Boston Idol
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| #21 Posted on 18.2.03 0036.55 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0041.51 |
Originally posted by ICEMAN
The JR sqaush was the perfect time for SCSA to do a run-in but I can understand why they didn't.
How many people here would buy the PPV just to see the first moment when Austin returns to the WWE, even if he wasn't facing Kendo Nagasaki's adopted son Eric on the PPV?
I think the theory of making people pay for just an appearance is wrong. This time the WWE seems to agree as they panicked and booked the relatively pointless match with Bischoff, but if you're selling the match with Bischoff, why not have a run-in to get your television audience more excited?
Because Bruce Mitchell and Dave Meltzer think you'll get thousands of buys just to see Austin's return?
Personally I would have had Austin come back during the cycle. The live audiences felt burned when the WWE teased him and didn't deliver. Using the garbage storyline elements already given, I'd have done this.
Week 1) Eric makes RAW magazine offer to Austin
Week 2) Austin shows up to accept offer, but also gives Eric a hard time about WCW stuff and won't sign
Week 3) The RAW article is out, so Eric has acted in good faith, but Austin keeps jerking him around
Week 4) Vince comes to fire Eric, but Eric tells him he has a secret plan. Vince is apparently convinced and relents. Eric then punks out Jim Lost. Austin runs in, but gets attacked by Storm, Regal, & Morley.
Week 5) Austin goes to Vince, demanding a chance to get even with Eric. Vince, who has been in league with Eric all along, forces Austin to sign with RAW in exchange for a one-on-one match with Eric at NWO.
Same crapola, but done in a logical fashion that builds, with Austin still having some scores to settle with Morley and the others after the PPV. It explains why Austin signed with RAW despite his hatred of Eric and despite Eric punking out his chubby friend.
Is this stuff that hard to write right?
Frank | Lexus
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| #22 Posted on 18.2.03 0048.12 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0048.22 | HHH has held the belt since it was brought out on Raw, and they've fed him face after face, even brought in SteinerTime. You know, maybe his holding the belt so long IS a build up unto itself. Look at how many people go ape when HHH gets pinned in a tag team match. People here, on the board, and the marks. Now, it looks like it'll be Booker T vs. HHH at Mania for the belt. Now, whether or not HHH regains at Backlash, or Booker and HHH go on to feud all the way until KotR, HHH will regain. However, Booker T will go up by leaps and bounds by being the man that could give old Trips a run for his money.
Good Raw as well. | Ubermonkeys
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| #23 Posted on 18.2.03 0058.09 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0059.01 | Shawn won the belt in the Elimination Chamber. | Phoenix37
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| #24 Posted on 18.2.03 0103.34 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0103.52 | Originally posted by Spiraling_Shape I mean, Jericho's match was just SCREAMING for Test to run down, take the key, and give it to Michaels. But, nothing - no Test/Jericho in the match listing, no GGW update which was listed in the Raw preview on wwe.com, no Test on the show at all. Not exactly a great way to build up a match on a PPV - assuming it still exists.
Test had a match earlier in the night against Rico for Heat, so he was in attendance. Stacy; however, was not there. She probably was detained by the weather. Seeing that Stacy wasn't there, that's probably the reason they didn't use Test. Although a run-in against Jericho would have made sense and really didn't need Stacy. I got the feeling after seeing Jericho in a rage after losing to Jeff that they were setting something up there between those two. Boy o boy, Jericho now has a feud with Test, HBK and now Hardy?!?! They really need to make up their minds which one their going to go with here!
(edited by Phoenix37 on 18.2.03 0204)
(edited by Phoenix37 on 18.2.03 0208) | Boston Idol
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| #25 Posted on 18.2.03 0106.11 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0108.43 |
Originally posted by Ubermonkeys Shawn won the belt in the Elimination Chamber.
I hate to post off topic, but how can a guy whose experience total looks like a phone number still be ranked as a "jobber to the stars?" Please don't tell me that this is all random. I'm an atheist, but I'd like to believe that someone or something is controlling these message boards.
