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The 7 - Baseball - The New HOF inductees are...
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PhilRippa
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#1 Posted on 7.1.03 1329.21
Reposted on: 7.1.10 1329.22
I am on a real Hall of Fame kick now - aren't I.

Anyway

Eddie Murray and Gary Carter were voted in today.

For ESPN.Com Story: Click Here

Phil
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#2 Posted on 7.1.03 1355.44
Reposted on: 7.1.10 1355.58
It's now official...I'm really old when GARY CARTER gets elected into the Hall of Fame.

I grew up watching this guy play for the Expos, and met him on numerous ocassions. He was always a class guy, contrary to what I've heard reported in the media.

EDIT: And if he goes in with an Expos hat on, I'll be doubly happy!

(edited by Bullitt on 7.1.03 1257)
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#3 Posted on 7.1.03 1359.45
Reposted on: 7.1.10 1403.47
Sandberg didn't even get 50%? What the hell?
vsp
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#4 Posted on 7.1.03 1410.23
Reposted on: 7.1.10 1420.43
First year on the ballot. He'll get in sooner or later.

The Veterans Committee's ballot interests me just as much this year (results to be announced February 26th), in that Marvin Miller is one of this year's finalists. If ANY human being changed the face of baseball, for better and for worse, it was Miller.

(I'd like to see Miller, Whitey Herzog, Walter O'Malley, Ron Santo and Minnie Minoso receive some consideration, roughly in that order.)



(edited by vsp on 7.1.03 1211)
redsoxnation
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#5 Posted on 7.1.03 1502.00
Reposted on: 7.1.10 1502.10
Shouldn't whoever voted for Danny Tartabull be placed in a special facility with white jackets?
Although I was not a fan of his, I'm surprised Jack Morris doesn't get more votes. He was enough of a big game pitcher throughout his career to at least get around 40-50%.
TheCow
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#6 Posted on 7.1.03 1519.04
Reposted on: 7.1.10 1519.07
If Sandberg doesn't get in by 2006, I'll be surprised.

(2006 is looking like a relatively light year.... this is, of course, assuming it doesn't happen before then.)
vsp
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#7 Posted on 7.1.03 1527.02
Reposted on: 7.1.10 1527.52

    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    Although I was not a fan of his, I'm surprised Jack Morris doesn't get more votes. He was enough of a big game pitcher throughout his career to at least get around 40-50%.


Pros and cons for Morris:

+ He was a consistent winner throughout his career, with his only "bad" season (6-14 in 1989) coming in a year where the Tigers went right down the toilet all-around.

- He didn't reach the magical number of 300 wins.

+ Clutch postseason pitching: a combined 7-0 in 1984 and 1991 in the playoffs and Series, and he has two rings to show for it.

- Okay, he was pretty much along for the ride for his two Toronto rings...

+ Five-time all-star, consistently up there in strikeouts, complete games, wins and innings pitched.

- High ERA by HOF standards, which is considered by many to be a better criteria than wins.

+ Was a central component of a consistently good Tigers team in the 80's, which (coincidentally or not) went to shit soon after he left.

Me? I say he should be up there, but what do I know?



Grimis
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#8 Posted on 7.1.03 1534.02
Reposted on: 7.1.10 1537.29

    Originally posted by vsp
    High ERA by HOF standards, which is considered by many to be a better criteria than wins.

If Morris ever gets in, his would be the highest ERA of any HOFer.

And as far as pipe smoking- somebody voted for MARK DAVIS. Here's a guy who saved 44 for San Diego in 1989 in his contract year, cashed in for HUGE coin with Kansas City and then did nothing for the rest of his career.
MedallaGuy
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#9 Posted on 7.1.03 1546.16
Reposted on: 7.1.10 1550.12
But my question is...how the HELL does Danny Tartabull gets a vote!!! Sheeshh...all those little lost votes count at the end baseball writers!

Hoping that Ryno makes it next year along with Ecks and maybe Joe Carter.
mountinman44
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#10 Posted on 7.1.03 1959.08
Reposted on: 7.1.10 1959.10
    Originally posted by Grimis
    And as far as pipe smoking- somebody voted for MARK DAVIS. Here's a guy who saved 44 for San Diego in 1989 in his contract year, cashed in for HUGE coin with Kansas City and then did nothing for the rest of his career.


