELSE whose had a post pulled here ALSO gets a 48 ban. Your fate is out of your own hands - so maybe you should think before you post next time.

Anyone who has a problem with this is welcome to PM me or CRZ or Guru.



thecubsfan.com - CMLLBlog
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

Since last post: 8 days
Last activity: 14 hours
AIM:  
#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    He (Benoit) has overcome every obstacle put before him since the Rumble.

He still doesn't have a decisive 1-on-1 win over HBK. Hopefully they will eventually do this over the summer (Summer Slam?), but that's 1 obstacle he hasn't overcome.


    Now, Jericho can again be seen as a legit World Title contender if WWE chooses to go that route,

Not sure about that. Beating a career midcarder doesn't vault someone back into the ME scene. Beating someone like Kane would do it, but just beating Christian doesn't. Jericho himself has been floating around the midcard for far too long lately. He'll need a couple more feuds to build up some ME momentum.


    And now it would only take a few weeks of good buildup to get Christian to a level of World Title contention as well

A few weeks? It's going to take longer than that. He needs to go over some higher level faces to get some momentum going to be taken seriously as a ME-level guy. That, and work on his offense, which is too dependant on rest holds. Even if they do stick him in the ME scene, I can't see it being a permanent move. Logically, Benoit still needs to feud w/ HBK, and after that is finished, he'll most likely be dropping the belt back to HHH. Maybe they can shoehorn in a quick Benoit/Christian feud, but I doubt it.



jjfc
Cotechino








Since: 13.5.04
From: DC

Since last post: 3655 days
Last activity: 3424 days
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.11
    Originally posted by Boston Idol
    I keep reading that Benoit is going
    to put over Orton. Given that Orton
    and Benjamin drew boos at a house show,
    I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for
    that feud, at least not this summer.
    More likely Benoit, Edge, or Jericho
    will be tabbed to try to carry Randy.

    Good luck!

    Frank


Do you have a source for this?? Because I read that Orton/Benjamin were given a standing ovation.
Craigerson
Cotechino








Since: 4.8.03
From: Maryland

Since last post: 3057 days
Last activity: 3055 days
AIM:  
#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.54
    Originally posted by Boston Idol
    because he didn't want to face Shawn.

    Glass couldn't be more transparent.




Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here but when was it EVER set up that Benoit didn't want to face Shawn? I don't see the Triple H haters point that Triple H is more important because he did a ru-in on a title match to "save" Benoit. People getting screwed in title shots setting up a match has been happening since I was a little kid watching wrestling. Suddenly Triple H does it and he's putting himself over everyone else and dancing on the glass celing.


    Who was the star of the draft lottery? Who saved Benoit from losing to Shawn?


He was the former Champion, of course they are going to make a big deal about him possibly switching shows. And as samoflange pointed out nothing says Shawn would have even beaten Benoit if HHH had not come down. Yes, Shawn had just hit the superkick but he was in no position to capitalize and both men were down.


    Trip keeps going back to Shawn, like
    forcing Benjamin to disappear into
    thin air so he can feud with Shawn
    for the 4th or 5th time.


I'm sure it went down like this...

Triple H: I'm going to do the run in, keep that fucking camera off of Benjamin!!!


    The problem is that it took him
    numerous matches to win a feud
    with perennial midcarder Christian,
    if indeed the feud is finally over.


He lost at WrestleManiaXX, won at Backlash, cage match was essentially the rubber match. I'm sure I'm missing a Raw match or two in here but I like that they are going back to do actual multi-month feuds. But that's just my own personal preference. We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.

And another personal preference here, "perrenial midcarder" or not I've always found Christian pretty damn entertaining.

Triple H is holding everyone down!
Christian is getting elevated? But he's a midcarder?!
Hypocracy much?

RE: the Divas. Dude, I said decent, not **** OMG classics. I'd rather have that than bimbos like Stacy and Torrie rolling around tugging at each other's hair, no matter how hot they are.

Honestly Idol, I'm trying not to seem like I'm knocking every opinion of yours, its people's inability to just try to enjoy the shows that's starting to wear on me as a fan who surfs the net. Everyone acts like the WWE owes you a good product catered to each person's individual tastes. They run a business and can do it any damn way they please.
samoflange
Lap cheong








Since: 22.2.04
From: Cambridge, MA

Since last post: 371 days
Last activity: 363 days
#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.47
Spaceman Spiff says:

"Not sure about that. Beating a career midcarder doesn't vault someone back into the ME scene. Beating someone like Kane would do it, but just beating Christian doesn't. Jericho himself has been floating around the midcard for far too long lately. He'll need a couple more feuds to build up some ME momentum."

