The W
Views: 101525513
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Color chart | Log in for more!
21.12.07 2226
The 7 - Baseball - Hall of Fame ballot 02-03 Register and log in to post!
Pages: 1 2 Next(976 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (30 total)
BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple
Level: 129

Posts: 1067/5028
EXP: 24536292
For next: 513429

Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 12 hours
Last activity: 3 hours
#1 Posted on 2.12.02 0606.05
Reposted on: 2.12.09 0611.08
From ESPN.com


    The complete ballot (x-first time eligible): Bert Blyleven, x-Brett Butler, Gary Carter, x-Vince Coleman, Dave Concepcion, x-Darren Daulton, x-Mark Davis, Andre Dawson, x-Sid Fernandez, Steve Garvey, Rich Gossage, Keith Hernandez, x-Rick Honeycutt, x-Danny Jackson, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, x-Darryl Kile, Don Mattingly, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, x-Eddie Murray, Dave Parker, x-Tony Pena, Jim Rice, x-Ryne Sandberg, x-Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, x-Danny Tartabull, x-Mickey Tettleton, Alan Trammell, x-Fernando Valenzuela, x-Mitch Williams, x-Todd Worrell.


The only notable new face is Eddie Murray who is really toeing the line. The only name I really like on this list is Gary Carter...except I was always down with Tettleton's batting stance.
Promote this thread!
Zaphod
Chorizo
Level: 28

Posts: 124/150
EXP: 125726
For next: 5614

Since: 24.2.02

Since last post: 4349 days
Last activity: 4341 days
#2 Posted on 2.12.02 0848.33
Reposted on: 2.12.09 0851.01
Of the first-timers, the only ones I see having any chance at all would be Ryne-o and MAYBE Lee Smith. Darryl Kile would be a dark horse because his name is still fresh in the writers' minds and he might get sympathy votes that could put him in the HoF. He's a tough one to call, since, if he'd had a chance to have a whole career, it would be much, much easier to judge his chances accurately.

That said, I'd love to see Brett Butler make it. As for the returning candidates, several of them deserve to make it but won't: Gary Carter, Jack Morris (if only for his post-season brilliance), Bruce Sutter, and ESPECIALLY Andre Dawson.

Purely subjective, based on who I liked as a kid, I'd be very happy to see Davey Concepcion (ALL of the regulars from the Big Red Machine except Pete Rose and Cesar Geronimo deserve it, but I'm very biased. ) make it. Ditto for Dale Murphy, because when I used to get teased about my name ("Chip and Dale", "Dale Evans", "Dale Aldren"... *grumble*), I'd counter with "Dale Murphy" and they'd shut up and leave me alone. Alas, I don't think that will carry much weight with the voters.
skorpio17
Morcilla
Level: 52

Posts: 200/618
EXP: 1035904
For next: 47944

Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

Since last post: 2469 days
Last activity: 2469 days
#3 Posted on 2.12.02 0919.56
Reposted on: 2.12.09 0923.49
Here is who I'd like to see get in, in order of most deserving.

Eddie Murray
Ryne Sandberg
Jack Morris
Lee Smith
Gary Carter
Vince Coleman - consideration for all the Steals.
Simba
Frankfurter
Level: 58

Posts: 155/809
EXP: 1546930
For next: 30625

Since: 7.8.02
From: Boston, MA

Since last post: 2564 days
Last activity: 2172 days
#4 Posted on 2.12.02 1007.16
Reposted on: 2.12.09 1008.19
Can someone explain the reason that Kile is on the ballot? (other than the obvious) Is it strictly a gesture?
Java
Goetta
Level: 39

Posts: 48/310
EXP: 375647
For next: 29128

Since: 2.1.02
From: Chandler, AZ

Since last post: 16 days
Last activity: 7 hours
#5 Posted on 2.12.02 1037.44
Reposted on: 2.12.09 1037.46
There is precedent for it, they did it with Roberto Clemente and Thurman Munson. If you die during your active career, the 5 year wait is waived.
jfkfc
Liverwurst
Level: 69