Frank
("Good hand") | Phoenix37
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| #26 Posted on 18.2.03 0112.03 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0113.35 | A bit off topic here.... but can someone please tell me how I can get my little picture thingy on the left to appear! Thanks in advance | Boston Idol
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| #27 Posted on 18.2.03 0118.23 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0118.35 |
Originally posted by Phoenix37 A bit off topic here.... but can someone please tell me how I can get my little picture thingy on the left to appear! Thanks in advance
Perhaps if you loaded it onto the internet...
Or alternatively you could share your local hard drive with the entire world.
Frank
(You're never too new to give smarmy advice to people with even less experience than yourself.) | fuelinjected
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| #28 Posted on 18.2.03 0129.44 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0130.19 | Making people pay is the objective. Austin's got a shitload of loyal fans, more then probably any other wrestler. I think a lot of people would pay to see his first appearance back. Even if they don't, I'd rather take that risk then just saying screw it and giving it away for free.
However, the way they've gone about it isn't very good. They've diluted Austin's return with the Bischoff "match". I guess they figured they've jerked around the fans so much, no one believed Austin would really show up at No Way Out.
I would have ended RAW this week with the glass shattering, Austin steps out of the entrance and hit that copyright notice. Just to show everybody that they are delivering him at No Way Out. Anything more then that and they would have killed his return because they have/had no big return match in mind for No Way Out.
Personally, I don't think he should wrestle until Mania but they'll panic and rush it. | spf
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| #29 Posted on 18.2.03 0134.30 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0134.55 |
Originally posted by Boston Idol Because Bruce Mitchell and Dave Meltzer think you'll get thousands of buys just to see Austin's return?
Well, considering they did the same thing last year with the nWo, and they popped a much higher buyrate than usual for an off-month PPV, I'd say there's something to the theory. They should have had Austin appear after the show went off the air to give the live audience their jollies like last week, but for the rest of the world, Austin should not return until you have to pay for the priviledge. Even if just 5,000 more people decide to pay to see Austin return, that's still something like $75,000 in extra revenue for WWE. And considering IIRC something like 50,000 or so more than usual bought No Way Out last year, now you're looking at some huge cash at stake. | Excalibur05
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| #30 Posted on 18.2.03 0159.08 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0203.01 |
Originally posted by Boston Idol Is this stuff that hard to write right?
Apparently, yes, because I don't find your solution any more palatable than theirs.
They've taken most of the right steps. They're promoting Austin for No Way Out, and that's when they'll deliver him. Just jamming him onto a RAW, with ANY storyline, doesn't help. Let him come out at the Pay Per View, and give fans who paid to see him first shot. He'll stunner Bischoff, drink some beer, his fans will all say "Yay! It's Stone Cold" and then the shmoes who didn't pay to see it will get it the next night. That's when he'll get integrated into stories and the such.
Wrestling is above all, a business, a point which has been driven harder and harder at us in the past couple months. There was a time when nobody gave a rats ass what ratings the show was drawing, but over the last several years we've been pouring over every quarter hour. Well, listen, if Ausitn is going to pop an anything you'll want it to be a buyrate.
If he comes back on TV, great, I'm sure there'd be a ratings surge, but as the novelty wears off, it'll start to normalize again. No real long term benifit, other than his return and some fans. If he comes out on PPV, you pop a buyrate get the cash that's inherent in doing so (you don't directly get cash from a few good TV ratings), get the same fans you would have before, Austin, and probably get some good TV ratings from the people who didn't order the PPV and still want to see him.
The WWE is doing the right thing in not rushing things. They've rushed things too often before, and it's gotten them nearly nothing in return. It's not like they're breaking anyone's heart here. Austin WILL be back, and he'll be back when they say he will, expecting him any sooner is foolish.
Would it have been nice to see him pop up before the PPV, yeah sure. But that doesn't mean it's the best thing for the company as a business, nor does it mean that it's the best thing for the fans/story. I've been more than satisfied with the build towards his return, and I look forward to seeing him back, both Sunday night and on subsequent Mondays. | Boston Idol
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| #31 Posted on 18.2.03 0201.05 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0203.09 |
Originally posted by spf2119
Originally posted by Boston Idol Because Bruce Mitchell and Dave Meltzer think you'll get thousands of buys just to see Austin's return?
Well, considering they did the same thing last year with the nWo, and they popped a much higher buyrate than usual for an off-month PPV, I'd say there's something to the theory.