True, it's not a vault into the ME scene. It was a decisive victory over someone who has been built up as a tough competitor for Y2J, as well has having to overcome the interference of two other people to win. The image of Jericho on top of the steel cage with a bloodied Christian beneath him will hopefully be played up big time. So, it's not an instant jump to "I must have the belt now" but more of a transition to "I can definately put up a good fight for the belt." Good booking in the near future can solidify his position.


Spaceman Spiff also says:

"A few weeks? It's going to take longer than that. He needs to go over some higher level faces to get some momentum going to be taken seriously as a ME-level guy. That, and work on his offense, which is too dependant on rest holds. Even if they do stick him in the ME scene, I can't see it being a permanent move. Logically, Benoit still needs to feud w/ HBK, and after that is finished, he'll most likely be dropping the belt back to HHH. Maybe they can shoehorn in a quick Benoit/Christian feud, but I doubt it."

Again, same deal as with Jericho. Neither of these guys are instantly at the top of the roster right now, but after having a successful feud where both of them looked good throughout, they have elevated their respective positions. Jericho was an upper mid carder, now he would be more believable as a main-eventer. Christian was a mid-carder, now he can be considered an upper-midcarder who can hang with the ME talent, but not necesarily beat them yet. He's in the kind of position where he could get the pin over an established ME star in a tag match, or even win due to loads of Trish/Tomko interference in a singles match. I totally agree he needs to work on his offense more, as that is the one thing holding him back from having great matches instead of just very good matches. Perhaps a few weeks is rushing it a bit, but a month of good booking and solid ring work improvement could do the trick for Christian now.



Lloyd: When I met Mary, I got that old fashioned romantic feeling, where I'd do anything to bone her.
Harry: That's a special feeling.

"Jericho tries for the Walls of Jericho early on, but it is blocked by mysterious rays from Shawn Michaels while a message on the Titantron says, 'This move is mine now.' "
-RAW Satire, 05.10.04
Greymarch
Boerewors








Since: 24.2.03
From: Toronto, Canada

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 7 hours
#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.18
    Originally posted by Boston Idol
    1) Triple H

    Still pushed as the most important star
    on the show, but still suffering from
    being stale and having no new rivals.
    Trip vs Shelton Benjamin was rushed,
    dropped faster than one could say
    "Jeff Hardy", and buried Monday night
    when Benjamin vanished during Shawn's
    run-in, leaving the long running soap
    opera between Trip and Shawn as the
    major storyline of the RAW brand.




Long decryed as keeping everyone else down so that he could keep a top position, he is still one of the most commanding presences (along with Benoit) left on the roster.
Since he's been constantly winning for years, any victory against him looks far more important. The reaction of people in the audience at Wrestlemania was awesome. Peopleweren't just cheering for *Benoit* to win, they were hoping for *Triple H* to tap as well.
As such, all of Benjamin's wins have seemed strong. Even if they were via "screwy" methods, he has almost always had some negative circumstance involved (Evolution present, Shawn Michales interference). If Mick Foley can't fend for himself against Evolution (minus HHH), why should Benjamin.
I admit, I would have prefered to have a Benjamin interview after the match, but the lack of one does not mean BURIED.
Ahem. As you may tell from my Avatar, I'm a HHH Fan, and now it seems like his giving a little back. There isn't always a conspiracy everywhere.


    2) Shawn Michaels

    Shawn's sexy boy gimmick is starting
    to look pretty creepy, like a middle
    aged man chasing chicken, but he got
    a good rating in a decent match with
    Benoit and Trip sees him as a great
    way to keep everyone else down, so
    he can continue to live his fantasy.




I agree that he seems kind of creepy. He reminds me of an uncle that thinks his pretty cool and funny, but isn't.
He needs to turn heel and feud with new people that aren't involved with HHH at all.


    3) Chris Benoit

    Stuck as the third wheel to Trip and
    Shawn until he's sent hurdling back
    into the midcard mix... or SmackDown!
    Caught a break drawing a disappointing
    number against Shawn that looked a lot
    better a week later, but still destined
    to return to a midcard enhancement role.




Benoit was always had an image of being strong. The fans have always respected that and now it seems WWE is too. He doesn't need to be involved in interview and encounter after encounter to make a story. His presence immediatly makes an event important now.
Mix that with the way the WWE Hype-Machine has gotten behind him and barring injury I think he's going to have a good run.


    4) Chris Jericho

    After finally ending his long running
    feud with Tatanka*, er, Christian, he
    actually mentioned the WWE title on
    RAW, hinting that he may yet have more
    than midcard heavy metal aspirations.
    Unfortunately he needs to be built up
    after getting caught in the quagmire
    with Christian for so long. Could be
    the next "legend" to fall to Orton.




Jericho reminds me in some ways of the Dudleys and RVD. Really cool and novel at first, but maybe it's just the moveset, but it's gotten stale. He's okay when he talks, but even that's becoming Rock-like formulaic, and as good as he is on the mic, he's no Rock.
Fighting Christian hasn't helped his image either, but he needs to shake something up. I'm not sure how.


