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The W - Basketball - '92 vs. '12 Olympic teams
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JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.14
I'm having a hard time subscribing to the idea that the '92 Dream Team would have no problems with this incarnation, but I feel like I'm in the minority. I mean, who on the '92 team matches up with LeBron James or Kevin Durant? Similarly, minus Dwight Howard the '92 team has a huge edge in the middle with David Robinson and Patrick Ewing versus Tyson Chandler and (I guess) Kevin Love and Anthony Davis. But Robinson and Ewing weren't really *closers* who elevated their teams to higher levels, and with Michael Jordan would he really give them a chance to exploit their advantage in the middle? Could John Stockton deal with Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook? I just don't see a domination happening.

(As an aside, I simmed a seven-game series on Whatifsports between the two teams the other day and EXPECTED it to end up 4-0 for the original Dream Team, but it ended up going all seven and the '92 team won game 7 in OT.)



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Stefonics
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.81
But who are the 5 you put on the court to match up with Magic, Jordan, Bird, Barkley/Malone, and Ewing/Robinson when they roll with that lineup? Any one of those guys was capable of putting up 40 on any given night. And are they playing 1992 defense or 2012? 1992, it gets even worse for the Olympic squad. In a seven game series, I think the Dream Team wins 4-1 and three of those games are blowouts.

(edited by Stefonics on 17.7.12 1519)
lotjx
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.29
The 2012 squad has massive center issues even if you throw Lebron in there, I don't think he can handle Ewing or Robinson. If Dwight was going to play then maybe he could help, but still Ewing in the 90s was a beast.

You have to throw out Larry since his back was screwed up, still its Scotty Pippin out there with MJ. MJ could guard Durant or even Kobe. Pippin takes what is left over. I like Westbrook, but he is not Magic. Magic would just cut through whoever is guard him and either go for the easy lay up or pass it out to MJ for the jump shot. The power forwards, child please. Barkley would clothesline anyone who tried to come through his lane and Malone would be murder on the glass.

I am going with 4-0 sweep and the Dream Team winning by ten or more. There might be a close game, but you have Mr. Clutch I and II and III and IV on that team. Bird is coming off the bench, did I need to say more. And I have seen Ewing close series, hello Pacer fans.

(edited by lotjx on 17.7.12 1445)


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Since: 4.1.02
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.69
These are all good basketball-related reasons, but I really think the real reason Dream Team 92 wins is simply that Jordan in his prime wouldn't dare lose to the 2012 class. He simply wouldn't let it occur. Similarly, I also think LeBron goes into 'deer in the headlights, last game of Cavs/Celtics' mode if up against the sheer competitive willpower of Jordan, Magic, Bird, etc.



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BigDaddyLoco
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Chandler can match up with Ewing or Robinson just fine you just won't get any offense out of him, so I don't think the center position is the problem.

The 92 team would win however. Jordan and Pippen went around and thumped very good teams on their own, but add Magic, Barkley in his prime. Bird was toast by that point, but I don't even know if he would have been needed.

If the current team had the Kobe from 4 years ago this would be a lot closer.

RYDER FAKIN
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.62
I like 12 because they are younger and faster. 3/4 of the Dream Team could not get back on defense

Plus, the Dream Team played nobody. They were the impetus of Intenational Basketball, but no one at that time had to play a team, much less one with 3-4 NBA players on it

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Since: 2.1.02
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.25
Read it and weep, fella


TRUE FACTS: The '92 team didnt play anybody worth a damn in Barcelona.

    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    I like 12 because they are younger and faster. 3/4 of the Dream Team could not get back on defense.
I think '12 is younger & faster than '92, but the idea that '92 is old and slow is inaccurate.

We already agree that Bird was on his way out, I'll concede that Magic's prime was probably in the 80's but he was no slouch by any means in 1992, and Laettner was a college baby. The rest of those dudes RAN the 90's, so I dont get where this idea of the '92 team being old or past their prime comes from. Kobe suggested the same thing a week or so ago and I disagreed then too (dont tell him).





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JayJayDean
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.14
    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    I like 12 because they are younger and faster. 3/4 of the Dream Team could not get back on defense


I don't know if they could play lockdown D with Magic and Stockton at the point. Magic was never an elite defender and Stockton was one of the reasons Mark Eaton had so many chances to block shots. Westbrook and Paul would be matchup nightmares for those two, and since Michael and Scottie can only guard two guys that leaves Durant, LeBron, or (to a lesser extent) Kobe to take advantage of a defensive mismatch on Karl Malone (especially if it's Durant on the perimeter) or Sir Charles.

