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The 7 - Pro Wrestling - It's time to turn Kurt Angle Register and log in to post!
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Scooter Trash
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#1 Posted on 21.11.02 2020.14
Reposted on: 21.11.09 2022.31
I have really been enjoying Smackdown over the past couple of months. However, there has been something about the show that, to me, has not seem right. It occured to me, that the show does not have a strong, seasoned, upper level babyface.

Edge is getting there, but may be a year away from the role. Rey Rey, same as above. They appear to be grooming Brock for the role, but his lack of experience seems to put him in the same catagory as Edge and Rey.

The remaining top talent are all playing heels, (Angle, Benoit, Eddie, TBS), or a close variation of a heel. I think if done correctly, Kurt Angle could seize the role of top baby face of the company. People want to cheer for him. There is no question that he has the ability to play the role similar to Bret Hart in that he can find a way to beat anyone. And god knows he has the charisma to hold the crowd in his hand.

People may argue that his prior attempt as a baby face did not fair well, but things have changed since then. He now has several people that he can have competitive feuds with. And if they were to remove the comedy from his character and gave him a reason to be focused and determined to be the best in the ring, I think he could give Smackdown a character that they have not had in a while; a veteran babyface that can own people in the ring or on the mic.
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Big Bad
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#2 Posted on 21.11.02 2118.02
Reposted on: 21.11.09 2118.11
The thing is, they can't really change Angle's character at all now. He is PERFECT in this role. He's fine as an "unofficial" babyface that the fans respect, but also love to boo and chant "you suck" at.
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#3 Posted on 21.11.02 2149.24
Reposted on: 21.11.09 2151.59
I'd say that Brock Lesnar will be filling that role, but that's just me. Add to the fact that he's feuding with Paul Heyman right now. I think it's safe to say he will be one of the most over guys in the comapany by the new year.
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#4 Posted on 21.11.02 2200.05
Reposted on: 21.11.09 2201.01
Both Angle and Benoit currently appear to be tweeners. Both of them got cheered tonight against the Guerreros but, they would get booed against Edge or Misterio. And, when the face each other, the crowd seems divided fairly evenly amongst both of them.

I don't think they will do the full fledged face turn for Angle because they probably turned Brock to play babyface vs. heel Angle later on. Personally, I think they should have left Heyman with Lesnar and continued Lesnar's run through the WWE until the babyface Angle could stop his run. But, maybe they have something planned that will make this way better. I did enjoy the SmackDown tonight, even the Big Show parts so, I'm fine with it so far.
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#5 Posted on 22.11.02 0149.50
Reposted on: 22.11.09 0153.20
Trade Jericho back to SD!, turn him face and let him have a crack at seeing how far he can get without HHH around.
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#6 Posted on 22.11.02 0211.17
Reposted on: 22.11.09 0211.27
Geez- didn't we leave all of the off-topic HHH bashing in another thread? I mean, damn... it is a thread about KURT ANGLE for crying out loud...
I LIKE Kurt Angle right now... he is a heel that does not seem to be cowardly... and he is in an interesting angle. Maybe a turn sometime down the road, but not quite yet. They need to settle the issue (in whatever way) with Benoit before that.
It's False
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#7 Posted on 22.11.02 0246.46
Reposted on: 22.11.09 0252.40
Turn Kurt face? Bad idea. He's perfect as a heel and his "Lex Luthor" bald head just makes him look that much more heelish.

If we're building to Brock/Angle for Wrestlemania, we'll need Kurt as the heel, since Brock was just turned.
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#8 Posted on 22.11.02 0257.17
Reposted on: 22.11.09 0259.02
Rey is due for knee surgery on the 5th, I believe, so that takes him and Edge out of the tag division. From Smackdown, they were refocusing the feud on just Guerreros against Benoit/Angle so I see one more match between the two teams at Armaggeddon where Benoit re-aligns with the Guerreros. That's just the way it looked to me on Smackdown.

Why can't we have a face Angle against a face Brock at WrestleMania? Just cut the cowardly acts out of Angle's character and leave it the way it is but place him against heels. Brock's character hasn't really changed at all either. The ring general against the young powerhouse, it's a classic matchup. They've setup that no one can out power Brock so in comes Angle, a guy who believes he can outwrestle Brock.

That also gives the excuse to feed Benoit to Brock leading up to Mania as a way to build up Lesnar's wrestling skills.
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#9 Posted on 22.11.02 0315.45
Reposted on: 22.11.09 0316.51
I think I'm mostly here to agree with Big Bad.