Posts: 177/1177
EXP: 2767721
For next: 102037

Since: 9.2.02

Since last post: 158 days
Last activity: 5 days
#6 Posted on 2.12.02 1053.59
Reposted on: 2.12.09 1054.03
Danny Tartabull. WTF is this guy doing on the ballot? I always get a laugh and bluster at the total jabronies that they throw onto the ballot. Where is Steve Balboni's name? Ellis Valentine? Claudell Washington? Moose Haas?

If Munson never got in, no way Kile gets in. If Kile gets in, I am taking hostages, because his career was crap compared to Guidry, and Louisiana Lightning doesn't seem to be getting in either.

I could see Murray and Sandburg getting in, but no one else. Anyone else getting in is a joke. Lee Smith? Puhleeze. A save whore, nothing else. Saves are the most overrated stat in baseball, and I can think of about 25 other closers I would have on my team before Lee Smith in his prime.

If Jack Morris gets in, you might as well have Orlando Hernandez start composing his induction speech also (with subtitles). Not that he deserves it either.
Downtown Bookie
Morcilla
Level: 53

Posts: 110/647
EXP: 1121163
For next: 35963

Since: 7.4.02
From: The Inner City, Now Living In The Country

Since last post: 194 days
Last activity: 88 days
#7 Posted on 2.12.02 1124.40
Reposted on: 2.12.09 1125.03

    Originally posted by Java
    There is precedent for it, they did it with Roberto Clemente and Thurman Munson. If you die during your active career, the 5 year wait is waived.


Actually, you're half right. They did it for Roberto Clemente; it was also done for Lou Gehrig in 1939 via a special election. But there was nothing "automatic" about it. These were two men who were unquestionably Hall of Fame caliber players. Waiving the usual waiting-period requirement simply allowed these two great players to enter the Hall earlier than they would have under normal circumstances.

However, in the case of Thurman Munson this was not done, and, IMHO, rightly so. While a case may be made that Munson should be in the Hall there is nothing cut and dried about his selection, as evidenced by the fact that more than two decades later he has still not been elected. For this reason I believe putting Darryl Kile's name on the ballot this year is a huge mistake. Kile did not have a no-brainer Hall of Fame type career, such as did, say, Tom Seaver or Nolan Ryan or Jim Palmer or Steve Carlton (to name a few). In fact Darryl Kile (and, back in the 70's, Thurman Munson) illustrate the reason why you have a five year "cooling off" period: so that the voters are not swayed in their decision whether or not to grant a player the sport's highest honor by outside factors and circumstances. Again, just my opinion, but I have to charge MLB with an error on this play.
Sec19Row53
Lap cheong
Level: 78

Posts: 180/1581
EXP: 4326398
For next: 55847

Since: 2.1.02
From: Oconomowoc, WI

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 2 days
Y!:
#8 Posted on 2.12.02 1235.18
Reposted on: 2.12.09 1236.57
    Originally posted by Simba
    Can someone explain the reason that Kile is on the ballot? (other than the obvious) Is it strictly a gesture?

I believe that the rule is that, provided a player meets the requirements for length of service, his name will appear on the ballot 5 years after retirement or the first ballot 6 months after his death. That's why Kile is on, but Munson wasn't.

Both Gehrig and Clemente (I believe) were special elections, not covered by this rule.

Here are the actual rules for eligibility, from the Hall of Fame web site:

3. Eligible Candidates Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A) A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
B) Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
C) Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
D) In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
E) Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.