OTOH, with Magic and Michael running the offense the Dream Team would give the 2012 team serious fits on defense, and the guys like Iguodala and Davis who could really make a defense impact would really be offensive liabilities. (And you would have to think Chandler would be with Ewing or Robinson playing opposite.)

I think it would be a great match-up. I like the Dream Team to win, but it would be fascinating to watch Chuck Daly (RIP) and Coach K go at it with these squads.



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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.90
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    I'm having a hard time subscribing to the idea that the '92 Dream Team would have no problems with this incarnation, but I feel like I'm in the minority. I mean, who on the '92 team matches up with LeBron James or Kevin Durant?

Pippen.

I'd also like to add, to further accentuate what JJD said, the notion that the Dream Team guys would be too old is not just laughable, but Jordan, Barkley, Pippen, Malone, and probably a few other guys were in their athletic PRIME. Yeah it's nice to be 22yo, but it's pretty widely accepted that 27- and 28-year-old basketball players are at their physical peak. So yeah, forget that old guy nonsense.

(Dream Team in 4, all blowouts.)

- StingArmy
Whitebacon
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#10 Posted on
Click Here (chicagotribune.com) for a 1992 Strat-o-Matic sim'd five game victory.
TheBucsFan
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.61
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    Chandler can match up with Ewing or Robinson just fine


Surely this is a joke.

Anyway, Lebron James and Kevin Durant are great, no doubt, but I think this is some sort of time bias where anyone who doubts the '92 team would smoke the current guys are just forgetting how amazing Malone, Barkley, Stockton, Magic, Robinson and Ewing were. Every player minus Laettner is in the Hall of Fame for being amazing NBA players. I see two guys on the 2012 team that are currently Hall of Fame locks (James, Bryant), one guy who very likely will be but he's still way too young to say for sure (Durant), and then a bunch of other guys who would have to do a lot more than they have to be considered.

It's true that the Barcelona team faced nobody, but I don't think anybody is basing this prediction on the team's performance in the Olympics.

The 1992 team would absolutely destroy these guys.

EDIT: I do think that, with time, the "average athlete" gets better, so the overall level of play in the NBA today is better than it was 20 years ago. I think the NBA champions of today would crush the Celtics dynasty of the 1960s, if you could somehow magically transport that team from 1964 or whatever year into today. But I don't think the difference from 1992 to 2012 is great enough to overcome the huge, huge discrepancy in talent between these two teams.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 18.7.12 0411)
Reverend J Shaft
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Since: 25.6.03
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.52
I'm definitely in the minority here but I think the 2012 team would crush the 1992 Dream Team only because I think athletes are constantly becoming stronger, quicker, more agile and just more finely-tuned all around. And that makes me think that players in their mid- to late-20s today are definitively better than those players 20 years ago. I'd say this effect would be among the least pronounced in basketball but I still think LeBron & Co. could take Jordan & Co. anytime.

My belief extends to other sports in that regard, too. I think Mike Tyson would kick the holy hell out of Ali, Ted Williams would struggle to hit .200 against today's pitching and McEnroe/Connors/Borg/etc. wouldn't rank in the top 100 of tennis players had their primes been in this era. Just my opinion.
lotjx
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.29
    Originally posted by Reverend J Shaft
    I'm definitely in the minority here but I think the 2012 team would crush the 1992 Dream Team only because I think athletes are constantly becoming stronger, quicker, more agile and just more finely-tuned all around. And that makes me think that players in their mid- to late-20s today are definitively better than those players 20 years ago. I'd say this effect would be among the least pronounced in basketball but I still think LeBron & Co. could take Jordan & Co. anytime.

    My belief extends to other sports in that regard, too. I think Mike Tyson would kick the holy hell out of Ali, Ted Williams would struggle to hit .200 against today's pitching and McEnroe/Connors/Borg/etc. wouldn't rank in the top 100 of tennis players had their primes been in this era. Just my opinion.


I think not. Ali could take Tyson, beause is a smarter fighter. Tyson was all about instilling fear and then going to town on you for a quick one round knock out. You watch any Tyson fight past the third round, he usually loses. Ali created Rope a Dope. Williams probably couldn't bat .400 mainly due to the fact, he will be walked twice a game. He could still hit and hitting hasn't changed that much. Hell, his best days were probably when he was in WWII, so we have no idea how great he truly was. The tennis guys were mostly grinders and they could grind probably everyone expect maybe Feder. If anything McEnroe's antics would probably confuse the hell out of them and he would shake up their game plan. Which is why Johnny did a lot of screaming.

