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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Sports Guy goes political(sorta) Register and log in to post!
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Grimis
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#1 Posted on 21.11.02 1509.51
Reposted on: 21.11.09 1510.43
Click Here

Another homerun for Mr. Simmons...
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Bizzle Izzle
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#2 Posted on 21.11.02 1537.33
Reposted on: 21.11.09 1543.37
"If women are truly equal, then why do so many expect men to buy dinner on the first date? Why are guys always the ones buying introductory drinks at bars? Why are men forced to purchase engagement rings that sometimes cost more than new SUVs? Why do weddings revolve completely around brides, as grooms become hood ornaments for the entire day?"

Preach on my brother!!!


I can't stand these yentas that go around sticking their nose in other peoples business and ruining things for other people. What is their problem? It's a private freakin club god dammit! I guess they never stop to think that people like that Martha Burk and her National council of Women's Organizations might be one of the reasons these guys go to exclusive male clubs in the first place.
MoeGates
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#3 Posted on 21.11.02 1555.09
Reposted on: 21.11.09 1556.46
Well, I'm sort of half in agreement and half out of agreement. He makes a lot of good points I like. But I'll stick with the Augusta thing.

The reason (some) women want in is not becuase the boys are eating pizza and playing poker at Billy Bob's house and they want to crash the party. It's because Augusta is high profile. It's where the Masters is played. It's not like it's this club where the boys go to play a round of golf without getting bugged by the wife. They aren't trying to get into Joey's "we hate girls" club in the treehouse in the backyard.

It's entirely within their rights (and a good thing too) to protest and agitate, and try to embarress these guys, just as it's withing the Augusta club's rights to say "well, fuck you." Notice, for instance, the women aren't suing, (I think, are they?). They're trying to a) embarress the guys into letting the women in, (which won't work) and b) trying to expose which people have memberships in Augusta, and hopefully get people to disinvest from their companies or whatever (this has a much better chance) prompting either a change in policy or prompting people to start withdrawing memberships.

The guys at Augusta are entirely within their rights not to admit women. However, I am also entirely within my rights to say "you know what, I don't want to invest my money in people's companies that want to belong to such a club, nor do I want to watch a golfing events by an organization that plays at such a club."

Of course, not watching golf isn't really that much of a sacrifice.

EDIT:

"If women are truly equal, then why do so many expect men to buy dinner on the first date? Why are guys always the ones buying introductory drinks at bars? Why are men forced to purchase engagement rings that sometimes cost more than new SUVs? Why do weddings revolve completely around brides, as grooms become hood ornaments for the entire day?"


Preach on my brother!!!


This is a ridiculous arguement. You don't want to buy dinner on the first date? Then don't. No one is making you. Same goes with introductory drinks. Same goes with engagement rings. Mine cost 10 bucks, and if my wife was the kind of person who expected a $10,000 ring, I wouldn't have married her. Same goes for our wedding, which we both totally planned together.

In addition, all the women are doing is shouting about how they want in. The same way Simmons (and plenty of other guys) are shouting about they don't want to have to buy drinks at bar to get laid.

Besides, I really guess these women who want into Augusta are not the kind of folks to wait around at bars for men to buy them drinks.


(edited by MoeGates on 21.11.02 1702)
Bizzle Izzle
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#4 Posted on 21.11.02 1930.26
Reposted on: 21.11.09 1933.02
"Preach on my brother!!!

This is a ridiculous arguement."

Not really. I was commenting on the author's comments on the hypocrasy.

And you are right about them not suing Augusta. Augusta is within their legal right so the women can't sue. What they are doing instead is using extortion to try to get their way. The tactics are similar to Jesse Jackson's. If they don't get their way they are going to protest and harass the members of the private club. They will harass the companies that the members work for unless the members push for allowing women or quit their membership.

I'm no fan of golf so I don't know much about the Masters. But I did hear it's not part of the PGA tour. So it's a private tournament right?
Grimis
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#5 Posted on 21.11.02 1933.32
Reposted on: 21.11.09 1933.32

    Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle
    "Their tactics are similar to Jesse Jackson's.


Funny you mention that because he wants in on the pie, mainly because he's a media whore...


    Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle
    "But I did hear it's not part of the PGA tour. So it's a private tournament right?


Correct...
Big Bad
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#6 Posted on 21.11.02 2130.41
Reposted on: 21.11.09 2132.35
Here's my problem with the Augusta situation. I know that Hootie and the boys aren't the most permissive bunch in the world, but...

...women DO play at Augusta. All the time. The members' wives are all basically members anyway, and I believe they're allowed to play if accompanied by their husbands or another member. Annika Sorenstam and Karrie Webb have been invited to play rounds at Augusta too.
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#7 Posted on 21.11.02 2234.00
Reposted on: 21.11.09 2240.00
Not really. I was commenting on the author's comments on the hypocrasy

what hypocracy? If he quoted one of the women leading the protests saying "I want to get into Augusta, and then I want the guys there buy me drinks," then it would be hypocracy. I'd wager if you asked these particular women (who are not ALL women, as Simmons seems to think), they'd agree with him on this issue (as I do, by the way). That's why it's a ridiculous arguement.

What they are doing instead is using extortion to try to get their way.

Extortion is illegal. These ladies aren't threatening to get Joey Numbers to wack the Augusta club members and throw their bodies in the Gowanus canal. What these ladies are doing is completely legal, just as Augusta not admitting them is. There is nothing wrong or illegal with bringing attention to something you think is wrong, and trying to change it through whatever legal means you can think of. This is why we live in America, not Iraq.

Just becuase someone does something you don't like, doesn't mean it's a criminal act. Kind of like how some conservatives refer to something explicitly permitted by the 16th amendment to the COnstitution of the United States as "stealing."

Grimis
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#8 Posted on 22.11.02 0623.53
Reposted on: 22.11.09 0626.50

    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Here's my problem with the Augusta situation. I know that Hootie and the boys aren't the most permissive bunch in the world, but


That's the funny thing about Hootie Johnson: he's a BIG deal in South Carolina because of his progressiveness. From USA Today on October 21st...

The belief that Johnson, who declined to be interviewed, will one day spearhead a move to admit a female member is based on his track record:

* He was instrumental in a $25 million donation from Darla Moore for the University of South Carolina School of Business. It was Johnson's idea to name it the Moore School of Business, believed to be the only one named after a woman at a major U.S. university.

* Johnson has supported African-Americans such as Clyburn for public office. As a banker, he appointed African-Americans and women to his corporate boards. He made loans to minorities when others wouldn't.

* In the wake of the 1968 Orangeburg Massacre three South Carolina State University students participating in civil rights protests were killed by state troopers Johnson worked on a plan for the peaceful desegregation of the state's colleges and universities.

* Current South Carolina Gov. Jim Hodges was quoted in The State in Columbia, saying Johnson was the first businessman who pushed to have the Confederate flag removed from the state house in Columbia.

"He's a progressive, thoughtful person," says John West, governor of South Carolina from 1971-75. "A better characterization would be of a man who has principles and sticks to them."


Click Here



    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Just becuase someone does something you don't like, doesn't mean it's a criminal act. Kind of like how some conservatives refer to something explicitly permitted by the 16th amendment to the COnstitution of the United States as "stealing."


There is a body of work in existance by several researchers and scholars that the 16th amendment was never properly ratified. Take that however you will. I'm more concerned that at least 28 percent of my income is confiscated before I ever see any of it.
Bizzle Izzle
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#9 Posted on 22.11.02 0952.59
Reposted on: 22.11.09 0955.26
While there is a legal definintion for extortion, it's not the only definition for the word. This is the definition I refer to when saying these groups "extort" : To obtain from another by coercion or intimidation.

Now, the mafia says to you "do what we say or we will put all the union members on 'slow down' and shut down your business." Martha Burk and her cronies say "do what we want or we will harass your club, harass the network that carries your private tournament, harass your members, harass the investors of your members companies, and harass the companies your members work for, and harass the advertisers who run commercials on the broadcast of your tournament." Ok, one is illegal and one is not. But what are the fundamental differences?

"Take that however you will. I'm more concerned that at least 28 percent of my income is confiscated before I ever see any of it."