(edited by Sec19Row53 on 2.12.02 1310)
Eddie Famous
Andouille
Level: 90

Posts: 425/2186
EXP: 7049991
For next: 138645

Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 54 min.
#9 Posted on 2.12.02 2033.45
Reposted on: 2.12.09 2034.44

    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    From ESPN.com


      The complete ballot (x-first time eligible): Bert Blyleven, x-Brett Butler, Gary Carter, x-Vince Coleman, Dave Concepcion, x-Darren Daulton, x-Mark Davis, Andre Dawson, x-Sid Fernandez, Steve Garvey, Rich Gossage, Keith Hernandez, x-Rick Honeycutt, x-Danny Jackson, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, x-Darryl Kile, Don Mattingly, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, x-Eddie Murray, Dave Parker, x-Tony Pena, Jim Rice, x-Ryne Sandberg, x-Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, x-Danny Tartabull, x-Mickey Tettleton, Alan Trammell, x-Fernando Valenzuela, x-Mitch Williams, x-Todd Worrell.


    The only notable new face is Eddie Murray who is really toeing the line. The only name I really like on this list is Gary Carter...except I was always down with Tettleton's batting stance.



Eddie Murray should be a first ballot unanimous, but won't because these voters are idiots.

Carter should go, as should Dawson, Rice and Bruce Sutter.

I would not be offended by Gossage, Parker, Sandberg or Trammell.
PeterStork
Sujuk
Level: 64

Posts: 82/1007
EXP: 2193984
For next: 20125

Since: 25.1.02
From: Chicagoland with Hoosiers, or "The Region"

Since last post: 101 days
Last activity: 6 hours
#10 Posted on 2.12.02 2044.56
Reposted on: 2.12.09 2045.30
Kile would have been put on the ballot after his career (it would have been ballot worthy,) so he deserves to be put on now. Does he deserve election? No. I'm a Cardinal fan, and always would like to see another red cap at Cooperstown, but the guy just didn't play good enough long enough. Another few years and he would have been on the bubble, but he didn't get those games and now he'll sit on the ballot for a spell before fading away.

Meanwhile, elect Gary Carter already. And take Sandberg while you're at it.

(edited by PeterStork on 2.12.02 2045)
jfkfc
Liverwurst
Level: 69

Posts: 178/1177
EXP: 2767721
For next: 102037

Since: 9.2.02

Since last post: 158 days
Last activity: 5 days
#11 Posted on 2.12.02 2102.51
Reposted on: 2.12.09 2104.10

    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    Eddie Murray should be a first ballot unanimous, but won't because these voters are idiots.
I agree on the voters being comprised of many idiots, but a unanimous first ballot entry? Eddie Murray? I think he'll make it in this year, but not unanimous. A player has to be a hands down superstar to get the red carpet to Cooperstown, and while Murray was great, he ain't Ruth.


    Also posted by Eddie Famous
    Carter should go, as should Dawson, Rice and Bruce Sutter.
If you want to vote in a catcher, vote in Carter like they did for Fisk. If you want to cote in one of the best players to ever play the game, let Carter get to Cooperstown via Greyhound. One of the game's better catchers of all time? Sure, but not one of the game's best players. Parker? One of the good players of his time, but not one of the game's best of all time. I could see Rice. he was an "Oh shit, look who's on deck!" guy for years and years, and he was great. Sutter? Like Lee Smith, a glorified save whore. There are just too many better relievers not in the Hall, and one is named Goose. If they want to put a releiver in, wait a year and put in Eck.

    Also posted by Eddie Famous
    I would not be offended by Gossage, Parker, Sandberg or Trammell.
I am die-hard on the pinstripes, but I just don't see Goose as one of the best of all time. Closers are tough, like catchers. There are good ones, but they aren't friggin' awesome ones. Seeing Trammell in the hall would make me vomit, and I would be hard-pressed to take the induction seriously ever again. Would Lou Whitaker be a lock too, then? You want to put a good fielding shortstop in, get me Belanger. The guy couldn't hit, but the only guy I have ever seen play a better shortstop is Oz.