2012 Dream Team would get swept. Why? There is no real leader and while MJ and Magic might fight over it when it comes to crunch time Magic is going to pass the ball to Jordan who is going to sink it. Its the fallacy of every generation to think they are better than the last one. We think we are smarter than our parents, because we have the internet, I kinda doubt it. We know more, but we don't apply it. These guys have the will to apply their talent, I think most of the new generation just get by on talent. LeBron maybe chief among them. And I say that as a guy who is cheering for James.

(edited by lotjx on 18.7.12 0812)


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hansen9j
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Since: 7.11.02
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.59
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    I see two guys on the 1992 team that are currently Hall of Fame locks (Magic, Bird), one guy who very likely will be but he's still too young to say for sure (Jordan), and then a bunch of other guys who would have to do a lot more than they have to be considered.
That's the problem with looking at the past with full hindsight and not applying foresight to the future.



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TheBucsFan
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.61
    Originally posted by hansen9j
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      I see two guys on the 1992 team that are currently Hall of Fame locks (Magic, Bird), one guy who very likely will be but he's still too young to say for sure (Jordan), and then a bunch of other guys who would have to do a lot more than they have to be considered.
    That's the problem with looking at the past with full hindsight and not applying foresight to the future.


You're definitely right about that, but I think in 1992 most of the players on the Dream Team would have been pegged at the time as future Hall of Famers, or at least at the level where I put Durant in that they were playing at a Hall of Fame level but would need to continue it a few more years to really be considered "in." And I am also pretty confident that when their careers are all over, this Olympic team will not come close to matching the feat of the entire 1992 squad making the Hall of Fame. But only time will tell.
hansen9j
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Since: 7.11.02
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.59
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by hansen9j
        Originally posted by TheBucsFan
        I see two guys on the 1992 team that are currently Hall of Fame locks (Magic, Bird), one guy who very likely will be but he's still too young to say for sure (Jordan), and then a bunch of other guys who would have to do a lot more than they have to be considered.
      That's the problem with looking at the past with full hindsight and not applying foresight to the future.


    You're definitely right about that, but I think in 1992 most of the players on the Dream Team would have been pegged at the time as future Hall of Famers, or at least at the level where I put Durant in that they were playing at a Hall of Fame level but would need to continue it a few more years to really be considered "in." And I am also pretty confident that when their careers are all over, this Olympic team will not come close to matching the feat of the entire 1992 squad making the Hall of Fame. But only time will tell.
Well, remember that it's the Basketball Hall of Fame, not the NBA Hall of Fame. Chris Mullin didn't make the HOF because he was an all-time great NBA player; he made it because he was an *excellent* college player who had a very good pro career. Similarly, it may not be a slam dunk that someone like Carmelo Anthony would make an NBA Hall of Fame, his pro career plus his college title makes him a very likely inductee.



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JayJayDean
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.14
    Originally posted by StingArmy
      Originally posted by JayJayDean
      I'm having a hard time subscribing to the idea that the '92 Dream Team would have no problems with this incarnation, but I feel like I'm in the minority. I mean, who on the '92 team matches up with LeBron James or Kevin Durant?

    Pippen.


OK. Pippen guards them both, at the same time? I like 2012's chances in that case.

I still think most of 2012's chances come from point guard play, anyway. I'm not saying Chris Paul and Russ Westbrook are as good as Isiah Thomas, but they are at least close (Westbrook AT TIMES), and Magic had fits with Isiah on defense and Stockton couldn't stop him, so I'd see CP3 and Russ giving the Dream Team big problems.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
      Chandler can match up with Ewing or Robinson just fine


    Surely this is a joke.


I think Chandler would do OK, but if MJ let the team attack Chandler in the post and they could get hi tired and/or into foul trouble, the 2012 team would be pretty screwed because without Dwight Howard the next best center (as far as I can tell) is Kevin Love.

(edited by JayJayDean on 18.7.12 0816)


Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

*snip*

Revenge of the Sith = one thumb up from me. Fuck shit. I want to tittie fuck your ass.
-- The Guinness. to Cerebus
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.61
    Originally posted by hansen9j
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
        Originally posted by hansen9j
          Originally posted by TheBucsFan
          I see two guys on the 1992 team that are currently Hall of Fame locks (Magic, Bird), one guy who very likely will be but he's still too young to say for sure (Jordan), and then a bunch of other guys who would have to do a lot more than they have to be considered.
        That's the problem with looking at the past with full hindsight and not applying foresight to the future.


