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The W - Current Events & Politics - A little something I found on Bush (Page 2)
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Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Also, just because Bush is 'on vacation,' that doesn't mean he's lying on a beach somewhere sipping a Coke and listening to the Rangers game. I presume that a 'vacation' for any president means he operates from his actual home as opposed to Washington.

Wow, two posts in a row defending Bush. I must be ill.



"When this bogus term alternative rock was being thrown at every '70s retro rehash folk group, we were challenging people to new sonic ideas. If some little snotty anarchist with an Apple Mac and an attitude thinks he invented dance music and the big rock group is coming into his territory, [that's] ridiculous." - Bono, 1997
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    "I'm not crying out for imperialism, but on a personal level I feel more secure in a nation that is feared, call me arrogant are moribund, but i do. Lets not sugar coat the situation, because fear is a sure sign respect."

    Fear is not a sure sign of respect. At ALL. If that were the case, then Saddam Hussein should have had respect paid to him by his citizens, then the Nazis would have been the most respected political party. Fear is worth shit once people get some balls and stand up to somebody.

    On a basic level-and I'm not saying I agree with this, because I don't-you're equating the US's image to the rest of the world as a schoolyard bully. The kid who can punch the hardest and therefore deserves the most respect. Do you REALLY think that's all that great? is that what you want to tell your kids? "America is the best country in the world because everyone else is scared shitless of us"?

    Come on.


This would be a great reply, if the man in fact said any of these things. I think the crude analogy you're looking for is that no one is going to fuck with the toughest kid in the schoolyard.

However, reality doesn't conform to your absurd notions of being a "respectable" nation and clinging to the moral high ground. We can turn the other cheek and moralize all we want, but it's guns and bombs that are keeping the bad guys off our collective tail.



Cowboy Up!
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.23
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    However, reality doesn't conform to your absurd notions of being a "respectable" nation and clinging to the moral high ground. We can turn the other cheek and moralize all we want, but it's guns and bombs that are keeping the bad guys off our collective tail.


Funny, it didn't stop anyone a couple of years ago...

Superior firepower won't prevent an attack. It just changes the tactics.

There's nothing wrong with projecting an image of strength. But the people we're fighting don't care about that. They hate us because from their warped perspective we're evil. We're not just evil evil, we're (bad horror movie special effect and dramatic musical stinger) EVIL. All the guns and bombs in the world aren't going to stop a fanatic from strapping something explosive to himself and taking one last jog, unless we were to literally wipe out every single person on the planet who feels that way... then, of course, that'll make a lot of OTHER people will feel that way, so we'd have to kill them, too... and so on.

It's an extreme example, but the point is we're not going to intimidate these people into submission. If they're willing to blow themselves up to strike out at us, why would they care if we have superior firepower?



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
FurryHippie
Frankfurter








Since: 29.10.02
From: New York

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.41
    Originally posted by Nate The Snake
      Originally posted by PalpatineW
      We can turn the other cheek and moralize all we want, but it's guns and bombs that are keeping the bad guys off our collective tail.


    Funny, it didn't stop anyone a couple of years ago...

    Superior firepower won't prevent an attack. It just changes the tactics.


Sorry to revive a thread 2 days dead, but ah well....I'll agree somewhat that America's massive weaponry and army force the 'bad guys' to change their tactics when attacking, but it would be a pretty big oversight to say superior firepower won't prevent an attack. If America was 1/10 as powerful mililarily, I have a feeling there would be a lot more gung-ho attacks against us. Sure, terrorists are forced to get creative, but it's better than being as loaded up as say, Afghanistan, and being wide open for the whooping.
ThreepMe
Morcilla








Since: 15.2.02
From: Dallas

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.94
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
      Originally posted by ThreepMe
      And to be honest, all that vacation that he took up until 9/11 still pisses me off. Glad to know that he had such a great time while a massive communications error was happening that ended in over 3000 people being killed.

      Even if everything else was hunky-dory, that would be enough to never vote for him. Not even for school-crossing guard.

    So, if he wasn't on vacation, 9/11 would have been avoided? It's not like the entire government went on vacation w/ him.


Oh yes, let's take an extreme opposite to rebuke. That always makes sense...

