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30.9.07 0103
The 7 - Pro Wrestling - Survivor Series: What the hell!?!?!?
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evilwaldo
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#61 Posted on 18.11.02 1146.37
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1147.12
Didn't see it but here are my thoughts:

HBK winning was the only way to blow off the HHH feud but it was gay nonetheless. HBK does not deserve another run at the top. He is a part-time wrestler from a past era that most current fans know nothing of and could care less about. For him to be a credible champion he has to defend the belt at house shows and tour with the guys but I doubt that will happen. Donít get me wrong, I like HBK but his time has passed. RVD and Booker should not have gone out first. They would have benefited the most from a long run in the chamber even to lose in the end, as it would have built them up even more in the eyes of the fans. But then again, this is Raw booking which makes no sense and holds no logic in the universe. Even Chaos Theory canít explain it.

I can live with the Big Show winning only because of the circumstances surrounding Brock's injury. IMO, for a Show reign to work they have to job the belt to Angle before the next PPV. Maybe have Brock cause Show to lose to Angle. That way you can have a Brock/Show rematch in a month or two with Brock going over to end that feud, then have the new face Brock chase Angle until Wrestlemania with Heyman throwing up challengers to take out Brock only to have them all fail. That would cement Brock as a face in the eyes of the fans and could give a nice heel push to a new wrestler in the process.
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#62 Posted on 18.11.02 1154.31
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1154.31
Obviously, there was someplace to go with this Brock push: someone had to beat him. Someone had to make a name for himself. This was WWE's opportunity to build a star and tell an epic story in the world of wrestling, which the lack of has led to declining ratings. At least WWE tried to build up the Big Show as a star, but I don't think he's the answer.

See the post by InVerse above. Brock doesn't need to be undefeatable to be over. In fact, I'd say that at this point, being undefeatable would be terrible for his character. Are you really going to get behind the guy who you know is going to win EVERY match he's in? No. Sure people did with Goldberg, but even then people got tired of seeing him win.


HBK has had it all over HHH during this run that HHH is due for a win over HBK, which is probably how he wants it, but dramatically-speaking it makes more sense as opposed to HHH-Foley where Foley didn't even get one victory over HHH.
It was really a win-win scenario for HHH last night and, despite the injury, he'll be back on RAW either tonightor next week to ruin everyone's career like he always does.


Says who exactly? You? Shawn Michaels has been played up as the guy who has Hunter's number. Logic doesn't dictate that Hunter HAS to pin him. If HHH were the face, then sure, maybe, but he's not.

And if and that's a big if, he makes it to RAW sometime in the next few weeks, I don't think that he'll "ruin" anyone's career. He's not the champion, according to the rules of the show, HE'S in the chase now. He's the one who looks bad for losing his title to the guy whose back got cracked by his sledgehammer a few months ago.

Knowing HHH, though, it's also another way politically to keep himself looking better than everyone else.

Oh, YEAH. He looked great grabbing at his throat and trying to avoid everybody else's spots so that he didn't get hurt worse. He looked AWESOME when he wasn't even involved in half the match, putting the spotlight on everybody else. He WAS HOLDING EVERYBODY DOWN when he had to have Shawn's help to get out of the Walls of Jericho.

Keeping all of this in mind, I don't see how anything good can come out of it in the longrun.

Well then watch the show, why don't you? Keeping this in mind, you're not trying hard to think at all. You're just spewing the same bullshit that everybody spewed before the Pay Per View. Oh Big Show Sux! Oh, HHH is a mark for himself! Too bad that Big Show is being booked well and that HHH really never looked like he was going to win last night then, huh?

Big Show is either going to lose it to Angle or back to Lesnar so they can have their WrestleMania match, which means even less now because Brock is no longer undefeated.

Because being "undefeated" means so much for his career? Like it did for Angle? If Brock can't come out of this with his heat in tact, then he should never have been a main eventer to begin with. He should be over because he's over, not because he can't job.

HBK's reign has potential for matches we've never seen before (HBK-Jericho, HBK-Booker, HBK-RVD), but must inevitably end with a Pedigree so that HHH can avenge all of the trauma HBK has caused him.

Like the sledgehammer to the back that caused him to be out from Summerslam to Survivor Series? Umm...Wait...What I meant to say was, for Pedigreeing him after the "DX Reunion"...Wait...No what I meant to say was...It DOESN'T HAVE to end with HHH going over if that isn't how the story goes.



(edited by Excalibur05 on 18.11.02 1155)
Ana Ng
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#63 Posted on 18.11.02 1204.28
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1213.52
You know.. it wasn't so much the results of last night's matches that were the problem. HBK is the champ.. that doesn't bother me, fine. Brock's hurt? Well, then I guess I can understand that, even if I don't have to like it. Fine. Brock still looked like the badass that he is.