    5) Randy Orton

    Heavily protected in tags and short
    matches, but still not ready for the
    big matches. Orton made several gaffes
    against Edge and his moveset is still
    a work in progress, including the worst
    assortment of "restholds" in many years.




I actually find myself enjoying Orton's restholds. I think mainly it's because he always has a facial expression that seems to give a reason and some more believability behind the move rather than the obvious breat catcher.
He shouldn't have been so rushed, but he was. So now we can either keep complaining about what happened, or we can accept it and move on.
I'd rather see him fight Shawn Michaels or even Kane for awhile before he starts up on Benjamin or Edge. He still needs a bit of polish on his moves, but his character is down.


    6) Edge

    Returned from injury and was given the
    task of carrying and putting over Lex
    Orton. Edge looked pretty good, despite
    some laughers from Orton, but his value
    will depend on where he goes from there.
    He should be pushed higher while Orton
    should be protected until he's ready.




I always like Christian better, but Edge seems to fit into the ME picture much easier than he does, Perhaps it's the "look" but I can buy him easier.
He really needs a reason, or a backstory for what he's doing though. It seems like WWE is relying on the audience to remember all of Edge's past events from a year ago, when they ordinarily don't seem to trust the audience to remember what happened before the break.
A feud with Christian would help since they have so much backstory. It boggles my mind that these two "brothers" haven't even said anything to each other since Edge showed up!


    7) Kane

    One week he abducts Lita. The next
    week he abducts Val Venis. Where's
    Ross with the "switch hitter" jokes?




It was looking sooo good when he lost the mask. But unfortunatley the WWE has completley dropped the ball with it. What happended to him thinking he was covered in scars? So why doesn't he cover his torso anymore? But still wears a towel sometimes? WTF?


    8) Batista

    Batista is working hard and doing
    what he is told to do. Fans gulled
    by Orton's singles push, looks, and
    feud with Foley aren't giving Batista
    enough credit, but he's better off
    going unnoticed while riding in the
    wake of Triple H's faux Horsemen.




I agree with this. While HHH and Orton are taking all the flak, Batista is able to steadily improve and learn from Flair. I dig the way he gets up so quick after a powerbomb.


    9) Eugene

    Hillbilly Jim, Norman the Lunatic,
    Doink, and Zach Gowen. Did any of
    them become more than a short term
    midcard novelty act? At best Eugene
    is a singles version of Too Cool that
    can be used to heat up the next Rikishi,
    that being whoever takes Eugene aside
    and explains how Regal is using him.




This whole Eugene thing is awesome, but it does have a limited scope. We can only watch it for so long. But I'm prepared to enjoy the ride.


    10) Ric Flair

    Ric Flair is embarrassing himself and
    his legacy, but at least he's doing it
    on a big stage rather than working
    indy shows like Terry Funk or Misawa.
    Just think of Flair as "our Giant Baba."




Flair needs to stop wrestling and just manage Batista and do cheap shots in Evolution matches.
Although the Evolution vs Rock & Sock was pretty fun... so keep him managing every once and a while, and just break out the crazy old man every once and awhile.


    11) WWE Divas

    They better hope Vince watches RAW
    instead of NBC's "The Restaurant",
    because the girl who got fired on
    Monday looked much better than all
    of them except Stacy and she would
    probably be willing to "play ball."




That's pretty much a personal opinion.
Victoria and Molly have both lost a ton of steam.
Lita's just horrible, and Stacy has no business wrestling.
Looks like Trish, Jazz and the now pushed Gail Kim are it.


    12) Eric Bischoff

    The best Jack Tunney ever, if you
    don't count Vince McMahon, and lucky
    to be marking time on Trip's show
    which will always be the stronger
    of the two "brands" in the WWE.




Eric is awesome. One of my non-wrestling-watching friends says Bischoff's his "hero" whenever he hears him speak.


    13) Christian

    The success of Eugene's character makes
    the failure of guys like Christian more
    obvious. Fans are more into Trish.




As I mentioned in the Edge section, I like Christian, but he carries the taint of the midcard with him. He'd have to do something really special to move up.


    14) Shelton Benjamin

    Disappeared May 10, 2004. Got pushed
    way too soon and was badly exposed.
    His moveset, which should have been
    developed and refined at OVW and in
    months of tag matches, was still a
    work in progress and he was still
    blowing simple spots like a firemans
    carry by taking people over using
    their right arm and then obviously
    switching over to bar the left arm.
    In the end, TWGTT may go down as
    little more than a parody of ECW
    hyped teams like the Eliminators.