Come on, you know what I meant.

It was to show that while he's living it up in Camp David there were massive communication errors going on. Not saying that 9/11 wouldn't have happened if he was actually, you know, working, but it may have.

If he was being more diligent in his job, 9/11 MAY have been stopped. Being Pro-active is better than being Reactive.

It's one thing to screw up while you are actually TRYING to do your job, it's another to screw up while you're taking ANOTHER vacation (how much vacation time did he take that first year?)

And to Big Bad: Yes, Camp David is a far cry from the beach, but it is also a far cry from being the Oval Office.



I would like to congatulate Al Snow on his contact with La-Z-Boy. Because we all know Al doesn't sell chairs. - Mick Foley




Make sure to check out ThreepMe's Website of Fun
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by ThreepMe
    Yes, Camp David is a far cry from the beach, but it is also a far cry from being the Oval Office.

You do realized Camp David is equipped with the same gizmos and capabilities that the White House, right?



OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.80
He doesn't usually go to Camp David. He goes to his "ranch" in Texas.



"The most important thing is for us to find Osama Bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until he find him."
-George W. Bush, September 13, 2001

"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
George W. Bush, March 13, 2002
Scott Summets
Sujuk








Since: 27.6.02

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.53
    Originally posted by ThreepMe
      Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
        Originally posted by ThreepMe
        And to be honest, all that vacation that he took up until 9/11 still pisses me off. Glad to know that he had such a great time while a massive communications error was happening that ended in over 3000 people being killed.

        Even if everything else was hunky-dory, that would be enough to never vote for him. Not even for school-crossing guard.

      So, if he wasn't on vacation, 9/11 would have been avoided? It's not like the entire government went on vacation w/ him.


    Oh yes, let's take an extreme opposite to rebuke. That always makes sense...

    Come on, you know what I meant.

    It was to show that while he's living it up in Camp David there were massive communication errors going on. Not saying that 9/11 wouldn't have happened if he was actually, you know, working, but it may have.

    If he was being more diligent in his job, 9/11 MAY have been stopped. Being Pro-active is better than being Reactive.

    It's one thing to screw up while you are actually TRYING to do your job, it's another to screw up while you're taking ANOTHER vacation (how much vacation time did he take that first year?)

    And to Big Bad: Yes, Camp David is a far cry from the beach, but it is also a far cry from being the Oval Office.


Techincally if you want to blame 9/11 on any president.... you can't. It's no one and everyone's fault from WW 1 up.



"I wear it for the thousands who have died, believen' that the Lord was on their side. I wear it for another hundred thousand who have died, believen' that we all were on their side." RIP Johnny Cash



Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Incidentally, was that a Kennedy praising the war, if not all of the machinations in getting there?



ThreepMe
Morcilla








Since: 15.2.02
From: Dallas

Since last post: 3759 days
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.94
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by ThreepMe
      Yes, Camp David is a far cry from the beach, but it is also a far cry from being the Oval Office.

    You do realized Camp David is equipped with the same gizmos and capabilities that the White House, right?


Yes I do, and I still stand by my statement...

I understand that the President has access to all his presidential toys at all times, but it's one thing to be at work and another to telecommute from either his lush Ranch or posh Camp David.



I would like to congatulate Al Snow on his contact with La-Z-Boy. Because we all know Al doesn't sell chairs. - Mick Foley




Make sure to check out ThreepMe's Website of Fun
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
    Originally posted by ThreepMe
    Oh yes, let's take an extreme opposite to rebuke. That always makes sense...

    Come on, you know what I meant.

    It was to show that while he's living it up in Camp David there were massive communication errors going on. Not saying that 9/11 wouldn't have happened if he was actually, you know, working, but it may have.

    If he was being more diligent in his job, 9/11 MAY have been stopped. Being Pro-active is better than being Reactive.

    It's one thing to screw up while you are actually TRYING to do your job, it's another to screw up while you're taking ANOTHER vacation (how much vacation time did he take that first year?)

I *do* know exactly what you meant, as evidenced by your response.