The problem for me was that the matches themselve were just not good. Pacing all night seemed kinda slow, and with the exception of the tag match and the elimination chamber, the matches all seemed very short. And then the chamber seemed downright interminable.

I have a pretty easy time going into mark mode when I'm actually watching. I have never had a hard time enjoying things even when the internet hates them. But god, I thought this pay-per-view was dull. What am I missing here? Everyone else seemed to love it.
dMr
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#64 Posted on 18.11.02 1220.02
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1227.10

    Originally posted by evilwaldo
    HBK does not deserve another run at the top. He is a part-time wrestler from a past era that most current fans know nothing of and could care less about.



Yeah, you could hear a pin drop in MSG when he pinned Trips right?
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#65 Posted on 18.11.02 1228.20
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1229.04

    Originally posted by dMr

      Originally posted by evilwaldo
      HBK does not deserve another run at the top. He is a part-time wrestler from a past era that most current fans know nothing of and could care less about.



    Yeah, you could hear a pin drop in MSG when he pinned Trips right?


cf. Hulk Hogan's last run with the WWE Belt.

How did that work out for them?
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#66 Posted on 18.11.02 1231.47
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1234.13
When people say Big Show's title reign will be a disaster, people say "Why don't you watch it and let it play out?"

IWC: "Merging WCW and ECW into the no-personality 'Alliance' will ensure that the Invasion angle sucks."
IWC that thinks they're better than the rest of the IWC: "Why don't you watch it and let it play out?"

IWC: "The nWo will be a terrible angle that will self-destruct."
IWC that thinks they're better than the rest of the IWC: "Why don't you watch it and let it play out?"

IWC: "The HHH/Kane murder angle will be an awful angle."
IWC that thinks they're better than the rest of the IWC: "Why don't you watch it and let it play out?"

And then you WONDER why we doubt the almighty GENIUS that is the WWE booking?
dMr
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#67 Posted on 18.11.02 1242.28
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1243.13

    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

      Originally posted by dMr

        Originally posted by evilwaldo
        HBK does not deserve another run at the top. He is a part-time wrestler from a past era that most current fans know nothing of and could care less about.



      Yeah, you could hear a pin drop in MSG when he pinned Trips right?


    cf. Hulk Hogan's last run with the WWE Belt.

    How did that work out for them?



Not saying it's gonna be a roaring success this time either. Just a bit confused by the idea of HBK as someone that 'most current fans' (not the IWC) couldnt give a damn about
SKLOKAZOID
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#68 Posted on 18.11.02 1345.35
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1350.09
Lesnar may be more talented in the ring than Goldberg, but he has not attained Goldberg's level of charisma/stardom. Hell, when he hasn't even gone that far, it's hard to label Lesnar as the guy who should be going over at WM for the title.

Granted, Lesnar does have Vince marketing at the helm (supposedly), but he still has not proven his range as a performer. He gets his chance to do that now, but until he DOES prove it, WWE should be thinking of other things for WrestleMania. He's no Steve Austin or Rock as it stands, and those are the people the fans want to see.

The best way to have booked Lesnar/Angle for WrestleMania was to keep Lesnar as the unbeatable monster, who could destroy anyone he wanted using both wrestling and power moves, who finally meets someone who can MAYBE out-wrestle him in Kurt Angle. Lesnar would have both wrestling and power moves at his disposal while all Angle has is his mat-wrestling background to stop him. Now, where's the drama?

Now, how can they pull off Angle vs Lesnar with Lesnar as the face? I mean, WWE will do it, but that doesn't mean it's the best way to go. After seeing Lesnar dominate for so long, what's Lesnar's struggle? What's he trying to prove?

They ruined the story last night and started a new one. You may be excited for a new direction, but I think it could be the wrong one. If WWE can spin this one around into something good, which is very unlikely given their track record with Steph at the helm, I'll order WrestleMania, but I highly doubt that I will.

In my earlier post, I guess I should have been more clear as to how the defeat taints Lesnar's character and the possible Lesnar/Angle match. It's not because Lesnar was "unbeatable." We've seen RVD and countless others almost beat him on many an occasion. The reason being unbeatable was important was that it was something WWE was dangling over the fans. Who would be the first do defeat Lesnar? Well, apparently, it was Big Show, and not any of the usual suspects the fans actually wanted to see beat him. Hogan and Rock were sacrificed so the Big Show could get over. I don't think that's what they had in mind when they started the push and that's the problem.

