The 5th Horseman
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|  #1 Posted on 12.11.02 1003.37
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1003.37 | Chris Jericho being such a big part of Raw last night got me and a couple of friends talking about how Jericho used to take over Nitro even when WCW was seemingly trying to bury him. It was Jericho's humor that got him over so much without much help from WCW and turned the show into Monday Night Jericho.
The 2 things that we all seemed to remember most was:
1. Jericho's one sided feud with Bill Goldberg. That was amazing. Jericho actually had a memorable feud with Goldberg even without the cooperation or involvement of Bill Goldberg. From the constant taunts from Jericho about being undefeated against "Greenberg", his shirts claiming he was 1-0, 2-0, 3-0 against "Greenberg", and the time he called out "Greenberg" and a midget looking similar to Goldberg came out and ended up in the Lion Tamer. The funniest, in my opinion, was the time Jericho demanded the same security as "Greenberg" when he was going to the ring. Jericho did the whole entrance with the security guys meeting him at his dressing room door. With Jericho's music playing, Jericho, surrounded by all the security guys, was walking down the halls and got lost. The expression on Jericho's face as he kept walking down different halls without finding his way to the entranceway was great. And then, Jericho walked through a door....which turned out to be the exit and Jericho had accidently locked himself out of the arena.
2. But, the best Jericho bit, in my opinion, was during his feud with Dean Malenko, or as Jericho called him, Deano "Stinko" Malenko. Jericho said he wasn't impressed by Malenko's nickname of "Man of 1000 holds" because Jericho claimed to know 1004 holds (I think that was the number). He came out on Nitro one night and unrolled this long sheet of paper and started reading off the 1004 holds that he knew. Every other hold Jericho mentioned was some kind of arm bar. Nitro went to commercial with Tony Schiavone whining about getting Jericho out of the ring. When they returned from a long set of commercials, Jericho was still in the ring reading off his list of holds and every other move was still something like an arm bar (I think he also claimed to know the "moss covered 3 handled family credenza", which Perry Saturn named his finisher in WWF).
If the WWE would allow Jericho to cut loose and use his humor combined with the intensity he showed on Raw last night, Jericho can get his character over even more. | Promote this thread! |             | asteroidboy
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| #2 Posted on 12.11.02 1009.57
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1014.50 | | All of that sounds funnier than anything Jericho has pulled in the WWE. Not to say that I don't like him, but he hasn't shown me much. | Iron Mike Sharpe
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| #3 Posted on 12.11.02 1026.17
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1029.04 | | What about Prince Nakamaki? | thelivinglegendlgrthnlife
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| #4 Posted on 12.11.02 1028.21
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1029.05 |
Originally posted by asteroidboy
All of that sounds funnier than anything Jericho has pulled in the WWE. Not to say that I don't like him, but he hasn't shown me much.
Jericho in WCW blew away anything he's ever done in the WWF/WWE. When he first jumped I was psyched because I thought he was going to blow up huge in the WWF. He could have been the next Rock or Austin and they totally dropped the ball with him. | Smackfiend
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|  #5 Posted on 12.11.02 1102.58
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1109.33 | | Indeed. I watched WCW for one reason only and that was The Paragon of Virtue. When he jumped to WWF I never watched an episode of Nitro agayn. | evilwaldo
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| #6 Posted on 12.11.02 1132.32
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1132.37 | How can you forget the greatest Jericho skit of all time? The night he brought the marker board out and diagrammed the conspiracy against him.
| Excalibur05
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| #7 Posted on 12.11.02 1203.47
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1203.55 | I don't know. I love Jericho but there's certain things he's lacking. Funny Jericho wouldn't fly in the WWE as a heel, because the bitchy heel always gets his ass kicked by the straight laced face. He'd never get over as anything but a mid-card funny wrestler, just like he was in WCW.
As a face, Funny Jericho is better, and his size makes him a good underdog against the uber-heels like Brock and HHH. But an underdog comedy wrestler isn't going to win titles. Except Rock. But Rock has something that Jericho lacks...
Intensity.
When Rock sheds all that comedy crap, you can almost feel how intense the guy is. His eyes start bulging, the veins on his temples pop out, and you know that it's "ass whuppin' time".
Jericho doesn't have that. He never has. The closest thing in the WWE that he's come to it is his "Why doesn't anyone think that I can win?" speech against Rock last year.
Calling people ass clowns and having a goofy looking beard is not the credentials of a major superstar. He's a good worker when he wants to be, but he lacks that in-ring superstar sense that guys like Rock, Booker, Angle, HHH, and Brock all have. They all (with the exception of Brock, really) can be cute and funny/bitchy, but you know that when the heat of the match turns up, that more likely than not, they can kick the other guy's ass.