Ahh, but here's the problem. They've killed themselves during sweeps because their bait-and-switch cuteness turned off viewers. Also they may have undermined fan support for the character of Stone Cold. He's supposed to be a renegade who shows up on his terms, not some flunky who only appears when he is booked to appear.
The nWo may have drawn higher buyrates, but they didn't help the more important sweeps ratings (the WWE gets lots of money from advertising too, at least when the ratings are strong) and they didn't have much longevity when they finally showed up because fans stopped buying into the bait-and-switch hype for their return.
The first week Bischoff made it clear that Austin was going to return at the PPV doing something, yet the second week when Bischoff started into a promo for the already announced magazine article the live fans booed like hell as if they had been ripped off. That is the problem, they expected Austin to appear even though he wasn't scheduled because that has always been the nature of his character in the past.
Oops.
We'll see if it hurts Austin's character long term. I suspect he's also going to look a lot older like Lawler did after a few months away. And whether his "first appearance" increases buys and doesn't affect his longevity or not, the WWE already tanked sweeps.
Double oops.
Frank
"The basics are the basics because they work." - Bruce Mitchell | spf
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| #32 Posted on 18.2.03 0239.53 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0239.58 | Idol, on what grounds do you say they have tanked their sweeps ratings? Since Royal Rumble they have had 4 Raw's, 2 of them in Feb. sweeps. The first one after Royal Rumble did a 3.8. The next one did a 4.1. The first one in Feb. did a 3.5. The most recent one before last night's did a 3.9. There are still 2 more Raw ratings that need to come in before Feb's total numbers are even able to be calculated.
For reference sake, the November sweeps saw Raw do a 3.5, 3.1, 3.7, and a 3.4. So for the month that is supposedly tanking their sweeps, they already have one rating higher than their highest November sweeps rating, and the other rating thus far in Feb. equals the 2nd highest out of 4 November sweeps.
I'm not going to argue whether or not this was an effective move in terms of long-term storylines or character development, as frankly I think there are better ways they could have booked this. But to say this is a bad business decision I don't believe is borne out by the numbers. Now if tomorrow the Raw rating comes in at 2.9 then I'll eat my words. But if it comes in in the mid to high 3's or beyond, then I fail to see where WWE is hurting themself. Unless you believe that somehow Austin's return could have raised their ratings into the mid 4's or higher, which I would say would have been highly unlikely.
(edited to give 411Wrestling the credit for the Ratings #'s)
(edited by spf2119 on 18.2.03 0240) | Boston Idol
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| #33 Posted on 18.2.03 0300.55 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0304.16 | : Apparently, yes, because I don't find your : solution any more palatable than theirs.
Serves me right for asking.
: They've taken most of the right steps.
Vince made the match because why?
Austin agreed to the match because why?
Eric punked out Ross because why?
None of those major elements of the making of this match made any sense at the time. The WWE has panicked and tried to create reasons after the fact, but that doesn't mean the actions make sense as presented.
: They're promoting Austin for No Way Out, : and that's when they'll deliver him.
They got heavily booed and later got silence as live fans felt burned by bait-and-switch cuteness surrounding the Austin announcements. You and I can agree that Eric made it crystal clear in his first statement, but the fans still booed the next week and that is what counts.
It isn't good business to burn your fanbase, especially the ones paying money to see shows.
: Just jamming him onto a RAW, with ANY : storyline, doesn't help.
I didn't just jam him into RAW. The storyline that Eric was trying to lure him back by giving him a chance to vent in RAW magazine and by kissing his butt on RAW is just as good if not better than what the WWE has been doing.
: Let him come out at the Pay Per View, and : give fans who paid to see him first shot.
The fans at those house shows seemed to feel that they deserved to see him too, but who needs house shows and hot crowds, right?
And the fans at home watching two hours of bait-and-switch teasers, who needs them either. Let them go watch 'Joe Millionaire' and make them buy the pay-per-view instead.
The three legs of the business do not stand independantly. People like Meltzer and Mitchell who focus solely on PPV don't seem to grasp the modern model of the business where television is a revenue source rather than a loss leader and where hot live shows bring in money and fuel both ratings and buyrates by making the product seem like one of the hottest forms of entertainment.