Holy crap dude. Do you know who I would KILL to get 28 percent? (or are you talking about 28 percent of your salary only going to the federal income tax?). If my next paycheck only had 28 percent removed leaving me with a whopping 72% of my own money I would be the happiest guy on the planet. My sheer hatred of the Democrats and all leftists in general comes from the fact that every two weeks I get my check, look at what I really made, then look at what I am left with and see that 43-45% of my hard earned cash was stolen from me.
Grimis
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#10 Posted on 22.11.02 0959.54
Reposted on: 22.11.09 1005.04
That's just the federal income tax, not talking about payroll taxes and the huge chunk the state of Maryland helps themselves to.
MoeGates
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#11 Posted on 22.11.02 1105.13
Reposted on: 22.11.09 1105.25
My sheer hatred of the Democrats and all leftists in general comes from the fact that every two weeks I get my check, look at what I really made, then look at what I am left with and see that 43-45% of my hard earned cash was stolen from me.

You do understand that that money goes toward such things as protecting us from attacks don't you? Not to mention the fact that if your house catches on fire, someone (most likely a unionized municipal worker) will put it out? Or the fact that you don't have to drive to work on dirt roads? It's not like the governement takes half your income every week and gives it to Barbra Streisand and Al Sharpton.


The Democrats and Republicans dither around the edges on taxes. Your payroll taxes aren't going anywhere. Your local taxes aren't going anywhere, unless you think your city is so safe you don't need cops. Over half of your Federal taxes go to pay for defense and interest on the National Debt - those are Reagan inventions, not the Democrats.

The Republican party lives in a fantasy world. A world in which you don't have to pay taxes, but recieve the same governement services. The savings all come out of welfare queens, or government bureaucracy, or (my favorite) the increased revenue you are sure to get from decreasing taxes (this is my favorite delusional GOP "fact,"), or other such easy targets. But it's always the same: you get lowered taxes, but you don't have to make any sacrifices: other people maybe, but not you of course.

Reality is different. Reality says one side of the budget sheet has to balance with the other. Republicans ignore that and you get humongous budget deficits. This means more interest, which means more spending, which means more taxes in the long run for you, and more for your kids.

This isn't just a federal thing. Here in New York we're currently fucked, because Guiliani decided to spend a shitload of money giving tax breaks to corporations (another form of "extortion," threatening to leave the city of you have to pay taxes like everyone else) political patronage, and one-shot pet projects instead of paying down our ENORMOUS debt and investing in the long-term health of the city. Sure, maybe we (well, corporations) wouldn't have gotten as many tax breaks in the short term. But we're paying for it now. Through the nose.

Jesus, nobody like taxes. Everyone likes money. I'm no different. But you don't get something for nothing, no matter how much the GOP tries to convince you otherwise.
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#12 Posted on 22.11.02 1118.41
Reposted on: 22.11.09 1121.02
Uh, you are aware that 28% (or 45%, whatever) of your paycheck would have to be given to the federal government when income tax season rolls around?

Think about it. If, for example, you're in the 28% tax bracket, then you're paying that percentage of your income for federal programs. If you got all your paycheck, you'd still have to pay 28% when April 15th rolled around. The federal government takes money out of each paycheck so everybody's not freaking out about having to pay $17,000 when tax day rolls around.

Not to mention the entire concept of a tax refund is when they took too much money out of your paycheck, and who doesn't love a refund?
vsp
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#13 Posted on 22.11.02 1153.55
Reposted on: 22.11.09 1156.41

    Originally posted by TheCow
    Not to mention the entire concept of a tax refund is when they took too much money out of your paycheck, and who doesn't love a refund?


That refund is, in effect, the government repaying the interest-free loan it "borrowed" from you over the year, over and above the taxes it's entitled to keep.

I'm not saying that I don't like seeing money in my mailbox, but if you can adjust your withholdings to be as close to zero-sum as possible on April 15th, you're better off in the long run.

PalpatineW
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#14 Posted on 24.11.02 2059.20
Reposted on: 24.11.09 2059.41
Moe -

We're paying more in taxes now then previous generations of Americans. More than they did at the turn of the century, or the middle of the century. Do you mean to tell me that the abundance and quality of government services have gone up as steadily as our taxes have?