    Frank


Well, let's give him some more time. He's gotten a pretty good push so far, and one MIA isn't enough to completley destroy your career (see HHH vs Goldberg feud).
But damn, get some new music.




"Boy, I've crippled more people than Polio!"
Boston Idol
Blutwurst








Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2869 days
Last activity: 2662 days
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Craigerson posted:

> Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here
> but when was it EVER set up that
> Benoit didn't want to face Shawn?

Misunderstanding. It was shown that
Trip didn't want to face Shawn, hence
the decision to save Benoit's title
by stopping Shawn from beating him.

"Don't throw me in that Shawn-patch."
- Brer Trip

Of course the reality is that Trip
wants to keep working with his buddy
Shawn, but to try to build heat for
the umpteenth rematch they needed to
make Benoit look like a chump and
make Shelton Benjamin disappear.

> People getting screwed in title shots
> setting up a match has been happening
> since I was a little kid watching
> wrestling.

Remember Saturday Night's Main Event
when Hercules had Steamboat up in the
backbreaker and heel Randy Savage ran
in to save Steamboat's title?

> Suddenly Triple H does it and he's
> putting himself over everyone else
> and dancing on the glass celing.

Set aside Trip if he confuses you.

Who looked good in the SNME example?

1) Savage, who made the save on Herc

2) Herc, who had the champ beat

3) Steamboat, who needed to be saved

It sure as heck wasn't #3, which is
the role Benoit was playing last week.

> I'm sure it went down like this...

> Triple H: I'm going to do the run in,
> keep that fucking camera off of Benjamin!!!

Actually it was more like this...

Triple H: Okay, Shawn is going to do
the run-in, so Shelton, you have to
go around behind the cameraman so
that viewers don't see you running
away like a scalded dog. Someone
remind the cameraman that he needs
to step forward and get a real tight
shot on me and Shawn so that nobody
thinks Shelton is chickenshit, okay?

I imagine Trip using "okay" a lot,
but purely in a rhetorical sense.

> He lost at WrestleManiaXX, won at
> Backlash, cage match was essentially
> the rubber match. I'm sure I'm missing
> a Raw match or two in here...

I think you are missing an obvious one
where they went right back to the feud
as if they were trying to burn it out
in the ring as soon as possible.

> but I like that they are going back
> to do actual multi-month feuds. But
> that's just my own personal preference.
> We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.

I like multi-match feuds if there is a
point to them other than sidedraining
someone who might be a threat to Trip.
I don't like rolling out a rematch the
night after a PPV and if this feud
mattered they wouldn't have given away
the blowoff on free TV.

> And another personal preference here,
> "perrenial midcarder" or not I've always
> found Christian pretty damn entertaining.

Entertaining midcarders are great. Tajiri
is often entertaining, but I never confuse
that with him getting a main event push.

> Triple H is holding everyone down!
> Christian is getting elevated? But he's
> a midcarder?! Hypocracy much?

Christian lost the blowoff match. That
doesn't sound like "elevation" to me.
Also it looked like Christian could be
headed for a Christian/Trish vs Matt/Lita
feud where Christian and Matt will be
deck chairs next to more popular partners.

But maybe I'm wrong. Let's see where
Christian goes after getting the rub
by losing a feud with Chris "I haven't
smelled a main event in months" Jericho.

My bet is that Christian got "elevated"
by Jericho the same way Hurricane got
"elevated" by the Rock, but we'll see.

> RE: the Divas. Dude, I said decent,
> not **** OMG classics.

Looking at feedback around the web, most
fans seem to think the Divas segments
were a complete waste of time and their
match was uninspired crap. That opinion
comes from folks giving the overall show
high marks, too, so you can't dismiss
them as merely being cynical.

: I'd rather have that than bimbos like
: Stacy and Torrie rolling around tugging
: at each other's hair, no matter how hot
: they are.

I'd rather get my cheesecake elsewhere,
but if the WWE needs TNA they should
give the Divas valet roles and cut the
pretense of putting them in the ring.

: Honestly Idol, I'm trying not to seem
: like I'm knocking every opinion of yours,
: its people's inability to just try to
: enjoy the shows that's starting to wear
: on me as a fan who surfs the net.

I was pleasantly surprised by Edge's
performance against Orton, and by some
of Orton's bumps, and by Batista taking
some moves for Tajiri, though I doubt
they are going to do anything worthwhile
with Tajiri to justify having a "monster"
take offense from him. I was looking
forward to seeing more from Orton but
didn't get it, plus he goofed up twice.
I was looking forward to seeing more
from Benjamin, if for no other reason
than he's a new face as a single, but
he vanished into thin air. I was hoping
not to see a reprise of Shawn vs Trip,
not that I've liked many of Shawn's
other feuds. Eugene was effective, but
experience tells me the novelty will
wear off faster than Doink's face paint.