And it's not really the WWE's fault, either. I made a throwaway comment in my Satire (read it today!), that whenever Jericho goes for "Going to Kick Your Ass" he alternates between "Huffy" and "Slightly peeved, like somebody told him that they ate the last piece of cake and he really wanted some cake". THAT is not main event level intensity. Main event level intensity is the look Austin used to give his opponent right before a match, or Hogan when he "Hulked up" cheesy as it was, or when HHH looks like he's about to mess somebody up as he makes his entrance, or when Undertaker does his little staredown. The kind of look that gives you the chills. Jericho's never given anyone the chills.
Benoit has it. But he lacks what Jericho has. The charisma to go over the top in non-intense moments. Pre-match promos and angles and such. Jericho is the king of those because he knows just what to say to get the crowd up, but once the match starts, he's just not believable as a guy who is doing anything but getting his ass kicked. Benoit can't get the crowd to care one way or another about his interviews or skits, but once he's in the ring, you BELIEVE that he's going to kill somebody. That's why they were such a great tag team. Jericho was there to play up the crowd to get them interested in their feud with HHH/Austin, Benoit was there to deliver the in match story.
I think Jericho is hitting his stride with the King of the World gimmick. It fits him as the whiny heel who thinks he's way better than everybody thinks he actually is. That's what he does best. But until he finds that "it" that makes you believe he can cripple something, then I can't imagine that he'll be a credible main-eventer on a consistant basis. | fuelinjected
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|  #8 Posted on 12.11.02 1238.38
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1238.41 | | He was a credible Main Eventer back in 2000 but funny how he never got his heat back on HHH and was shunted back into the midcard. All those false pushes have really damaged Jericho. | tomvejada
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| #9 Posted on 12.11.02 1253.06
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1259.09 | Is there a site that lists Jericho's 1004 holds?
I think that skit was funnier than anything Y2J's done in WWE. | Super Shane Spear
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| #10 Posted on 12.11.02 1307.47
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1307.59 | http://www.geocities.com/firesign813/1004.html
I was a big fan of his intentionally long and boring speeches when he first came to the WWF, where the fans would be cheering for him, and then start booing halfway through when they realized he wasn't going to shut up.
You wanna impress me? Spell 'lugubrious'!! | tomvejada
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| #11 Posted on 12.11.02 1320.54
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1328.29 | Cool.
Thanks, Shane. | Parts Unknown
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| #12 Posted on 12.11.02 1336.01
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1343.27 | Jericho has done some funny things in the WWE, too. I'll admit they are nothing compared to the WCW schtick, but everyone marked out during the "Thanks Steph! You're the breast...I mean best!" speech.
"It should've been 'LET THE BOOBIES HIT THE FLOOR!'"
That was awesome. | J. Kyle
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| #13 Posted on 12.11.02 1336.36
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1343.55 |
Originally posted by Excalibur05
But Rock has something that Jericho lacks...
Intensity.
You've forgotten Jerico's emotional "I am not an obstacle" promo that Gade used to quote in her sig. That was one of the most intense promos of the new era.
Pretty futile cause he still got his ass kicked for being too WCW. | oldschoolhero
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|  #14 Posted on 12.11.02 1339.18
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1344.20 | | Yeah, four Intercontinental Titles, European Title, three Tag Team Titles, Hardcore Title, first-ever Undisputed Champion....They really hosed him from the get-go, huh? | Parts Unknown
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| #15 Posted on 12.11.02 1343.43
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1344.31 |
Originally posted by oldschoolhero
Yeah, four Intercontinental Titles, European Title, three Tag Team Titles, Hardcore Title, first-ever Undisputed Champion....They really hosed him from the get-go, huh?
Somehow this always gets brought up, but his "accomplishments" are decieving. Though he indeed has a string of title wins in the WWE, you have to admit he's been booked to look like a pussy, job to everyone constantly and basically be un-over with the fans.
It's a bit more complicated than "look at all those belts."
Disclaimer: I'm not a member of the "Jericho is a mistreated wrestling GOD" crowd, but I still think he's been used poorly. | oldschoolhero
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| #16 Posted on 12.11.02 1348.56
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1352.01 | | See, the thing is, if Jericho had been used poorly from the get-go as many are so happy to trumpet, then he wouldn't be around today. Jerry Lynn-now there's an example of someone being used poorly from the get-go. I don't count Jericho as spending a year feuding with Benoit and HHH, crafting the feud of the annum with The Rock last year, and being put in the main event at WrestleMania (which really is an accolade worth paying attention to) as being used poorly. Some bad choices have been made with regards to Jericho, but the fact remains that at no point during his big runs for the top did he really step up and make people take notice. | rockdotcom_2.0
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| #17 Posted on 12.11.02 1446.07
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1446.30 |
Originally posted by oldschoolhero
I don't count Jericho as spending a year feuding with Benoit and HHH, crafting the feud of the annum with The Rock last year, and being put in the main event at WrestleMania (which really is an accolade worth paying attention to) as being used poorly. Some bad choices have been made with regards to Jericho, but the fact remains that at no point during his big runs for the top did he really step up and make people take notice.