Also, why should ONE CENT of my money go to pay someone else who hasn't earned it? For most of this country's existence, we did not have broad social programs. For you to act as if they are part and parcel of living in the US is misleading - we seem to have gotten on just fine without them. Defense is a completely legitimate function of government. We can argue about the how's and where's, but I don't think any serious person will advocate the destruction of the US army in favor of citizens defending themselves from foreign powers. But, darn it, if you want to give clean needles to heroin addicts, you can pay for it yourself. Besides, government is notoriously corrupt and bloated - after all, it's free from market pressure. So I have a hard time believing that government will feed the hungry better than private citizens and charities.
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#15 Posted on 25.11.02 0931.20
Reposted on: 25.11.09 0931.37
we're paying more in taxes now then previous generations of Americans. More than they did at the turn of the century, or the middle of the century.

You're going to have to give me some stats to back this up. The top rate was 90% during the 50s.

Do you mean to tell me that the abundance and quality of government services have gone up as steadily as our taxes have?

No, but our military (and cost thereof) sure has.

For most of this country's existence, we did not have broad social programs. For you to act as if they are part and parcel of living in the US is misleading - we seem to have gotten on just fine without them.

You and I must have very different ideas of "gotten on fine." I think of the Great Depression, 9 year olds working 16 hour days, 12 people living in a 200 square foot tenement with no windows, and people losing their life savings and family farms because the banker screwed up as not getting on so fine.

Defense is a completely legitimate function of government. We can argue about the how's and where's, but I don't think any serious person will advocate the destruction of the US army in favor of citizens defending themselves from foreign powers. But, darn it, if you want to give clean needles to heroin addicts, you can pay for it yourself. Besides, government is notoriously corrupt and bloated - after all, it's free from market pressure. So I have a hard time believing that government will feed the hungry better than private citizens and charities..

You won't get that much of an argument from me. But really, you don't think there is more bloat and corruption in the 285 billion dollar defense budget than there is in the 50 billion Health and Human Services budget (which is I'm guessing would "feed the hungry" or whatever).

Look, we have different priorities on what the givernment should spend money on. What I never understand about conservatives is that they don't look at the big expenditures, namely social security and medicare (well, both parties are guilty of this one), defense, and the debt, when looking at the budget. They suggest all these nickle and dime expenditure cuts like they're costing your average guy a third of their salary. Meanwhile, Trent Lott's state gets contracts for fancy airplanes that cost 10x the amount each, and nothing's said about it. And all the time, we're getting our self more and more into debt.

It's like if my solution to my personal budget crunch was to put more money on my credit cards, not even consider moving into a smaller apartment or cutting any big expenditures, and stop buying a cup of coffee in the morning.

ges7184
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#16 Posted on 26.11.02 1253.57
Reposted on: 26.11.09 1259.09
How the heck did this turn into a tax thread?

BTW, I basically agree with the Sports Guy here. And I really don't see Augusta as any different than a kid's treehouse club in the middle of nowhere. It's just the kids are a lot older, and they have a lot more money.
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#17 Posted on 26.11.02 1313.47
Reposted on: 26.11.09 1318.45
And the biggest event in a major sport is played there.

Yeah I called Golf a major sport. What?
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#18 Posted on 27.11.02 2046.46
Reposted on: 27.11.09 2048.07

    Originally posted by ges7184
    How the heck did this turn into a tax thread?

    BTW, I basically agree with the Sports Guy here. And I really don't see Augusta as any different than a kid's treehouse club in the middle of nowhere. It's just the kids are a lot older, and they have a lot more money.



Sorry, I think I helped jump this thread off-topic.

As far as the Sports Guy colum in question: it sucked. The column was downright schizophrenic. In one sentence he defended the right of Hootie and the boys at Augusta to keep the club single-sex, and in the next breath he derided them mercilessly as some sort of sexist dinosaurs from the backwaters of the South. Personally, I don't think it's anyone's damned business. I mean, no one complains that Kweisi Mfume doesn't lobby equally for white people (and nor should they, for the record).
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