Personally, I continue to be perfectly happy with Kurt's tweener status. I can quite happily chant along with the "You suck" entrance, & then turn right around & cheer him (along with everybody else) in the match. He has that role totally nailed, & I'm nowhere near getting tired of it.

His tweener-ness (combined with Benoit's unaffiliated crankiness) is one of the things that's contributed to making the interplay of those 3 tag teams so good. Guerreros are absolute heels, Rey/Edge are absolute faces, & Kurt & Chris' tweener-ness lets us enjoy all the permutations. In the same way, leaving Kurt tweener allows the maximum flexability in how to use him in singles matches. (Wrestling-wise he can work with anybody; no point in constraining him character-wise.)
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#10 Posted on 22.11.02 0754.15
Reposted on: 22.11.09 0755.46

    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    I'd say that Brock Lesnar will be filling that role, but that's just me. Add to the fact that he's feuding with Paul Heyman right now. I think it's safe to say he will be one of the most over guys in the comapany by the new year.


I agree with you on what you said BigDaddy, and from Smackdown last night, it would appear that you are correct. However, in terms of long term benefit to the company, I will argue that Angle should have been the person turned rather than Brock.

Time will tell whether Brock possesses the tools to be not only a star in the ring, but also have the ability to represent the company outside of the wrestling ring. (t.v. interviews, commercials, etc.)

Angle on the other hand has proven to be a valuable spokesperson for the Company on various occasions and could easily step into a role similar to what Hogan did in the eighties; public appearances, charity events, talk shows, etc. I realize that he does it now, but it is not played up as much on television, probably due to not wanting to break character. Anyway, I'm beginning to ramble. I just feel that the Company is missing out on an opportunity to an instant top rate babyface that would benefit the company not only in terms of the product, but also in mainsteam entertainment.
dMr
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#11 Posted on 22.11.02 1017.12
Reposted on: 22.11.09 1018.36
I'm loving the Angle character the way he is just now so I dont see the need to change him. I sometimes feel the WWE try way too hard to pigeon-hole characters into stereotypical face/heel roles when in some cases they should trust the fans just to make their own minds up over who they should cheer for.

Obviously for the most part its cool to have guys to cheer for, and others to hate. but do we really have to see such ridiculous changes in character(eg recent Flair heel turn, Kane face turn) all the time.

It pisses me off a bit when you see a newly turned heel cowering from everyone and having to cheat to pull out a win over some face jobber when 2 weeks ago the same guy would have taken on all comers and probably only ever lost through a screw-job.

Aw, shit I've kinda gone of thread a bit haven't I? Sorry. Keeping Kurt as he is means they can put him in the ring with anyone, meaning he's on TV more, meaning I'm happy; end of.
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#12 Posted on 22.11.02 1142.46
Reposted on: 22.11.09 1144.23
I like what they're doing with Angle at the moment, because they're basically leaving it up to the fans whether to cheer him or boo him. He can do some heelish stuff one minute and face stuff the next.
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#13 Posted on 22.11.02 1243.57
Reposted on: 22.11.09 1259.01

    Originally posted by The 5th Horseman
    Both Angle and Benoit currently appear to be tweeners. Both of them got cheered tonight against the Guerreros but, they would get booed against Edge or Misterio. And, when the face each other, the crowd seems divided fairly evenly amongst both of them.

    I don't think they will do the full fledged face turn for Angle because they probably turned Brock to play babyface vs. heel Angle later on. Personally, I think they should have left Heyman with Lesnar and continued Lesnar's run through the WWE until the babyface Angle could stop his run. But, maybe they have something planned that will make this way better. I did enjoy the SmackDown tonight, even the Big Show parts so, I'm fine with it so far.




Maybe you are looking with your Benoit rose-colored glasses, but the crowd usually is about 80/20 when Angle and Benoit face each other. At SurSer, Angle was the most over face in the 3 team match. Conversely, the crowd was alarmingly quiet for Benoit.

That being said, I agree with most everyone else that Angle should not go full face. This tweener stuff is working for Kurt, so let it be.
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#14 Posted on 22.11.02 1300.09
Reposted on: 22.11.09 1300.57
There is no need to change Kurt Angle's personality, but he definitely should be a face by the time WM rolls around. They can do that without changing his personality considerably. Just match him up against heels instead of faces, problem solved.

Angle vs Brock, with Angle in the heel role, does not have the same impact that it would with Angle as a face.