: Everyone acts like the WWE owes you a
: good product catered to each person's
: individual tastes.

Check those ratings again, the crappy
ones that people accuse me of ignoring.
Forget me... attendence at house shows
speaks louder than I do. Forget me...
pay-per-view buyrates speak louder than
I do. Forget me... I was part of the
shrinking crowd that actually watched
RAW instead of something else this week.

It's not about me, so let's cut the gas.

: They run a business and can do it any
: damn way they please.

Sure, and since I'm just a fan I can
congratulate, complain, or do whatever
I please, including turning them off.

They owe me nothing. I owe them nothing.
If they want my viewership, they need to
deliver a better product. The car wreck
of dropped pushes, exposed workers, and
tired feuds being recycled won't keep my
attention forever. I love pro wrestling,
but I've got plenty of it on videotape.

Frank
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3262 days
Last activity: 3262 days
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
Quick, name 3 things you liked about RAW this week and last week?

I find the negativity (even if its somewhat accurate yet overly cynical) to be easier to take for most people if you sprinkle in some positive thoughts.



"Each race determines for itself what indecencies are. Nature knows no indecencies; man invents them." - Mark Twain
Boston Idol
Blutwurst








Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2869 days
Last activity: 2662 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
> Quick, name 3 things you liked about RAW
> this week and last week?

I didn't see RAW last week, but let's look
at the positives this week.

1) Shelton Benjamin's wins over Trip weren't
totally forgotten - whoops! Scratch that.

No, no, I can find three, it's just that I
was actually looking forward to seeing the
next chapter of Shelton vs Trip rather than
another romance novel about Trip and Shawn.

1) Tajiri being used on TV

He's talented and far more deserving of air
time than choads like Test and Billy Gunn
who have taken years off our lives. I'm not
sure where the upside is, he's not going to
main event and probably can't even reach the
IC level, but he'd be a great TV challenger
for smaller champs like Benoit or Eddy, he
might be good in tags if paired with a big
monster, and he's enjoyable on a regular
basis as long as they don't call him "Jap"
or do lame skits in broken English. Most
of my neighbors in Cupertino were Asian,
none of them sounded like bad Charlie Chan.
Vince McMahon needs to stop living in the
nineties- the 1890's, when black people
were afraid of ghosts and whatnot.

Net positive?

2) Batista continuing to work hard

I hated Batista when he debuted, but he
works hard and takes plenty of offense
for his opponents, sometimes too much
to the point of looking like an also-ran
rather than the next franchise monster.
Batista bumping for Benoit is great,
Chris is the champ and needs to show
that he can handle big opponents, but
Batista bumping for Tajiri undercuts
the effectiveness of that by putting
Tajiri on the same plane with Benoit.

Think about it. People can't be
elevated without a ladder and you
can't make a ladder when all the
rungs are at the same level. I'm
not suggesting Batista for a title,
just saying that making him look
stronger against undercard guys would
make his bumps for featured stars
mean that much more.

3) Edge brings focused offense

I thought Edge did a nice job of
bringing a bunch of spots without
losing focus on Orton's back and
without the match looking like a
spot-a-thon.

4) Edge and Orton pacing

Edge and Orton also divided their
match into long runs of control for
each man which made the counters
more significant than the old
"your turn, my turn" that had
taken over the promotion. Orton
didn't have enough stuff to fill
his longer turns, but that's better
than throwing in a pile of missed
lariats just to "keep things moving."

5) Orton's bumping

Orton took some nice bumps which
helped make Edge's offense look
good. The attempted nothing into
the jumping powerbomb was a bit
too obvious and way too dangerous,
but clearly Orton is putting his
body on the line to try to put on
a show. The bump off the apron
for the pedestrian spear to the
back made that move more meaningful
as well. No one should confuse
Orton with Barry Windham circa
1986, but Orton doesn't have that
much experience yet, either.
I hope he doesn't get concussed
taking a powerbomb wrong and I
hope he works on his offense so
that he can fill time better, but
I do see plenty of potential.

I do marvel when his mistakes are
blamed on others though. That's
a dead giveaway of blind fanboys.

6) Eugene works

Eugene (the character) has no main
event potential and probably won't
hold interest in the midcard for
very long, but Dinsmore and Regal
did well and the segment worked.
Segments that work are always a
positive next to segments with
Test, Scott Steiner, and Billy
Gunn, but let's not confuse Eugene
with an impact star. At best he
keeps the gimmick going for a few
years like the Bushwackers, who
sadly could probably still draw
more crowd response than most of
the tag teams in the WWE today.