The thing is Jericho was made to look good against Rock and Benoit. Rock put over Jericho to win the undisputed title. Jericho has NEVER looked good against HHH. Even when he was carrying the Undisputed title, and feuding with HHH, he was a tool in the HHH-Stephanie relationship. Say what you want, but the real fact is never ONCE has Jericho looked good against HHH. Someone explain that to me. | asteroidboy
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| #18 Posted on 12.11.02 1501.59
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1502.12 | Exactly. Rock made a point to get Jericho over. He sold for him and they had some AWESOME matches as a result. My friends and I were going apeshit when Jericho beat him for the WCW title. So many false finishes and it had some actual drama. Then at 'Mania, they tell us that HHH's leg is hanging on by a thread, Jericho proceeds to kick it for 20 minutes, only to have HHH rally, hit the pedigree, and make Jericho look like an ineffectual bitch.
Open question - Now that HHH is a "cowardly" heel champ, do his opponents make him look that bad? Think of Steiner in the waning days of WCW. Same thing.
| oldschoolhero
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| #19 Posted on 12.11.02 1616.45
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1622.10 | | Well, Jericho HAS looked credible against Trips (the April phantom title change in 2000, Fully Loaded that same year)...Just not in the past twelve months. Then again, Jericho hasn't looked credible against ANYONE in the past twelve months, mainly due to him descending into a big black hole of suck. | James F'n X
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| #20 Posted on 12.11.02 1729.40
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1733.05 |
Originally posted by Excalibur05
I don't know. I love Jericho but there's certain things he's lacking. Funny Jericho wouldn't fly in the WWE as a heel, because the bitchy heel always gets his ass kicked by the straight laced face. He'd never get over as anything but a mid-card funny wrestler, just like he was in WCW.
As a face, Funny Jericho is better, and his size makes him a good underdog against the uber-heels like Brock and HHH. But an underdog comedy wrestler isn't going to win titles. Except Rock. But Rock has something that Jericho lacks...
Intensity.
When Rock sheds all that comedy crap, you can almost feel how intense the guy is. His eyes start bulging, the veins on his temples pop out, and you know that it's "ass whuppin' time".
Jericho doesn't have that. He never has. The closest thing in the WWE that he's come to it is his "Why doesn't anyone think that I can win?" speech against Rock last year.
Calling people ass clowns and having a goofy looking beard is not the credentials of a major superstar. He's a good worker when he wants to be, but he lacks that in-ring superstar sense that guys like Rock, Booker, Angle, HHH, and Brock all have. They all (with the exception of Brock, really) can be cute and funny/bitchy, but you know that when the heat of the match turns up, that more likely than not, they can kick the other guy's ass.
And it's not really the WWE's fault, either. I made a throwaway comment in my Satire (read it today!), that whenever Jericho goes for "Going to Kick Your Ass" he alternates between "Huffy" and "Slightly peeved, like somebody told him that they ate the last piece of cake and he really wanted some cake". THAT is not main event level intensity. Main event level intensity is the look Austin used to give his opponent right before a match, or Hogan when he "Hulked up" cheesy as it was, or when HHH looks like he's about to mess somebody up as he makes his entrance, or when Undertaker does his little staredown. The kind of look that gives you the chills. Jericho's never given anyone the chills.
Benoit has it. But he lacks what Jericho has. The charisma to go over the top in non-intense moments. Pre-match promos and angles and such. Jericho is the king of those because he knows just what to say to get the crowd up, but once the match starts, he's just not believable as a guy who is doing anything but getting his ass kicked. Benoit can't get the crowd to care one way or another about his interviews or skits, but once he's in the ring, you BELIEVE that he's going to kill somebody. That's why they were such a great tag team. Jericho was there to play up the crowd to get them interested in their feud with HHH/Austin, Benoit was there to deliver the in match story.
I think Jericho is hitting his stride with the King of the World gimmick. It fits him as the whiny heel who thinks he's way better than everybody thinks he actually is. That's what he does best. But until he finds that "it" that makes you believe he can cripple something, then I can't imagine that he'll be a credible main-eventer on a consistant basis.
This is everything I've ever tried to say about Chris Jericho. He lacks in-ring charisma. Completely. Ric Flair as a cowardly heel always had a vicious streak in the ring once he got in control, working the knee over to setup the figure four with pinpoint precision. Jericho doesn't focus his moveset, he doesn't show the aggressive spurts a good heel has to, and he's a TERRIBLE face interview.
Face it, this is where Jericho's going to remain for the rest of his career unless he learns that aggressive streak that all great heels have. Just on the fringe of the main event, always looking in. |
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