1. Character identification. We know Kurt Angle much better than we know Brock Lesnar. Angle has had years of development in front of the fans and has discovered an appealing persona while Brock is still on the path of discovering his. Lesnar has gained popularity during his heel run, but it's been over the span of SIX MONTHS. That's hardly enough time to develop a stable character. The audience needs to be conditioned to Lesnar's persona before a face turn can have any real meaning.

2. Visually, Kurt Angle is a much more appealing babyface. Brock has the big giant muscle with eyes and teeth thing down. He's a scary looking monster, Angle isn't. Like the point above, we don't know Lesnar enough to know what his facial expressions mean. Angle has a much more expressive face than Brock Lesnar does. We know that when Angle's pissed, he's not going to be joking around like he usually is and he'll give his opponent hell. Lesnar, on the other hand, we always see as "ruthless" and "aggressive." WWE is showing no signs of changing that.

3. Lesnar's too green to be the top babyface. When workers discover their personas, traditionally in WWE, it is done much better with the guy as a heel. Austin, Rock, Undertaker, Angle and countless others have made names for themselves as heels before turning face. This is because more risks can be taken when the character isn't a top protagonist for the fans to identify with. A heel character can get away with much more than a face character can, because if the face does something stupid, the fans start to like them a lot less. Especially when they don't have the established personas that Austin & Rock do. Brock needs to stay a heel for a while longer (they can easily turn him back at this stage) and terrorize the WWE some more.

4. Angle's due. Angle has been given the midcard shaft on the last two consecutive WrestleManias despite being a main event player at every other point during the year. This year, it's kind of reversed itself where Angle has been stuck in the midcard all year (with the exception of Judgment Day or whatever crappy PPV that was during the summer). Regardless, I'm sure we're getting Angle in the main event one way or the other, but there has never been a more appropriate time for him to win the title.

Brock is a threat to anyone he faces right now in the WWE. When he's already a threat, how can he be an underdog? How can we have any real reason to get behind him when we already know he's ahead of everybody? Lesnar's character is a tremendous threat to Kurt Angle, especially. Both men have impressive amateur wrestling backgrounds, but Lesnar is the one who came into WWE and out-did Angle's first year on top by winning the title right away. He's destroyed Hogan and The Rock and can lay claim to destroying The Undertaker. He's scary, skillful, and ruthless. He's damn near impossible to beat and Kurt Angle stands to be the only person who has a chance of doing so, but can he?

If Brock's the face in Brock-Angle, Angle stands to be the only guy Brock can't beat, or the only opponent he needs to prove himself against. What happens when Brock wins? What's left?
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#15 Posted on 22.11.02 1315.56
Reposted on: 22.11.09 1323.51

    Originally posted by Torchslasher

      Originally posted by The 5th Horseman
      Both Angle and Benoit currently appear to be tweeners. Both of them got cheered tonight against the Guerreros but, they would get booed against Edge or Misterio. And, when the face each other, the crowd seems divided fairly evenly amongst both of them.

      I don't think they will do the full fledged face turn for Angle because they probably turned Brock to play babyface vs. heel Angle later on. Personally, I think they should have left Heyman with Lesnar and continued Lesnar's run through the WWE until the babyface Angle could stop his run. But, maybe they have something planned that will make this way better. I did enjoy the SmackDown tonight, even the Big Show parts so, I'm fine with it so far.




    Maybe you are looking with your Benoit rose-colored glasses, but the crowd usually is about 80/20 when Angle and Benoit face each other. At SurSer, Angle was the most over face in the 3 team match. Conversely, the crowd was alarmingly quiet for Benoit.



I don't have Benoit rose colored glasses. I don't care whether he's a babyface or a heel, I just enjoy his matches. Furthermore, I enjoy Angle just as much, actually I enjoy Angle more because of the comedy he adds. It just seems to me that the crowd is fairly equal between cheering for Benoit or Angle when they wrestle against each other on recent SmackDowns. That doesn't mean that the heat is not coming mostly from Angle. Maybe it is Kurt's heel heat that gets the cheers for Benoit but, the crowd seems fairly evenly split, IMO.
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#16 Posted on 22.11.02 1459.58
Reposted on: 22.11.09 1505.50

    Originally posted by emma
    Personally, I continue to be perfectly happy with Kurt's tweener status. I can quite happily chant along with the "You suck" entrance, & then turn right around & cheer him (along with everybody else) in the match. He has that role totally nailed, & I'm nowhere near getting tired of it.

    His tweener-ness (combined with Benoit's unaffiliated crankiness) is one of the things that's contributed to making the interplay of those 3 tag teams so good. Guerreros are absolute heels, Rey/Edge are absolute faces, & Kurt & Chris' tweener-ness lets us enjoy all the permutations. In the same way, leaving Kurt tweener allows the maximum flexability in how to use him in singles matches. (Wrestling-wise he can work with anybody; no point in constraining him character-wise.)