Eddie Famous
Andouille
Level: 90

Posts: 426/2186
EXP: 7049991
For next: 138645

Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 54 min.
#12 Posted on 2.12.02 2203.21
Reposted on: 2.12.09 2203.33

    Originally posted by jfkfc

      Originally posted by Eddie Famous
      Eddie Murray should be a first ballot unanimous, but won't because these voters are idiots.
    I agree on the voters being comprised of many idiots, but a unanimous first ballot entry? Eddie Murray? I think he'll make it in this year, but not unanimous. A player has to be a hands down superstar to get the red carpet to Cooperstown, and while Murray was great, he ain't Ruth




No he's not Ruth. But he IS the most productive switch-hitter in baseball history, over 1900 RBI. Plus he's a 500-homer guy who wasn't one-dimensional (i.e. he also hit singles and doubles, plus he was a pretty darn good glove man in the first half of his career).

Big Bad
Scrapple
Level: 146

Posts: 620/6760
EXP: 38245111
For next: 268275

Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 8 days
Last activity: 6 hours
#13 Posted on 2.12.02 2329.27
Reposted on: 2.12.09 2329.47
Honestly, if Kile gets in, they should close the Hall down. He came nowhere close to having a HOF career.
jfkfc
Liverwurst
Level: 69

Posts: 181/1177
EXP: 2767721
For next: 102037

Since: 9.2.02

Since last post: 158 days
Last activity: 5 days
#14 Posted on 3.12.02 0828.15
Reposted on: 3.12.09 0829.02

    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    No he's not Ruth. But he IS the most productive switch-hitter in baseball history, over 1900 RBI. Plus he's a 500-homer guy who wasn't one-dimensional (i.e. he also hit singles and doubles, plus he was a pretty darn good glove man in the first half of his career).
I wasn't trying to knock him as a player, or disparage his career/numbers, but a first ballot unanimous choice? I can't see it happening. Not for anyone on this ballot.

I agree with Big Bad, also. Kile deserves it even less than Sutton did (and Sutton shouldn't be there, IMO).
edturtle
Linguica
Level: 21

Posts: 68/73
EXP: 42824
For next: 7120

Since: 24.1.02
From: HI in the middle, round on both ends!

Since last post: 4398 days
Last activity: 3674 days
#15 Posted on 3.12.02 1313.27
Reposted on: 3.12.09 1313.36
Murray and Ryno are the (likely) sure-fire inductees this year.

Blyleven, Kaat, and John are the starting pitchers I'd love to see put in. I don't see any of 'em geting in this year. And that's a shame since they're all deserving. I imagine all three will have to wait on the Vet Committee to get in - if it happens.

Lee Smith shouldn't even get a glimpse of Cooperstown until Goose and Sutter are settled in there. Interesting to note that the previous All-Time Saves Leader, Jeff Reardon, isn't even on the ballot anymore. I think that should give you an idea of Lee Smith's chances.

Carter and Dawson have a chance this year. I could see one of them included. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

Trammell, Rice and Keith Hernandez will continue to get no love. And cases can be made for all three.

If Steve Garvey could get all his illegitimate children to vote for him, he'd do better than he's been doing. =)
jfkfc
Liverwurst
Level: 69

Posts: 182/1177
EXP: 2767721
For next: 102037

Since: 9.2.02

Since last post: 158 days
Last activity: 5 days
#16 Posted on 3.12.02 1358.20
Reposted on: 3.12.09 1358.26

    Originally posted by edturtle
    Blyleven, Kaat, and John are the starting pitchers I'd love to see put in. I don't see any of 'em geting in this year. And that's a shame since they're all deserving.
I would love to read why you think any of those three are deserving, in your opinion...and you can't use "Because Sutton and Perry are in the HOF, so should they" arguement.
    Originally posted by edturtle
    Trammell, Rice and Keith Hernandez will continue to get no love. And cases can be made for all three.
Again, I would love to see the case you could make for Trammell.
edturtle
Linguica
Level: 21

Posts: 69/73
EXP: 42824
For next: 7120

Since: 24.1.02
From: HI in the middle, round on both ends!