Now that the first phase of Lesnar's career is over, we move on to the second one: development. How does Lesnar cope with this loss? There is a lot of risk involved, but the fact remains: we don't know how he'll cope. We can't predict his behavior and Lesnar's next movements will the the most crucial in determining if he actually can turn into a character worth caring about. If Lesnar returns to kick some more ass, it's more of the same. His current character is hardly something for people to understand and connect with. When Ivan Drago turned face after killing Apollo Creed, he did it with one powerful sentence: "I fight for me." Can Brock do the same? Until he does, I have every reason to think that this is going to hurt Brock's career and possibly even WrestleMania.


    Originally posted by Excalibur05

    Well then watch the show, why don't you? Keeping this in mind, you're not trying hard to think at all. You're just spewing the same bullshit that everybody spewed before the Pay Per View. Oh Big Show Sux! Oh, HHH is a mark for himself! Too bad that Big Show is being booked well and that HHH really never looked like he was going to win last night then, huh?


It looks like you read the words I was typing but pulled out a different meaning. That wasn't what I was saying at all.

I said that Big Show was being booked well and that he deserved the opportunity to return the investment, but that it was at the expense of the time that was invested into the Brock Lesnar angle and the potential Angle/Lesnar storyline.

HHH is a mark for himself, but that's not nearly as important as the negative impact he is having on the company. HHH can feel however he want about himself. Eventually, everything on RAW ends up leading back to him and the ratings continue to plummet. They need to take him out of the equation or find some way to use him so that he's actually an asset to WWE. Right now, he isn't.


If Brock can't come out of this with his heat in tact, then he should never have been a main eventer to begin with. He should be over because he's over, not because he can't job.

Brock was given the push he was given regardless of whether or not it worked with the fans. WWE has a habit of making stars by making you like who they want you to like. It's why HHH became the champion, if you remember back to his first and second reigns. They wanted someone besides Rock & Austin at the top, so they put HHH on their level regardless of his appeal. The reigns were not successful, even his third reign is debateable, but they shoved him down everyone's throats until they liked him.

RAW's ratings continually go down despite what the fans are blatantly rejecting.


It DOESN'T HAVE to end with HHH going over if that isn't how the story goes.

There's a difference between good storytelling and bad storytelling. In good storytelling, the end results justify the means of getting there. In bad storytelling, the writer just makes a bunch of stuff happen and leaves a bunch of holes and events unresolved. This is what happened at WrestleMania 2K.
redsoxnation
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#69 Posted on 18.11.02 1452.52
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1453.35

    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

      Originally posted by DVD
      So as long as the Dudleys are back in business on Raw, as soon as Bradshaw's healthy, bring him over(I don't care how they do it) and reform the APA.

    No. No. No. No. No. No. No APA.

    And did they even say whether D-Von was going to be on Raw? Until we see him on Raw, we can't make that assumption. And unless they turn the Dudleyz heel & cut out the "Wazzup" spot and the overused table spots, I couldn't really care less if the Dudleyz were reunited or not.






Keep Bradshaw as far away from SD as humanly possible.
evilwaldo
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#70 Posted on 18.11.02 1507.53
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1507.53

    Originally posted by dMr


    Not saying it's gonna be a roaring success this time either. Just a bit confused by the idea of HBK as someone that 'most current fans' (not the IWC) couldnt give a damn about



Most fans look at HBK as a novelty and someone who is from a prior era and is entertaining but not deserving of the championship.
InVerse
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#71 Posted on 18.11.02 1755.29
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1759.08

    Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID
    Now, how can they pull off Angle vs Lesnar with Lesnar as the face? I mean, WWE will do it, but that doesn't mean it's the best way to go. After seeing Lesnar dominate for so long, what's Lesnar's struggle? What's he trying to prove?


Oh, I don't know. How about that he can come back from an injury and make it back to the top? If Angle were the heel champion going into Wrestlemania, he could easily cut promos about how he broke his neck in a match and still won but Brock couldn't even tough out a little cracked rib that he'd had 2 weeks to recover from. You could have Heyman claiming that Brock is nothing without him and how once he decided that Brock's time was over, Brock lost the title. There's plenty for Lesnar to prove.
darkdragoon
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#72 Posted on 18.11.02 1817.16
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1818.07

    Originally posted by Super Shane Spear
    WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT FROM HIM?? He's been awesome since he's starting on Brock. Do you think Benoit would've taken those chairshots on Smackdown with his Frankenstein neck? Do you....you know what. I'm just going to fucking quit right now, but it's not worth me crippling my fingers to type to a brick wall


Oh, so Show suddenly lost a hundred pounds and is back to doing the super chokeslam and all those "cool" moves that got people to pay attention to him in the first place? Plus he finally showed that getting thrown in a match with Hogan in his PPV debut never spoiled him?