      You're definitely right about that, but I think in 1992 most of the players on the Dream Team would have been pegged at the time as future Hall of Famers, or at least at the level where I put Durant in that they were playing at a Hall of Fame level but would need to continue it a few more years to really be considered "in." And I am also pretty confident that when their careers are all over, this Olympic team will not come close to matching the feat of the entire 1992 squad making the Hall of Fame. But only time will tell.
    Well, remember that it's the Basketball Hall of Fame, not the NBA Hall of Fame. Chris Mullin didn't make the HOF because he was an all-time great NBA player; he made it because he was an *excellent* college player who had a very good pro career. Similarly, it may not be a slam dunk that someone like Carmelo Anthony would make an NBA Hall of Fame, his pro career plus his college title makes him a very likely inductee.


Break it down however you want, I stand by my assessment that there are way more all-time great players on the 1992 squad than the 2012 squad. There are more players on the 1992 team that would make this year's team than there are the other way around. If you're going to take anyone from the 2012 team over anyone from the 1992 team, who do you take and who do you remove? James probably has to be there at the expense of Laettner, if you ignore the idea of having a token college kid. If not, maybe James for Mullin. The only guard I would consider dropping for anyone on this year's team is Drexler. Maybe you take Durant over Bird on account of Bird's age at the time. That's about it as far as I'm concerned.

EDIT: I just want to clarify that while Dwight Howard being healthy would make this team better (and far more childish), it still wouldn't change my opinion at all. I definitely think Ewing and Robinson are being dismissed for no reason other than people's inclination to believe that the best players Right Now must be the best players ever. Ewing and Robinson were damn good players and there's no reason to believe Howard or Chandler would be able to do anything on offense against those guys, plus there's no guarantee that Howard as good as he is would shut those guys down. Plus, Howard is an absolute embarrassment at the free throw line. I mean, any player who shares a court with that guy when he goes to the line should be humiliated by it. Relative to the other players involved in this discussion, Dwight Howard is an offensive liability.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 18.7.12 1214)
Stefonics
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.81
    Originally posted by Reverend J Shaft
    I'm definitely in the minority here but I think the 2012 team would crush the 1992 Dream Team only because I think athletes are constantly becoming stronger, quicker, more agile and just more finely-tuned all around. And that makes me think that players in their mid- to late-20s today are definitively better than those players 20 years ago. I'd say this effect would be among the least pronounced in basketball but I still think LeBron & Co. could take Jordan & Co. anytime.

Players in the league 20 years ago, as in average players, yes. But Barkely, Jordan, Pippen, Ewing, Robinson, Stockton, Malone, Magic, and even broken down Bird? No. It's not even close. Go watch some old footage. It's amazing how quickly people forget. The league was much more physical 20 years ago. It was a different game. But there is no chance that anyone on the 2012 team, other than JBJ, is an overmatching physical specimen when compared to the Dream Team. Bird was broken, but it doesn't take much to shoot.
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    There are more players on the 1992 team that would make this year's team than there are the other way around. If you're going to take anyone from the 2012 team over anyone from the 1992 team, who do you take and who do you remove?

You are spot on. Lebron and Durant. That's it. I would take Lebron for Glyde and Durant for Mullin. CP3, no matter how good he is, is not better than Stockton or Magic. Take all players from both teams, in their primes, and draft two teams. I would bet a lot of money that, at least, the first 8 picks would be from the Dream Team.

(edited by Stefonics on 18.7.12 1227)
TheOldMan
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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.69
    Originally posted by Reverend J Shaft
    ..Ted Williams would struggle to hit .200 against today's pitching.. Just my opinion.




I'm not saying he'd match his numbers exactly in an era of sliders, intercontinental air travel and four relief pitchers every game - but Bob Feller had every bit as much cheese as Stephen Strasburg or Aroldis Chapman. And that was an era of few teams (fewer AAAA pitchers) and a higher mound.

Heck, Williams (stubbornly) hit .388 toward the end of his career through a shift that had the left side of the diamond unprotected. He also was the preeminent respected student of hitting of his era.

    Originally posted by WhiteBacon
    Click Here (chicagotribune.com) for a 1992 Strat-o-Matic sim'd five game victory.


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