7) Jericho mentions the World title

Hard to believe that Chris Jericho,
faux rocker and talk show host, was
once the first "undisputed" World
Champion with victories over Rock
and Austin on his resume. Jericho
has been slumming ever since, a
little nonsense with Nash here,
replacing Edge as Christian's
partner there, etc. Finally he's
making noise like someone who wants
to be a main eventer again and finally
he's dispatched Christian, who would
have been a mere speed bump for Trip,
Rock, Austin, Goldberg, and anyone
fans saw as a real main eventer.

Mentioning the title was a good first
step. Hopefully Jericho will continue
to climb the ladder because we need
someone besides Shawn and Trip to
challenge Benoit if Chris survives
as champion past the next PPV.

There you go, seven legitimate
positives. Don't take my caveats
as a backhanded attempt to spin
them into negatives. Just as you
see too many negatives on the net,
I see too much optomism, like those
people on this site who gushed about
how Hurricane was being elevated.

Frank

(Edit: As pointed out earlier, EB's
ability to pull off the tired role of
GM and read the goofy scripts he is
given with style is also a positive.)

(edited by Boston Idol on 13.5.04 1500)
Craigerson
Cotechino








Since: 4.8.03
From: Maryland

Since last post: 3057 days
Last activity: 3055 days
AIM:  
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.54
"There isn't always a conspiracy everywhere."

Amen.

"Of course the reality is that Trip
wants to keep working with his buddy
Shawn, but to try to build heat for
the umpteenth rematch they needed to
make Benoit look like a chump and
make Shelton Benjamin disappear."

I'll get off the Triple H Politics discussion because we obviously have differing views that neither will budge from, which is fine. But when Shelton Benjamin has disappeared off the Raw Brand, remind me and I'll concede you're right. I'm just not buying it based on your examples.

"Remember Saturday Night's Main Event
when Hercules had Steamboat up in the
backbreaker and heel Randy Savage ran
in to save Steamboat's title?"

Yes, but I don't think this is the same thing. Wouldn't Savage's motivation be to save Steamboat's title because he wanted a rematch with Steamboat, not a feud with Hercules. It's also a pretty bad example because Steamboat was buried pretty badly shortly after this when he lost the IC Title to the Honky Tonk Man. I don't think the 2004 version of this analogy is leading to Benoit dropping the title to [insert gimmicky midcarder here].

"Christian lost the blowoff match. That
doesn't sound like "elevation" to me."

"My bet is that Christian got "elevated"
by Jericho the same way Hurricane got
"elevated" by the Rock, but we'll see"

The comment this was responding to was more of a comment on the IWC hypocracy sometimes, not entirely directed at you.
Elevation was a bad choice of words. Can we agree he's been getting a push then? He has a body guard and a valet and gets prominent air time and a Main Event Slot on Raw. If Jericho was struggling like this with Val Venis, then yes its a big problem, he's being held down. I'd like to see Jericho at the top of the card as much as you. I loved his run as Undisputed Champ until, Trips and Stephy ruined it. I've also always found Christian to be pretty credible and I would buy him in a Upper Mid Card-to Main Event Slot, he gets decent heat. In my opinion its a pretty high profile feud. Personal opinion, and nothing more.

"Looking at feedback around the web, most
fans seem to think the Divas segments
were a complete waste of time and their
match was uninspired crap."

When talking about the Divas segments, its all just my opinion. I don't base my opinion on what everyone else thinks, I generally enjoy the Women's segments on Raw. This week sucked...yes.

This is the last of me on this subject...because I fear we're running in circles... Good discussing this with ya I dol.

"Quick, name 3 things you liked about RAW this week and last week?"

This Week
1)Batista's counter to the Green Mist
2)Eugene
3)The Cage Match

Last Week
1)6-Man Tag
2)Triple H Water Bottle
3)HBK busting out the Liontamer (While it pisses me off that Jericho can't, it was still pretty cool to see it)


(edited by Craigerson on 13.5.04 1555)
Boston Idol
Blutwurst








Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2869 days
Last activity: 2662 days
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
>> Remember Saturday Night's Main Event
>> when Hercules had Steamboat up in the
>> backbreaker and heel Randy Savage ran
>> in to save Steamboat's title?

> Yes, but I don't think this is the same
> thing. Wouldn't Savage's motivation be
> to save Steamboat's title because he
> wanted a rematch with Steamboat, not a
> feud with Hercules.

Right, which made Steamboat look weak,
the "easier pickings" in Savage's view.

And the finish of Shawn vs Benoit made
it _look_ like Trip wanted to face Benoit
rather than Shawn, which since Trip is a
heel was an attempt to make the fans at
home want to see Trip vs Shawn, which is
what the man who plays Trip on TV wanted
as his matchup all along, regardless of
what his character did in a storyline.

Is that any clearer?

Trip is smart. His angles make sense and
the collateral damage to those he works
with almost seems accidental, like Benoit
being made to look weak to help promote
the "necessary" Trip vs Shawn matchup.

