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The 7 - Random - Stan Lee VS Marvel?
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J. Kyle
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#1 Posted on 10.11.02 1820.54
Reposted on: 10.11.09 1826.54
Shit ain't right with the world I tells ya.
Promote this thread!
Alessandro
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#2 Posted on 11.11.02 0627.40
Reposted on: 11.11.09 0628.46
Wait a minute ... Didn't Lee jump ship to DC Comics awhile back?

skorpio17
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#3 Posted on 11.11.02 0825.17
Reposted on: 11.11.09 0828.36
Stan Lee admitted to 60 Minutes that although he didn't a dime off the huge Spiderman movie, he didn't have any creative rights in his contract at the time. They pay him a flat fee with no royalties even though they credit him as the creator in the front of every issue. He has no case.

He never jumped to DC. He did a special Stan Lee Imagines for all of the different characters in the DC universe. It gave his version of the orgins of characters like Superman. It was said to be very bad by comic critics.
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#4 Posted on 11.11.02 0955.30
Reposted on: 11.11.09 0959.06
The Stan Lee/DC specials were a mixed bag. If you compare them to modern day comics (Powers, Queen & Country, etc.) they were pretty bad. Many of the customers at the store I worked at though enjoyed them because they resembled some of the older silver age comics they remembered as kids (the early Spider-Man, Avengers, and what-not).
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#5 Posted on 11.11.02 1350.28
Reposted on: 11.11.09 1358.03
Stan has lost it... he is honestly a dinosaur now, and he does not like it. The DC specials he did were way overpriced and luke-warm at best (I stopped buying them after the JLA one... half of them were total crap, the other half were decent but halfhearted)...
I really think Stan is just having issues because he is not "the Man" anymore. Marvel pays him good money for his name while other, more talented people are taking the ball that he handstitched and running with it. I really think he should just sit back, enjoy being the figurehead, and limit himself to photo-ops and comic conventions. He would get a great deal of positive press, and not lose one whit of respect...
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#6 Posted on 11.11.02 1528.10
Reposted on: 11.11.09 1529.10
Stan Lee
Legendary writer for Timely Comics, later renamed to Marvel Comics
Created Spider-Man, the Avengers, Iron Man, The Hulk, the X-Men & the Fantastic Four.
Currently Chairman Emeritus of Marvel Comics, and just about every Marvel Comic begins with the title "Stan Lee Presents..."

He's rich. He's famous. He's gainfully employed. Everything's fine, even if he didn't get a whole shitload of money from Spider-Man.
Zeruel
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#7 Posted on 11.11.02 1944.21
Reposted on: 11.11.09 1946.46

    Originally posted by Freeway420
    Stan Lee
    Legendary writer for Timely Comics, later renamed to Marvel Comics
    Created Spider-Man, the Avengers, Iron Man, The Hulk, the X-Men & the Fantastic Four.
    Currently Chairman Emeritus of Marvel Comics, and just about every Marvel Comic begins with the title "Stan Lee Presents..."

    He's rich. He's famous. He's gainfully employed. Everything's fine, even if he didn't get a whole shitload of money from Spider-Man.



...and he wants MORE. that's the sad part.
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#8 Posted on 11.11.02 2332.58
Reposted on: 11.11.09 2332.59
OK, here's what I don't understand:

Who exactly is "Marvel Comics?" I mean, who runs the show and signs the checks? And considering Stan Lee essentially created every major character of the brand, and is almost certainly the person who's been there the longest, why isn't he running the show? I mean, why is he still getting his checks signed by someone else? He's the guy that built that business close to single-handedly. In any other business, that's the guy who's the man in charge. Why not here?
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#9 Posted on 12.11.02 0304.11
Reposted on: 12.11.09 0305.15
Stan is not in charge there anymore... he has an interest in the company, I believe, but the editor-in-chief (hence boss) is now Joe Quesada, if I am not mistaken. Stan has held many executive positions in the company, but he was never running the entire show. When Marvel decided to revamp recently, Stan was let go (mutal consent, I believe on this, as well... it was a friendly parting). They still credit him for his creations, and pay him royalties for his name, but he no longer has any power in, or obligation to the company. Hence his recent DC series.