Since last post: 4398 days
Last activity: 3674 days
#17 Posted on 3.12.02 1532.56
Reposted on: 3.12.09 1533.02

    Originally posted by jfkfc

      Originally posted by edturtle
      Blyleven, Kaat, and John are the starting pitchers I'd love to see put in. I don't see any of 'em geting in this year. And that's a shame since they're all deserving.
    I would love to read why you think any of those three are deserving, in your opinion...and you can't use "Because Sutton and Perry are in the HOF, so should they" arguement.


    I can't??? Awww, crud. =)

    All three were good pitchers, mostly for bad teams. Were any of them, say, Clemens, Unit, Maddux, etc.? Nope. But Blyleven is just shy of 300 wins, and in the Top 10 in K's. Kaat and John finished in the high-200's in wins, with respectable ERA's and K totals. Everyone's throwing Glavine's name around like he's getting close to becoming a sure thing HOFer, but there ain't a whole lot of difference 'tween Glavine and John, Kaat, 'cept for the Cy Young's.

    Let's just say that I'd argue with anyone tooth and nail that Blyleven is sure-fire. Take a look at his numbers. Bert was great. But, I could see the arguements against the last two.



      Originally posted by jfkfc

        Originally posted by edturtle
        Trammell, Rice and Keith Hernandez will continue to get no love. And cases can be made for all three.
      Again, I would love to see the case you could make for Trammell.


    Trammell was a damn fine offensive SS for his era. He has an MVP, WS ring, GG's and multiple AS appearances. In the context of Trammell's era, he was probably a Jeter-Nomar-type SS with a much better glove. I don't see a rush to put him in, I guess, but I think he's deserving. There's not THAT MUCH of a difference between that era's original Holy Trio of SS: Yount, Ripken and Trammell. Yount's in. Cal's a sure-thing. Trammell's just as deserving.

    For a good discussion on the HOF vote, go here:

    http://www.baseballprimer.com/clutch/archives/00005291.shtml#190posts
Eddie Famous
Andouille
Level: 90

Posts: 428/2186
EXP: 7049991
For next: 138645

Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 54 min.
#18 Posted on 3.12.02 1551.53
Reposted on: 3.12.09 1553.53
Don't know how I didn't put Ryno in there.


jfkfc
Liverwurst
Level: 69

Posts: 183/1177
EXP: 2767721
For next: 102037

Since: 9.2.02

Since last post: 158 days
Last activity: 5 days
#19 Posted on 4.12.02 1326.34
Reposted on: 4.12.09 1328.00

    Originally posted by edturtle
    Let's just say that I'd argue with anyone tooth and nail that Blyleven is sure-fire. Take a look at his numbers. Bert was great.
Blyleven, over 21 seasons (not counting '82, which he was probably hurt), he averaged 13.6 wins and 11.8 losses. Round up and you have a 14-12 pitcher. 1 20-win season (won't mention the 19 win season, because you seem to be focusing on notable stats and milestones) in 21 full seasons. I hear you on the K's, and don't get me wrong, Burt was a really good pitcher who I always liked, but he never dominated the sport and I always think that a guy who is HOF worthy is a guy who you can hold your head up high and say, "This guy is one of the greatest players of all time." I don't know anyone who thinks of Burt like that. Same thing with Trammell.
    Originally posted by edturtle

    In the context of Trammell's era, he was probably a Jeter-Nomar-type SS with a much better glove. I don't see a rush to put him in, I guess, but I think he's deserving. There's not THAT MUCH of a difference between that era's original Holy Trio of SS: Yount, Ripken and Trammell. Yount's in. Cal's a sure-thing. Trammell's just as deserving.