Instead the WWE gets booing or silence at live shows and on TV as ratings suffer. They'll be left with one leg to stand on, and based on last year's lessons that leg won't last long on it's own.
: He'll stunner Bischoff, drink some beer, : his fans will all say "Yay! It's Stone : Cold" and then the shmoes who didn't pay : to see it will get it the next night.
If they bother to tune in at all. You can't burn people indefinitely, even pro wrestling fans.
: That's when he'll get integrated into : stories and the such.
He's already been integrated into a story, just in totally nonsensical fashion. And don't hold your breath for a better story in the next cycle as he's likely going to face the Rock in a blowoff match at Mania.
: Wrestling is above all, a business,
See ad revenues and house show gate receipts...
"What?" - Meltzer and Mitchell
: a point which has been driven harder and harder : at us in the past couple months. There was a : time when nobody gave a rats ass what ratings : the show was drawing, but over the last several : years we've been pouring over every quarter hour. : Well, listen, if Ausitn is going to pop an anything : you'll want it to be a buyrate.
Austin _wrestling_ after all these months should pop a buyrate and since the WWE is already selling Austin _wrestling_ on the next PPV there is little point in saving Austin _showing up_ as another draw.
With the nWo it was supposed to be _show up_ on the first PPV and _wrestle_ on the second PPV, but audiences were so sick of the bait and switch that the WWE ended up giving away _wrestle_.
: If he comes back on TV, great, I'm sure there'd : be a ratings surge, but as the novelty wears off, : it'll start to normalize again.
Nah, unlike Trip, Austin is a ratings draw. The ratings already spiked on speculation that he would return, but they fell again when it became clear that RAW was just a jackoff, if you'll pardon the coarse metaphor.
: No real long term benifit, other than his return : and some fans.
What is the _long term benefit_ of _one_ buyrate? They'd make more money off advertising based on an increase in ratings during sweeps.
"What?" - Meltzer and Mitchell
And that surge in interest would fuel excitement going into Wrestlemania, prompting better buyrates.
"What?" - Meltzer and Mitchell
And since Austin's first _wrestling_ appearance is likely to spike the No Way Out buyrate as much or more than a _showing up_ appearance, the WWE would not have lost anything by putting him on RAW anyway.
"What?" - Meltzer and Mitchell
Same boost to the buyrate based on first _wrestling_, better ratings during sweeps, and higher customer satisfaction going toward Mania.
Frankly Meltzer and Mitchell have locked themselves in the tower on this one. All they are looking at is one buyrate, a short term payoff in only one part of a multi-part business. I'm the one looking long term and trying to mazimize all aspects of the business.
: The WWE is doing the right thing in not rushing things.
Was I rushing things? Once you decide to have Austin _wrestle_ on the PPV, the fact that he is also just going to be there is moot.
: They've rushed things too often before, and it's gotten : them nearly nothing in return.
They did the same bait-and-switch nonsense last year and blew sweeps and blew support for the nWo. They got one buyrate, plus Hogan vs Rock but that would have drawn anyway. So much for long term planning and taking it slow. They shot that whole wad over two pay-per-views.
: It's not like they're breaking anyone's heart here.
I heard a lot of booing and a lot of crickets. You think the WWE can simply abuse fans who pay money to attend house shows? Think again. That's why they have so many empty seats now.
: Austin WILL be back, and he'll be back when they : say he will, expecting him any sooner is foolish.
He's Austin. In the past he showed up whenever he damn well pleased. The character sets the expectation. Failure to deliver undermines the character. They killed off the nWo in two months and tanked sweeps in the process. Not smart.
: Would it have been nice to see him pop up before : the PPV, yeah sure.
Forget "nice", I'm no fan of Austin, I'm arguing from a business standpoint. You seem willing to ignore two-thirds of the business model, foresaking the TV fans who generate ad revenue and the house show fans who buy tickets and merch because you think PPV fans are the only fans who matter.
Like Meltzer and Mitchell, you just don't get it.
: I've been more than satisfied with the build : towards his return,
You're in the minority judging by the response from house show fans and from TV fans online.
Does it make good sense to cater to the minority?
: and I look forward to seeing him back, both : Sunday night and on subsequent Mondays.