Of course one could ask why the WWE is
going back to Trip vs Shawn so soon
rather than Benoit vs Shawn with Trip
sidedraining the way he has sidedrained
people like Jericho over the years.

I think we know the answer there.

> It's also a pretty bad example because
> Steamboat was buried pretty badly shortly
> after this when he lost the IC Title to
> the Honky Tonk Man. I don't think the
> 2004 version of this analogy is leading
> to Benoit dropping the title to [insert
> gimmicky midcarder here].

I hope you are right about that. Certain
people didn't want Steamboat, who was then
one of the best workers in the company, to
succeed as a main eventer. That, and the
crappy "former champ runs in to save the
apparently easier to beat current champ"
angle are the obvious parallels. I too
hope Benoit has better luck than Steamboat.

*****

In response to an earlier inquiry about a
source on Orton vs Benjamin drawing boos,
here is the link to that RAW show report.

http://www.pwtorch.com/ artman/publish/article_7864.shtml

If you check all the RAW show reports it
looks like the WWE quickly shifted from
this twenty minute draw to five minute
sprints where Orton won with feet on the
ropes or outside help. It's pretty clear
that the promotion is now trying to hide
the limitations of this matchup after they
badly overexposed them in early April.
That also coincides with Benjamin getting
less attention on TV, so it looks like he
is being blamed for the poor response.

But we'll see what happens in coming weeks.

Frank
Nenz
Fifty Millionth Hit








Since: 7.5.03

Since last post: 1023 days
Last activity: 4 days
#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.99
    Originally posted by Boston Idol
    Right, which made Steamboat look weak, the "easier pickings" in Savage's view.
    And the finish of Shawn vs Benoit made it _look_ like Trip wanted to face Benoit rather than Shawn, which since Trip is a heel was an attempt to make the fans at home want to see Trip vs Shawn, which is what the man who plays Trip on TV wanted as his matchup all along, regardless of what his character did in a storyline.
    Is that any clearer

No, HHH interfered in the match because Shawn had been given his match. His mentality was that since Shawn had been given his match he was going to ruin the match. That was how it was played out by JR. He's not stopping Shawn from winning because he wants to face Benoit more than Shawn, he did it because he is being dickish heel and ruining the match that he thought should have been his.

And Savage saved Steamboat not because he is "easier pickings", but because he was the man that beat him, so Savage wants to get his revenge and beat him.
knightvibe
Salami








Since: 12.7.03
From: st louis, missouri

Since last post: 3572 days
Last activity: 3571 days
#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.86
(deleted by CRZ on 13.5.04 2029)
Joe E. Nitro
Salami








Since: 4.2.04

Since last post: 3630 days
Last activity: 1111 days
#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.76

    3) Chris Benoit

    Stuck as the third wheel to Trip and
    Shawn until he's sent hurdling back
    into the midcard mix... or SmackDown!
    Caught a break drawing a disappointing
    number against Shawn that looked a lot
    better a week later, but still destined
    to return to a midcard enhancement role.


I'm amazed the WWE machine has stayed behind him for this long, but then again having Benoit look strong only makes whoever beats him look stronger. If you are looking for a long title run or even multiple title runs from Benoit snap out of it, you will only disappoint yourself down the road. Benoit is going to be Triple H's Ronnie Garvin except a more talented and over version. Barring major injury to a few top stars Benoit will never be in this place again, so enjoy it now.







(edited by Joe E. Nitro on 13.5.04 2229)
Nenz
Fifty Millionth Hit








Since: 7.5.03

Since last post: 1023 days
Last activity: 4 days
#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.98
    Originally posted by Joe E. Nitro

      3) Chris Benoit

      Stuck as the third wheel to Trip and
      Shawn until he's sent hurdling back
      into the midcard mix... or SmackDown!
      Caught a break drawing a disappointing
      number against Shawn that looked a lot
      better a week later, but still destined
      to return to a midcard enhancement role.


    I'm amazed the WWE machine has stayed behind him for this long, but then again having Benoit look strong only makes whoever beats him look stronger. If you are looking for a long title run or even multiple title runs from Benoit snap out of it, you will only disappoint yourself down the road. Benoit is going to be Triple H's Ronnie Garvin except a more talented and over version. Barring major injury to a few top stars Benoit will never be in this place again, so enjoy it now.


Ron Garvin won the title so he could lose to Flair at Starrcade. Benoit won the title at Wrestlemania. Why would they give Benoit the Rumble win (from the #1 entry) and Wrestlemania main event win, at what they billed to be the biggest Wrestlemania in history, if they only wanted Benoit to have a little title reign, drop the title back to Triple H, then be thrown back to the midcard.
SC
Potato korv








Since: 11.12.01
From: Valparaiso, IN

Since last post: 1327 days
Last activity: 661 days
AIM:  
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.85
    Originally posted by Nenz
    Ron Garvin won the title so he could lose to Flair at Starrcade. Benoit won the title at Wrestlemania.