If our security forces had an idea something big was going down, Bush would have been notified immediately & been on his way back to DC. You're giving the impression you think Bush personally conducts surveillance, and that if he goes on vacation, nobody else takes over. Or that Bush said "Massive communication errors? Possible large scale enemy attack? Thousands projected to be killed? Well, keep an eye on that, I'll be vacationing." Bottom line, 9/11 would have still happened whether Bush was in DC or on vacation.



Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1327 days
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    If our security forces had an idea something big was going down, Bush would have been notified immediately & been on his way back to DC.

Not true. The plan put in place was one drawn up in the days of a likely nuclear attack. With the potential for planes to keep falling from the sky, there was no chance the Secret Service would let him return to DC until they knew it was safe, hence the trips to air bases in Louisiana and Nebraska. Louisiana was a safe base, Nebraska was conveniently located near a grounded "Looking Glass" plane.

The Secret Service was in charge of the security operations. Had he wanted to the President could've overridden him. But generally it's a good idea to defer to the experts who wargame these situations.



Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
I was talking more of a case where we knew *something* was being planned, but we didn't know the exact details (what? when? or where?). Obviously, if we knew planes were going to be crashed into various locations, then yeah, Bush wouldn't head back to the White House.



ThreepMe
Morcilla








Since: 15.2.02
From: Dallas

Since last post: 3759 days
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.94
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    You're giving the impression you think Bush personally conducts surveillance, and that if he goes on vacation, nobody else takes over. Or that Bush said "Massive communication errors? Possible large scale enemy attack? Thousands projected to be killed?...


Actually, no, I never said anyting of the like, nor insinuated such a thing.

That's just the impression that YOU are getting.

What I'm saying is: that if Bush was more "on the ball" then he might have noticed (himself or through a special council, etc) that agencies were not talking properly, then he could have taken action (either himself or one of his cabinet memebers, etc) to rectify the problem. And if that was the case, then maybe he could have prevented it.

Oh, it's not Bush's fault that 9/11 happened (or any President for that matter). I'm just saying that if he was not on vacation so damn much during his first year, then MAYBE (please note the MAYBE part) he could have noticed the communication gap that didn't allow us to figure out that was going to happen.

I'm not faulting him for what happened, I'm faulting him for what didn't happen.



I would like to congatulate Al Snow on his contact with La-Z-Boy. Because we all know Al doesn't sell chairs. - Mick Foley




Make sure to check out ThreepMe's Website of Fun
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1327 days
Last activity: 1124 days
#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by ThreepMe
    Oh, it's not Bush's fault that 9/11 happened (or any President for that matter). I'm just saying that if he was not on vacation so damn much during his first year, then MAYBE (please note the MAYBE part) he could have noticed the communication gap that didn't allow us to figure out that was going to happen.

    I'm not faulting him for what happened, I'm faulting him for what didn't happen.

Your hatred of Bush is clouding your judgment on this. How exaclty can Bush be blamed for a communication gap that obviously had to exist before 1/20/01. Things like that don't spontatenously generate. That's like blaming the embassy bombings of Clinton because he was getting head from intents all the time. There is no corrolation.

(edited by Grimis on 29.9.03 1436)


ThreepMe
Morcilla








Since: 15.2.02
From: Dallas

Since last post: 3759 days
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.94
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by ThreepMe
      Oh, it's not Bush's fault that 9/11 happened (or any President for that matter). I'm just saying that if he was not on vacation so damn much during his first year, then MAYBE (please note the MAYBE part) he could have noticed the communication gap that didn't allow us to figure out that was going to happen.

      I'm not faulting him for what happened, I'm faulting him for what didn't happen.

    Your hatred of Bush is clouding your judgment on this. How exaclty can Bush be blamed for a communication gap that obviously had to exist before 1/20/01. Things like that don't spontatenously generate. That's like blaming the embassy bombings of Clinton because he was getting head from intents all the time. There is no corrolation.

    (edited by Grimis on 29.9.03 1436)


The corrolation is: IF he wasn't so busy taking vacations then he MIGHT have noticed any Clinton legacy problems (i.e. communications gap).

It could be more difficult to notice security flaws from Camp David or from Bush Ranch.

And you're right, they don't spontatenously generate. That why I said he should be pro-active instead of reactive.

And I'm not blaming him for what was there when he took helm, I'm blaming him for doing NOTHING while these issues just sat there.