(edited by Pool-Boy on 12.11.02 0105)
Zeruel
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#10 Posted on 12.11.02 0451.37
Reposted on: 12.11.09 0451.38
aren't all those re-vamps getting tiring? it seems like every 3-4 years they have to "re-vamp" the line of comics or re-tell everyones origins and update it for the '90s (now for the '00s i guess)...

3 reasons for me just getting utterly sick of comics. constant re-vamping, creative teams that rotate every 4 issues, and artists that are hot for about 4 issues and decide they want to cut it on their own and they get a fill in art team that Sal Bucema Sr. look like the God of art. [disclaimer, i loved Sal's work from his first spidy run, but his run on Spectatcular Spiderman in the mid to late '90s rhymed with ass]
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#11 Posted on 12.11.02 1007.23
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1007.24
Right now, Papercuts is STRUGGLING to not come out of lurk mode and yell at all of you. I can sense it...
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#12 Posted on 12.11.02 1237.46
Reposted on: 12.11.09 1238.12
Well, i think they did the right thing in THIS re-vamp. The comics are all great, the Ultimate line is awesome, and things are good. Except for my damned Deadpool gripe... as much as I like Agent X right now, I want DEADPOOL, not some guy who probably is Deadpool with a different name, costume, but a similar sense of humor who does not ever remember BEING Deadpool. But that is my only real comic gripe of late.
And on the DC side... Batman and JLA have been awesome...
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#13 Posted on 15.11.02 1634.19
Reposted on: 15.11.09 1637.12
Revamps are necessary to keep things fresh. They are a necessary evil. I mean, how many stories can you tell about the same guy? The big names have been around over 50 years, with new stuff coming out every month. Straight continuity on that would be *impossible.* Just enjoy them for what they are, and keep your eye on the writers who write the stuff you like.
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#14 Posted on 16.11.02 1109.19
Reposted on: 16.11.09 1111.50
Just to muddy the waters some here. I'm not papercuts, but I can't stand idly by either.

First of all what Stan Lee is protesting is the same thing that Siegel and Shuster protested when the Superman film came out. That millions of dollars were being made on their creation, while they got nothing.

One of the problems with the comics industry is that until comparitively recently ALL work was described as "work-for-hire" whch is to say that once the work was done the artists involved had no more claim on the artwork than the guy who painted your kitchen did on the ceiling that he painted. The consequence of this is that the chaarcters that they created, the artwork that they painted, all belonged to other people.

There has always been an argument that the artists "knew what they were getting into". The problem is that when all the companies used the same blanket restrictive language on their contracts, people didn't have a lot of choice, especially since their very cheques were printed saying that cashing them was an agreement that the artists were forever giving up their rights to their creation(s).

(It should be pointing out that there were exceptions, the biggest being EC comics who returned the original artwork to the artists and who shared royalties with the artists when Tales From the Crypt among others made money years after the original publications. In fact in some cases, Bill Gaines had difficulty getting the artists to accept the money. "Ghastly" Graham Ingels in particular was reluctant to take money, because he had come to believe that his work on the horror comics was somehow blasphemous. Bill Gaines, and to a lesser extent Will Eisner were very much the exceptions that proved the rule, though.)

The argument of Siegel and Shuster was that by forcing them to either starve or sign the contracts, they were coerced into giving up their rights. Whether this would fly as a legal argument, I leave to others. What it did do was emberass Warner Brothers into coughing up some dough to make the problem go away.

The twist with Stan is two things:
First Stan does have a contract with Marvel to get royalties. Unfortunately the contract is for a percentage of the gross and as usual in Hollywood they are playing with the accounting to argue that a movie that grosses half a billion dollars can't possibly make a profit. (c.f. Art Buchwald vs Eddie Murphy et al over Coming to America.)