I look forward to better storytelling than we have been seeing lately where matches are made for no reason, then dumb stuff is done also for no reason to give the already made match a reason.
Cart before the horse... and screw house show and television fans in the process because who needs those two sources of revenue anyway, right?
Frank | Tribal Prophet
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| #34 Posted on 18.2.03 0406.38 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0411.24 | Dear God, I hope that wasn't your signature. I gave up reading it about 2672 lines down...
The reason they gave for Vince making the match was that he hates Bischoff, and wanted to let him know first hand what he's gotten into by bringing Austin back. That was said at the end of last week's show before the match announcement.
Austin agreed because Bischoff is someone who he honestly hates, and that was mentioned on tv over the last couple weeks.
Eric punked out Ross because it's Austin's best friend. It's kinda like why if Jericho was having a match with Test at the PPV, Test might want a match with Jericho's friend Christian to "send a message" like they did last week.
Tribal Prophet | tomvejada
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| #35 Posted on 18.2.03 0631.50 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0632.15 | Random Raw Thoughts:
Good tribute to Hennig. I also liked Jericho's gum swat.
The crowd was dead, or if you're JR, "stunned" at most of the matches.
That Steph-Carrot Top commercial was weird.
I found it strange that they didn't mention Test-Jericho.
Some of Bischoff's antics during the match against JR were funny.
Overall, another so-so RAW. | FurryHippie
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| #36 Posted on 18.2.03 0710.47 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0713.59 |
Originally posted by Tribal Prophet The reason they gave for Vince making the match was that he hates Bischoff, and wanted to let him know first hand what he's gotten into by bringing Austin back. That was said at the end of last week's show before the match announcement.
Austin agreed because Bischoff is someone who he honestly hates, and that was mentioned on tv over the last couple weeks.
Eric punked out Ross because it's Austin's best friend. It's kinda like why if Jericho was having a match with Test at the PPV, Test might want a match with Jericho's friend Christian to "send a message" like they did last week.
Tribal Prophet
Boston Idol, I agree with some of your points, but Tribal Prophet just basically summed up the WWE's logic very simple. It works if you don't hunt for reasons that it doesn't work.
I've said it once, I'll say it here, and I'm sure I'll say it again sometime down the road - if you don't look at it as brain surgery, the simple steps WWE take sometimes *do* have logic. | Spaceman Spiff
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| #37 Posted on 18.2.03 0745.51 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0759.02 | What exactly did Nowinski do to get his push killed, though?
What push? | redsoxnation
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| #38 Posted on 18.2.03 0757.24 Reposted on: 18.2.10 0759.03 | A few RAW Thoughts:
Hmm, I've been in a half boston crab for a while. Lets see, I'll start running around after I break it then not sell it at all for the rest of the match. That, in a nutshell, is why RVD won't ever be champ. Before people go crazy over Trip jobbing to Booker in the tag match, remember two things: He who jobs on the RAW before the PPV does not job on PPV, and Trip jobbed to Booker back in November, and it really didn't do much for him then either. Nice to see Rodney Mack is a graduate of the Ahmed Johnson Tiger Bomb School. Why, oh why, is Jeff Hardy being pushed? And, I was shocked no Test run-in. I did like the handcuffing of Michaels though, seemed like an NWA/WCCW move from the 80's. J.R. in two main events in less than two months, three if you count the McMahon interview? Nice way to develop the young talent. | Dexley's Midnight Jogger
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| #39 Posted on 18.2.03 1000.40 Reposted on: 18.2.10 1002.16 | And the return of the exploding concrete block! Although this one did appear to be stronger than the last. Didn't whatshisface smash one over some knee? I tried to block that out. | Underwater
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| #40 Posted on 18.2.03 1007.49 Reposted on: 18.2.10 1009.05 |
Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
What exactly did Nowinski do to get his push killed, though?
What push?
He was getting a steady amount of victories and mic time for a little while, plus they jobbed Al Snow out to him. Shortly after Maven returned, they just kinda gave up on him. I would guess it was because he pretty much sucks in the ring, but none of the tough enough kids have been good workers, so expecting him to be great seems stupid.
And I believe the last time the exploding concrete block was used was either Hall or Nash on Austin's knee. Heh, maybe they're setting up a Nash run-in at the PPV.(please God no) |
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