Well, maybe not "nothing." I mean, vacationing is a far cry from "nothing."

In a nut shell, he should have been spending more time trying to improve this country instead of improving his golf swing.

What makes me hate him is that it took 9/11 to get him to stop taking vacations.



I would like to congatulate Al Snow on his contact with La-Z-Boy. Because we all know Al doesn't sell chairs. - Mick Foley




Make sure to check out ThreepMe's Website of Fun
Nate The Snake
Liverwurst








Since: 9.1.02
From: Wichita, Ks

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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.24
    Originally posted by FurryHippie
    Sorry to revive a thread 2 days dead, but ah well....I'll agree somewhat that America's massive weaponry and army force the 'bad guys' to change their tactics when attacking, but it would be a pretty big oversight to say superior firepower won't prevent an attack. If America was 1/10 as powerful mililarily, I have a feeling there would be a lot more gung-ho attacks against us. Sure, terrorists are forced to get creative, but it's better than being as loaded up as say, Afghanistan, and being wide open for the whooping.


And if you'll look back at the rest of my post, I said quite clearly that there was nothing wrong with putting forward the image of strength. Hell, the overpowering strength of our collective militaries kept the US and USSR from blowing up the world quite effectively. My point was and still is that the people we're currently at war with don't give a crap about that. Times have changed, as have the enemies.



Kansas-born and deeply ashamed
The last living La Parka Marka

"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.80
    Originally posted by ThreepMe
    What makes me hate him is that it took 9/11 to get him to stop taking vacations.


Nope, he took August of 2002 and 2003 off as well - the latter of which while this country was at war with Iraq. (I mean, sure, it was post "Mission Accomplished", but when seven or eight American troops are being killed by enemy fire a week while occupying a foreign nation, I tend to think of that as a country at war.)



"The most important thing is for us to find Osama Bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until he find him."
-George W. Bush, September 13, 2001

"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
George W. Bush, March 13, 2002
Nag
Landjager








Since: 10.1.03
From: Enter your city here

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Y!:
#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.99
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    is that what you want to tell your kids? "America is the best country in the world because everyone else is scared shitless of us"?

    Come on.


Do you mean in lieu of having to pack a gas mask next to their HI-C and ham sandwich every morning? If so, I would love to tell my kids that, if I ever choose to have any.

There are many small, unstable nations, that don't necessarily hate us because we are powerful, but hate us because of our way of life or hate us because their not. And it's really no secret that technology once only possessed by the big two are falling into their hands.

Despite the popular notion, these governments aren't going to sing Kumbyya with us the day after we invite them to Starbucks to discuss the latest episode of FRIENDS. If the cell phones are turned off maybe, but that's too much a psychological sacrifice in this day and age. An Eye for an Eye a tooth for a tooth. That's the way to approach these countries or organizations.

Now, spf does bring up some good points that to an extent I agree with. I do think to an extent you can separate fear and aggression, to be feared does not always mean to be a "Schoolyard bully" there can be, for lack of better words, a more passive connotation to fear.

I guess I can say I fear Jackie Chan or Kurt Angle because they would easily kick the shit out of me, though they have not physically provoked me, I wouldn't piss them off. I fear getting infected with HIV, so when I'm visiting my neighborhood brothel, I always pack my trojan. If guns and bombs must be our global condom, so be it. If it means we leave a trail of skulls in our path, well that's life. Yeah, it don't bother me at all when I consider the alternatives.









I may be ugly, but your stupid, and I can get a job.
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.12
I find it funny, that in the age of computers and world wide global information, some people can only forumulate opinions based on what other people write and what other people feel. Furthermore I find it strange that people who hate person A Cannot ever find a single thing that Person A ever did that was good. Person A must be evil all the time, or the hatred is not allowable.

I didnt care for Clinton as a president. But, he did do a lot of things that got the nation in a better place IE eliminating most of Welfare and getting the economy strong.

I dont like a lot of things that Bush does economy wise, but I respect him for being able to do the job he has had since 9/11.

If you are a brainwashed "Republicans are BAD" type, thats sad for you. If you are a brainwashed "Democrats are BAD" type, it is said as well.

Too bad people cant judge things on a case by case basis.
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