Let's see Benoit's already crippling himself by continuing to do the diving headbutt...plus he's not 80% godlike among the IWC for coming to the WWE and NOT 2nd rope Tombstoning everyone...plus he sold for Billy Gunn and Spike, why wouldn't he for Brock who wouldn't need to bring in weapons to look credible. Are you a Kevin Sullivan mark or something? No wonder we "Zonies" have such a rep...
DarrylTheHitman
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#73 Posted on 18.11.02 1824.35
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1824.37
"Zonies"? Admittedly, this place seems like the Twilight Zone sometimes but what have I missed (this time) ?
redsoxnation
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#74 Posted on 18.11.02 1837.47
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1837.48
Ok, lets get to the main problem before this degenerates further than the level set by the Politics threads.
The reason Big Slug was given a World Title reign was because Lesnar was injured is the general consensus. Now, would Lesnar have been injured if he hadn't been facing Big Slug in House Shows preparing for a 4 minute classic? Perhaps, but in all likelihood no. Thus, if the WWF/E had not decided to move Big Slug from Jeff Hardy's whipping boy (insert own jokes) to world title contender overnight, they would not have placed themselves in this position. Now, any talk of the Lennox Lewis/Lesnar match would have to be viewed as comedic. Does this have to have the Goldberg taser effect? No, as Angle was able to survive having his winning streak stopped by Tazz in the same building, and it has not hampered his career. Now, the big question is: Is Lesnar another Angle, who flourished after the winning streak, or is he another No Sold Berg or Tatanka, wrestlers who were never the same after the streak ended?
darkdragoon
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#75 Posted on 18.11.02 1843.45
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1843.54

    Originally posted by DarrylTheHitman
    "Zonies"? Admittedly, this place seems like the Twilight Zone sometimes but what have I missed (this time) ?


Zonie=person from Arizona, at least that seems to be the popular term these days.
Big Bad
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#76 Posted on 18.11.02 1904.36
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1906.47

    Does this have to have the Goldberg taser effect? No, as Angle was able to survive having his winning streak stopped by Tazz in the same building, and it has not hampered his career. Now, the big question is: Is Lesnar another Angle, who flourished after the winning streak, or is he another No Sold Berg or Tatanka, wrestlers who were never the same after the streak ended?


Here is the difference: Angle had his first loss when his career was only two months old, and he lost to a wrestler that came in with great fanfare (on one night, at least). Lesnar has his first loss after months of being built up as an unstoppable beast, winning the world title, and getting a rep as a "legend killer." Also, his first loss was to a guy that's not even over.
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#77 Posted on 18.11.02 1922.24
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1925.12

    Originally posted by evilwaldo
    Most fans look at HBK as a novelty and someone who is from a prior era and is entertaining but not deserving of the championship.


Actually, I took a poll of every single wrestling fan in the world (if you weren't contacted, it's because you already made your opinion clear on the Internet) and the general consensus is that Shawn Michaels is far more over than any other possible contender for the title except Goldberg. Apparently, though, HHH managed to talk Vince out of making him job to someone who doesn't work for the company and had no intention of competing in the Elimination Chamber. It's hard to believe that HHH would actually stoop so low as to deprive the Japanese feds of having their very own Raw champion, but I guess that just goes to show what a dick HHH truly is. The next thing you know, he's going to refuse some dying child's Make-A-Wish Foundation dream of awesome bombing Hunter off the top of the Eiffel Tower in a 3 way dance with David Arquette for the title. It's a good thing Al Gore isn't president because HHH would likely make him turn off the Internet due to all the negative criticism directed at him.
darkdragoon
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#78 Posted on 18.11.02 1939.44
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1940.40
Because Shawn is the only one who hasn't been jobbed out...and Goldberg is only slightly more over than Laurer, you see Japanese fans don't like seeing their up and comers lose to guys who come in for limited shows... they're funny like that, you know?
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#79 Posted on 18.11.02 1942.38
Reposted on: 18.11.09 1942.41

    Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID
    Lesnar may be more talented in the ring than Goldberg, but he has not attained Goldberg's level of charisma/stardom.


Bill had charisma? Shit, Prince Iaukea had more charisma the freakin' Goldberg!
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#80 Posted on 18.11.02 1959.10
Reposted on: 18.11.09 2005.00
Goldberg oozed charisma. As a matter of fact, it was the only thing going for him, as he had no stamina, moveset, friends, or ring presence.

(edited by Super Shane Spear on 18.11.02 1801)
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