Hells yeah... I think I speak for plenty of people at the live show when I say that it'll never get old. You know, we love ya, Kurt, we'll cheer for you, but you still suck.
emma
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#17 Posted on 22.11.02 1702.57
Reposted on: 22.11.09 1707.49
One of my favourite ever Wienerville posts was from 2 months ago by Phantom, on the subject of turning Kurt face :
I boo because I care ...

(You gotta be careful around this place. There's no telling when some yahoo will pull up something you wrote months ago!)
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#18 Posted on 22.11.02 1902.05
Reposted on: 22.11.09 1910.45

    Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID
    Brock is a threat to anyone he faces right now in the WWE. When he's already a threat, how can he be an underdog? How can we have any real reason to get behind him when we already know he's ahead of everybody? Lesnar's character is a tremendous threat to Kurt Angle, especially.


He can be an underdog when he fights the only guy in the company who can out wrestle him. When Kurt goes out and whips Brock's ass in straight up wrestling (Brock, after all, never won an Olympics, a fact I'm sure we'll be reminded of many many times as the feud starts up proper), there's your story.

Brock's been beating everybody he faces, the only time he loses is when somebody ELSE screws up (tag team partner gets pinned, manager turns on him, etc.), but what happens when his own skills fail him? What does he do when somebody does something he does well, better?

That's how you make Brock the face. By making Angle better. And it wouldn't really be that hard to do. Then at Wrestlemania, Brock Lenser who cannot find a way to get around Angle's superior skills pulls out that extra something to get over him.
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#19 Posted on 22.11.02 2332.43
Reposted on: 22.11.09 2333.13

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Geez- didn't we leave all of the off-topic HHH bashing in another thread? I mean, damn... it is a thread about KURT ANGLE for crying out loud...
    I LIKE Kurt Angle right now... he is a heel that does not seem to be cowardly... and he is in an interesting angle. Maybe a turn sometime down the road, but not quite yet. They need to settle the issue (in whatever way) with Benoit before that.



I should have been more clear. I was not trying to bash HHH. I'm a Jerichoholic myself but what I was thinking was that if he was somewhere away from HHH, that would remove the crutch that sometimes get used to explain why Jericho isn't main-eventing. Kind of like "well let's give him the ball, see if he can run with it." And granted, this is a thread about Kurt Angle but I was responding to the first post bemoaning the lack of a true top babyface on SD!. Obviosuly, turning Kurt Angle face would be one option but if they don't want to turn Angle right now, I was trying to think of anyone else that could be the top babyface. As for the off-topic bashing thing; threads generally get closed after a week or so around here anyway. So, if that thread closes, does that mean we can never mention HHH again? In any event, if I annoyed you Pool-Boy, I apologize. 'Twas not my intent.
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#20 Posted on 23.11.02 1401.18
Reposted on: 23.11.09 1402.22
    Originally posted by Excalibur05
    He can be an underdog when he fights the only guy in the company who can out wrestle him. When Kurt goes out and whips Brock's ass in straight up wrestling (Brock, after all, never won an Olympics, a fact I'm sure we'll be reminded of many many times as the feud starts up proper), there's your story.

    Brock's been beating everybody he faces, the only time he loses is when somebody ELSE screws up (tag team partner gets pinned, manager turns on him, etc.), but what happens when his own skills fail him? What does he do when somebody does something he does well, better?

    That's how you make Brock the face. By making Angle better. And it wouldn't really be that hard to do. Then at Wrestlemania, Brock Lenser who cannot find a way to get around Angle's superior skills pulls out that extra something to get over him.



But, what happens when Brock DOES beat Angle? He's the best at everything he ever does? People don't generally accept flawless characters. Once Brock adds that little extra something to his arsenal, that's what you have. Brock needs to look really bad going into WrestleMania, without Heyman's guidance, for that to be believable. I don't think WWE is heading in that direction.

Besides, how can they make Angle seem believably better when he never plowed through The Rock and Hogan like Brock did? Clearly, Brock is better than Angle and it's a stretch to make Angle's wrestling skills all of a sudden better than Brock's. Right now, in the world of sports entertainment, Brock has it all over Angle in terms of skill. He has done everything better than Angle ever did in a shorter amount of time. He is more unbeatable than Angle ever was.

Angle has it all over Brock in terms of likeability and entertainment. Angle should be the face for that alone.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 23.11.02 1206)
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