The second issue is that the reason that Stan has a contract is that Stan was always management at Marvel. He was the cousin or nephew of the original publisher (Marvin Goodman, I think) and as such could ensure that he got fairly good language in his contracts. So once he gets past the Hollywood accountants, he should do fine.

Not so lucky are two men:
First up, Steve Ditko, first (sort-of) artist on Spider-Man and the man who created Spidey's look and helped with Stan define his universe. In particular Steve was absolutely responsible for designing the look of characters like Peter Parker, the Green Goblin, Ned Leeds, Flash Thompson, Aunt May.

One of the complications in deciding who was responsible for what has to do with Stan Lee's rather unique way of writing comics. As opposed to current day writers like Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman who write like Hollywood screenplays, Stan would usually verbally describe what he wanted for a specific issue, then once the art-work was done, he would write the dialogue to match the art-work. As such, Marvel artists like Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby were much more responsible for the actual story-telling than many present-day artists.

The late, great Jack Kirby, of course, is the other man involved. Jack Kirby who drew the cover to Amazing Fantasy#15, always maintained that he was responsible for the idea of a hero with the powers of a spider and the visual look of Spider-Man, although he wanted to call the hero the Scarlet Spider, and his hero would have been an adult and not a teenager.

This by the way is an argument that has raged on for a long time. It has died down a little since Jack's death but there are entire issues of the Comics Journal dedicated to the subject.

The final man that I thought of as I typed this up is John Romita Sr. the artist who took over from Steve Ditko and first drew Mary Jane. His cheesecake shot of Mary-Jane's first appearance with her immortal line, "Tiger, you just hit the jackpot" is perhaps the most memorable entrance in all of comics. For him not be compensated for creating Mary Jane Watson would be a criminal oversight.
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#15 Posted on 16.11.02 1143.53
Reposted on: 16.11.09 1146.31
I take nothing away from Stan, but he obviously forgot what company he worked for. Either that or he is hoping that most folk are too young to remember a lot of stuff (like Llakor and Papercuts) and call him a post-modern hypocrite. He himself screwed over tons of creators by default contractual design. Oh, the irony of it all. Karma's a bitch, ain't it?

Do you see Jim Lee screaming about Gambit or Whilce Portacio screaming about Bishop--or christ--Chris Claremont screaming about ALL those characters he created and they bastardized after he left (don't answer that last one). It's not like writers and artists on hot books don't get paid handsomely. Fabian Nicieza calls his fablulous abode the "House that X-Force built." While Stan may have created a ton of characters--saying he deserves whopping loads of movie profits is downright insane.

To wit:
The last creator that I can personally remember earning royalties off of creations made while at Marvel is Rob LieFeld (Cable, Deadpool, X-Force). Did Marvel like this? Apparently not, as they revamped and renamed all of the major books and characters in order to get rid of Liefeld once and for all.

Stan needs to accept his checks ad be quiet before they boot him into forgottenville.

DrOp--hates when rich folk whine.
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#16 Posted on 16.11.02 1158.09
Reposted on: 16.11.09 1159.01
    Originally posted by DrOp
    To wit:
    The last creator that I can personally remember earning royalties off of creations made while at Marvel is Rob LieFeld (Cable, Deadpool, X-Force). Did Marvel like this? Apparently not, as they revamped and renamed all of the major books and characters in order to get rid of Liefeld once and for all.

    Stan needs to accept his checks ad be quiet before they boot him into forgottenville.

    DrOp--hates when rich folk whine.



ohhhhhhhh.....ok...makes sense now....

i used to be in the know when i used to read Wizard



(edited by rikidozan on 16.11.02 1258)
Freeway
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#17 Posted on 16.11.02 1243.52
Reposted on: 16.11.09 1244.03

    Originally posted by rikidozan
      Originally posted by DrOp
      To wit:
      The last creator that I can personally remember earning royalties off of creations made while at Marvel is Rob LieFeld (Cable, Deadpool, X-Force). Did Marvel like this? Apparently not, as they revamped and renamed all of the major books and characters in order to get rid of Liefeld once and for all.