Well - and I'm not making this argument because I don't know - the floating idea since he won was that he would lose it back to Triple H at Summerslam. Just because there's a longer turnaround doesn't mean it's not the same type of thing, you know?


    Why would they give Benoit the Rumble win (from the #1 entry) and Wrestlemania main event win, at what they billed to be the biggest Wrestlemania in history, if they only wanted Benoit to have a little title reign, drop the title back to Triple H, then be thrown back to the midcard.


Calling it the biggest WrestleMania in history was just so you'd buy it then. It really doesn't matter what legacy the results of that show leave because by now you already paid for it or you didn't. They gave him the Rumble win to build his credibility, they gave him the Mania win to reward him for his hard work/switch up the title scene/whatever. It also didn't hurt that Backlash was in Edmonton and they could have hoped for a strong buyrate and sellout crowd out of him going in there as champion.

If they get a strong title reign out of Benoit (which they have so far, in my opinion) then that's a bonus. If Benoit ever gets back to the tippy-top level then it's a bonus for him. As it is, I take this as a nice gesture to a guy who's earned it and not a lot more, but that doesn't mean I'm not enjoying it. I'm just not going to go nuts when he drops the title and then puts over guys like Orton and Batista or something, because he's almost 40 and using whatever rub he can give out of being a former world champion is probably a good idea. He's good enough to be thrust right back into the main event picture at any time in the next couple years, too.



scottcom
cubs.org

Nenz
Fifty Millionth Hit








Since: 7.5.03

Since last post: 1023 days
Last activity: 4 days
#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.13
    Originally posted by ScottieKStones
      Originally posted by Nenz
      Ron Garvin won the title so he could lose to Flair at Starrcade. Benoit won the title at Wrestlemania.


    Well - and I'm not making this argument because I don't know - the floating idea since he won was that he would lose it back to Triple H at Summerslam. Just because there's a longer turnaround doesn't mean it's not the same type of thing, you know?.

I'm just saying that Ron Garvin won the title so he could lose it at the biggest event of the year, whereas Benoit won at the biggest event of the year. Even if he is losing it at Summerslam Benoit's situation is not particularly similar to Garvin's. And even if he does lose it at Summerslam that is quite a good title run in these days. I think that it would be longest non-Triple H title reign since Austin in 2001.

    Originally posted by ScottieKStones


    Originally posted by Nenz

      Why would they give Benoit the Rumble win (from the #1 entry) and Wrestlemania main event win, at what they billed to be the biggest Wrestlemania in history, if they only wanted Benoit to have a little title reign, drop the title back to Triple H, then be thrown back to the midcard.


    Calling it the biggest WrestleMania in history was just so you'd buy it then. It really doesn't matter what legacy the results of that show leave because by now you already paid for it or you didn't. They gave him the Rumble win to build his credibility, they gave him the Mania win to reward him for his hard work/switch up the title scene/whatever. It also didn't hurt that Backlash was in Edmonton and they could have hoped for a strong buyrate and sellout crowd out of him going in there as champion.

    If they get a strong title reign out of Benoit (which they have so far, in my opinion) then that's a bonus. If Benoit ever gets back to the tippy-top level then it's a bonus for him. As it is, I take this as a nice gesture to a guy who's earned it and not a lot more, but that doesn't mean I'm not enjoying it. I'm just not going to go nuts when he drops the title and then puts over guys like Orton and Batista or something, because he's almost 40 and using whatever rub he can give out of being a former world champion is probably a good idea. He's good enough to be thrust right back into the main event picture at any time in the next couple years, too.


I know that they billed it as the biggest to get the buys, but they also had to put a card that could somewhat justify their hype. The WWE felt confident enough with Benoit to give him the main event win in an historic 20th Wrestlemania. They also pushed him much harder than they needed to if all they wanted was a placeholder World Champion. They gave him the Rumble win from the #1 spot, something that only Shawn Michaels has ever done, and he lasted longer than anyone has ever done. They could have given him the Rumble win from any entrant number and he would still have the credibility. I do agree with your assessment of what they will use him for after the title, but I expect to remain in the title picture until at least next year.
Boston Idol
Blutwurst








Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2869 days
Last activity: 2662 days
#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
> I do agree with your assessment of what
> they will use him for after the title,
> but I expect to remain in the title
> picture until at least next year.

If Benoit keeps the title and gets to
face fresh, well built up opponents
then he could remain in the picture.
If Trip or Shawn wins the title, they
would need fresh opponents too and
Benoit would not be fresh against
either of them. Someone needs to
move on so that the WWE can build
up fresh challengers like Jericho.

We'll see how it breaks.

Frank
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