And, it was his ONLY good season in the majors, and he got a Cy Young out of it. Other than 1989, the guy was a waste of space.

(edited by mountinman44 on 7.1.03 1759)
Big Bad
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#11 Posted on 8.1.03 1736.07
Reposted on: 8.1.10 1737.20

    Okay, he was pretty much along for the ride for his two Toronto rings...


You forget that Morris won 21 games in 1992, becoming the first Jay to win 20 games in a year. He was junk in the playoffs, but still....

I also got Jack Morris' autograph this same year (when I was 10) by chasing him down a Toronto street, so hooray for me.
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#12 Posted on 10.1.03 0728.40
Reposted on: 10.1.10 0729.01
Bert Blyleven is getting the biggest hose job. He won 287 games for mediocre teams and is fourth all-time in strikeouts. What's a guy got to do?
redsoxnation
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#13 Posted on 10.1.03 0910.32
Reposted on: 10.1.10 0916.30

    Originally posted by pieman
    Bert Blyleven is getting the biggest hose job. He won 287 games for mediocre teams and is fourth all-time in strikeouts. What's a guy got to do?







Come out of retirement to win the last 13 to get to the magical 300. I mean, even at his age he'd probably be a #4 starter for 7 or 8 teams.
Corajudo
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#14 Posted on 10.1.03 0932.58
Reposted on: 10.1.10 0935.40

    Originally posted by pieman
    Bert Blyleven is getting the biggest hose job. He won 287 games for mediocre teams and is fourth all-time in strikeouts. What's a guy got to do?


He's getting hosed, as is Alan Trammell, who received less than 15 percent of the vote. How is it that Trammell receives almost the same vote total as Mattingly? And, I can't believe that Gossage receives virtually the same vote total as Lee Smith. Lastly, I realize he's not even close to being elected, but Steve Garvey's vote totals astound me. He was a nice player, but there is no way he had a HOF career.
jfkfc
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#15 Posted on 10.1.03 1008.28
Reposted on: 10.1.10 1008.56

    Originally posted by pieman
    Bert Blyleven is getting the biggest hose job. He won 287 games for mediocre teams and is fourth all-time in strikeouts. What's a guy got to do?
Pieman, did you ever watch Bert Blyleven pitch and say to yourself, "Geez, this guy is one of the all-time greats, certainly one of the five greatest pitchers in the game right now!"? Bert Blyleven was a very solid starter for many crappy teams. Might he have had a better record if he pitched for better teams, and maybe a ring or two? Who knows. Maybe he would have sucked with a better team, maybe he would have a closet of Cy Young awards. Personally, I was always a big fan of Blyleven, hoping the Yanks would pick him up. The way I see it - looking back now, he has some great total stats, but I think, like Perry or Kaat, his stats are more an accumulation of wins and strikeouts over a really really long career than an indication of one of the all-time greats.
Corajudo
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#16 Posted on 10.1.03 1049.52
Reposted on: 10.1.10 1052.08
    Originally posted by jfkfc

      Originally posted by pieman
      Bert Blyleven is getting the biggest hose job. He won 287 games for mediocre teams and is fourth all-time in strikeouts. What's a guy got to do?
    Pieman, did you ever watch Bert Blyleven pitch and say to yourself, "Geez, this guy is one of the all-time greats, certainly one of the five greatest pitchers in the game right now!"? Bert Blyleven was a very solid starter for many crappy teams. Might he have had a better record if he pitched for better teams, and maybe a ring or two? Who knows. Maybe he would have sucked with a better team, maybe he would have a closet of Cy Young awards. Personally, I was always a big fan of Blyleven, hoping the Yanks would pick him up. The way I see it - looking back now, he has some great total stats, but I think, like Perry or Kaat, his stats are more an accumulation of wins and strikeouts over a really really long career than an indication of one of the all-time greats.