      Stan needs to accept his checks ad be quiet before they boot him into forgottenville.

      DrOp--hates when rich folk whine.



    ohhhhhhhh.....ok...makes sense now....

    i used to be in the know when i used to read Wizard



    (edited by rikidozan on 16.11.02 1258)



Y'see, the difference is that Stan co-created a bunch of GOOD characters. I mean, EVERY DAMNED Marvel movie ('cept Blade) is based on a Stan Lee collaboration! X-Men! Daredevil! Spider-Man! The Hulk! I agree that he deserves some money, but seeing how Marvel is a public company (the owners are the people), Bill Jemas is the publisher & Joe Queseda is ed-in-chief, they've been trying to SAVE money.

Remember, this company JUST got out of bankrupcy thanks to Spider-Man.
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#18 Posted on 16.11.02 1525.59
Reposted on: 16.11.09 1529.03
Bankruptcy which Marvel brought upon itself by flooding the market in the 90s with spin-off books (War Machine, anyone? Do we EVER need more than one Thor magazine?) starring secondary characters that barely got a rise when they appeared in the primary character's books and by making every solo and team book a visual and virtual Jim Lee X-Men rip-off. And the Spiderman Clone saga. Yikes.


DrOp--it was BAD, yo.
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#19 Posted on 16.11.02 1933.21
Reposted on: 16.11.09 1935.12
Well, DrOp is a LOT more venomous in his hatred of Stan Lee than I am, but he makes the point about Irony biting him in the ass which I was sort-of alluding to rather than saying outright.

The problem of course is that in this isolated case I am on Stan's side, because for Ditko or Romita to be recognized as the creative forces behind Peter Parker and Mary Jane, Stan HAS to be recognized. The worst possible result would be for Stan Lee to get credit and for Ditko and Romita to be ignored.

Y'see, the difference is that Stan co-created a bunch of GOOD characters. I mean, EVERY DAMNED Marvel movie ('cept Blade) is based on a Stan Lee collaboration! X-Men! Daredevil! Spider-Man! The Hulk!

I'm glad you said co-created, because without the visual designs and story-telling brought by his artists, Stan Lee was NOTHING.

For the record, (let's see if I can get these right)
Blade = Marv Wolfman and Gene Colan
X-Men = Jack Kirby and Stan Lee
Daredevil = Ooh! Tricky! Bill Everett and Stan Lee although I think Jack Kirby had a hand in the costume design.
Spider-Man = Steve Ditko and Stan Lee (with a disputed assist from Jack Kirby)
Hulk = Jack Kirby and Stan Lee



MoeGates
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#20 Posted on 16.11.02 2142.14
Reposted on: 16.11.09 2145.55
First Stan does have a contract with Marvel to get royalties. Unfortunately the contract is for a percentage of the gross and as usual in Hollywood they are playing with the accounting to argue that a movie that grosses half a billion dollars can't possibly make a profit. (c.f. Art Buchwald vs Eddie Murphy et al over Coming to America.)

Do you mean he signed for a % of the net? Incidentaly, even I know it's an idiotic thing to sign for a % of the net, just from reading a Mario Puzo novel (Fools Die, much better than the Godfather).

As one of those people who stopped reading Marvel around 1993 (after having discovered Hellblazer, et. al.), I was always curious what happened to all those spin-off. Silver Sable was the only one that was decent, in my opinion.

I was always under the impression that Marvel went bankrupt by essentially playing to collectors (with all that "you'll pay twice as much and buy two copies for a comic with a hole in the cover" business) instead of people who enjoyed comics. Once people realized that a sucky comic with a 10 million copy print run will never be worth shit all, no matter how pretty the cover is, everything went to hell.
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