Trammell was a solid shortstop but under 2400 hits (once over 200), twice over 15 HR's, career BA of .285, 3 times over 20 SB, 3 times over 100 runs scored, and twice over 70 ribbies. I beg of you, at least batting, please please please do not put him in the same class as Jeter, Nomar, ARod, and Tejada (of course, projecting those four have careers reflective of their careers thus far). Putting him in the same class as Ripkin is unfair to Ripkin.
edturtle
Linguica
Level: 21

Posts: 70/73
EXP: 42824
For next: 7120

Since: 24.1.02
From: HI in the middle, round on both ends!

Since last post: 4398 days
Last activity: 3674 days
#20 Posted on 4.12.02 1536.25
Reposted on: 4.12.09 1541.53

    Originally posted by jfkfc

      Originally posted by edturtle
      Let's just say that I'd argue with anyone tooth and nail that Blyleven is sure-fire. Take a look at his numbers. Bert was great.
    Blyleven, over 21 seasons (not counting '82, which he was probably hurt), he averaged 13.6 wins and 11.8 losses. Round up and you have a 14-12 pitcher. 1 20-win season (won't mention the 19 win season, because you seem to be focusing on notable stats and milestones) in 21 full seasons. I hear you on the K's, and don't get me wrong, Burt was a really good pitcher who I always liked, but he never dominated the sport and I always think that a guy who is HOF worthy is a guy who you can hold your head up high and say, "This guy is one of the greatest players of all time." I don't know anyone who thinks of Burt like that. Same thing with Trammell.


    *shrug* I see your point. But going by that, I'd have the damnedest of times putting anyone in.

    As for Bert's W-L records, take a look at some of those teams he was on. Aside from the late-70's Pirates and mid-to-late-80's Twinkies, Bert was on some REALLY lousy teams. Bert was great. But I can see how he isn't perceived as a great.

    But damn was that curveball fantastic.



      Originally posted by jfkfc

        Originally posted by edturtle

        In the context of Trammell's era, he was probably a Jeter-Nomar-type SS with a much better glove. I don't see a rush to put him in, I guess, but I think he's deserving. There's not THAT MUCH of a difference between that era's original Holy Trio of SS: Yount, Ripken and Trammell. Yount's in. Cal's a sure-thing. Trammell's just as deserving.

      Trammell was a solid shortstop but under 2400 hits (once over 200), twice over 15 HR's, career BA of .285, 3 times over 20 SB, 3 times over 100 runs scored, and twice over 70 ribbies. I beg of you, at least batting, please please please do not put him in the same class as Jeter, Nomar, ARod, and Tejada (of course, projecting those four have careers reflective of their careers thus far). Putting him in the same class as Ripkin is unfair to Ripkin.


    OK, I was wrong about him winning an MVP. He SHOULDA won it in '87 though. =)

    That said, according to baseballreference.com, Trammell's most similiar player is Barry Larkin. And just re-checking the stats, Jeter and Trammell are more similiar than I expected. Sounds about right. I'd have no problem with Larkin, or (if he doesn't collapse completely) Jeter, in the Hall either.

    But I agree with you, Tramm's numbers aren't eye-popping - which is just as much a testament to the work of ARod in popping up the expectations at SS as anything. But Trammell really was great. He was just overshadowed by Yount and Ripken - and now by the emergence of the Holy Quartet. But I think you far underrate Trammell.

    That said, I'm not screaming for Tramm to be a HOFer. I don't expect it anytime soon either and I can dig people not seeing it.

    And as long as Garvey can't get in, I'm jazzed.

    Now someone slap some sportswriters around so they can put Goose in, damnit!
Pages: 1 2 NextThread ahead: Sock it Thome
Next thread: Glavine
Previous thread: Red Sox: Wheeling, dealing juggernauts
(976 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
The 7 - Baseball - Hall of Fame ballot 02-03Register and log in to post!

The W™ message board - 7 year recycle

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim
This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.187 seconds.