The only difference between him and Eddie Murray is that Murray reached the benchmark stat while Blyleven fell just short (probably because of the mediocre teams he pitched for). Also, I don't see how you can say that he would have 'sucked' with better teams. Do you really think that Morris was a better pitcher than Blyleven? If you had put Blyleven on those same Tiger and Blue Jay teams, he would have had the 300 wins and this wouldn't even be a discussion (although it is a bit of a bogus argument to play 'if player x had been on team y then z would have happened'...even if it would have... ) Also, if you look at the more recent inductions, do you think that Sutton or Niekro were really better than Blyleven? Niekro deserves enshrinement just because of the knuckleball and because his brother Joe was one of my favorite players when I was growing up in Houston (consider Phil a proxy, at least in my eyes).

(edited by Corajudo on 10.1.03 1051)
Big Bad
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#17 Posted on 10.1.03 1158.01
Reposted on: 10.1.10 1159.03

    Come out of retirement to win the last 13 to get to the magical 300. I mean, even at his age he'd probably be a #4 starter for 7 or 8 teams.


In a related story, there's a new movie being made starring Bernie Mac as a ballplayer who has three of his hits disallowed, so he has to come out of retirement to get his total back up to 3000.

Apropos of nothing...
jfkfc
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#18 Posted on 10.1.03 1230.56
Reposted on: 10.1.10 1234.44

    Originally posted by Corajudo
    The only difference between him and Eddie Murray is that Murray reached the benchmark stat while Blyleven fell just short (probably because of the mediocre teams he pitched for).
I was never a huge Murray fan, but in my opinion, he was a more of a better and consistant threat as a hitter than BB as a pitcher.


Also, I don't see how you can say that he would have 'sucked' with better teams.
I didn't post that. I posted: "Maybe he would have sucked with a better team", with the idea being: Who knows?


Do you really think that Morris was a better pitcher than Blyleven?
I don't think Jack Morris was better than Blyleven.


Also, if you look at the more recent inductions, do you think that Sutton or Niekro were really better than Blyleven? Niekro deserves enshrinement just because of the knuckleball
I think Sutton and Niekro getting is laughable anyway. I would have put Bert in before either of them, and I wouldn't put Bert in anyway.
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#19 Posted on 10.1.03 1743.26
Reposted on: 10.1.10 1745.43
jfkfc--The Morris comment wasn't specifically aimed at you; I shouldn't have quoted you for that comment because I was posting more generally. However, I don't see how he could have 'sucked' no matter who he pitched with. It doesn't even warrent a maybe to me, but that's irrevelant because those data do not exist. On Niekro and Sutton, they are in the HOF, mostly because they hit the benchmark. I wouldn't put them in, but they are in (and I wouldn't call them 'laughable' HOFers, like Ted Lyons, to name one of the most obvious) and Bert is better than either of them.

EDIT: Yikes, I don't like that analysis. Scratch the part about Blyleven belonging because he's better than Niekro and Sutton and they're in. That opens up a whole can of worms. Sorry.

(edited by Corajudo on 10.1.03 1744)
J.T. Dutch
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#20 Posted on 11.1.03 0215.07
Reposted on: 11.1.10 0216.54
Some random thoughts ...

The difference between Eddie Murray and Bert Blyleven is HUGE. Are you kidding me? Murray: 3000 hits, 500 homers, consistent threat, big game player. Blyleven: Inconsistent, gopher-ball prone, high number of K's because he hung around too long, NOT a big game pitcher. Murray was THE big man in his batting order more often than not; Blyleven was a 2 or 3 starter on his teams more often than not.

Ryne Sandberg deserved to go into the Hall before Gary Carter. Carter would not have made the Hall in the first place if he didn't play in New York. Sandberg was, without question, the best player on his team nearly every year he played. Carter was the fourth-best player on his only Championship team in 1986 -- behind Hernandez, Strawberry, and Gooden. Taken as a whole ... Sandberg was equal to Carter as a defensive player, Sandberg was slightly behind Carter as a hitter, and Sandberg was a better and faster baserunner by a mile. I'm willing to bet that Sandberg received more support in MVP voting than Carter did, but I'm not sure on that.

Jack Morris certainly deserves a good look by the Hall. I would also like to see Dave Stieb get some recognition. Dennis Eckersley will probably go in the Hall, as he should. I would put all three of those guys in the Hall before Blyleven. I would put Fernando Valenzuela in the Hall before Blyleven.
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