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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Falwell's comments on Islam Register and log in to post!
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DMC
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#1 Posted on 12.10.02 1309.02
Reposted on: 12.10.09 1309.16
Well it's nice to see that the P.C. machine is started and warming up in the fight to silence people who are critical of the Islamic religion. I guess we now have a "Say what you will about Christianity or Judaism, but dare say anything critical about Islam and you will die!" And this LITERALLY is apparently is being thrown about: http://www.msnbc.com/news/820495.asp. (Of course it's nothing new: see Salman Rushdie.)

Ok, disagree with Falwell and other Christian speakers if you want (on this issue, I don't) but don't you find it absolutely sad that people are saying that someone should not be allowed to speak a particular viewpoint on an issue and that the *President of the United States* should get involved to stop the "oppressive campaign" against Islam? Now I think I know a little bit about how Jewish people in Israel feel when this idiotic, spineless rhetoric is thrown around.

"Islam is not a violent religion! And to prove it, we are going to throw a violent protest!" Gee that makes a whole lot of freakin sense. *Basic history* proves that Mohammed was a warrior and that Islam at the very beginning was a conquering, militaristic religion. So what is going on here??? Is anyone else as ticked at the abject unfairness and hypocracy of this as I am?

DMC

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OlFuzzyBastard
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#2 Posted on 12.10.02 1335.05
Reposted on: 12.10.09 1335.58
Jerry Falwell said that Mohammed, the symbolic head of the Islamic faith, believed in by millions of people around the world, the over-whelming majority of which aren't terrorists or even our military enemies, was a terrorist. Gee, why would people be upset about that?

I wonder if he'd get his panties in a twist if some high-ranking Muslim said that Jesus Christ was a cult leader?

Then again, Falwell is a big giant publicity machine, saying intentionally stupid things to keep the cameras pointed in his direction. He's like a more homophobic Eminem.
DMC
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#3 Posted on 12.10.02 1341.33
Reposted on: 12.10.09 1344.36
"I wonder if he'd get his panties in a twist if some high-ranking Muslim said that Jesus Christ was a cult leader?"

They say Jesus was not the Son of God, God incarnate, they say that the Trinity is blasphemous, and other things that Christians would take strong offense to. So they can be allowed to say those things but a Christian cannot point a legitimate finger at Islam? Come on Fuzzy.

DMC
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#4 Posted on 12.10.02 1455.56
Reposted on: 12.10.09 1459.01
This is why religions make me nervous. Because of the stupidity of this bickering. What's the difference from being anti-semetic, to anti-christian, to anti-muslim? To me there is none, and you're all in the wrong.

And it would anger me too if some non-believer tries to villify my prophet/savior/whatever as a way to attack my people in the present time. Jerry Falwell is a hypocrite with exposure. Where does Jesus say to love everyone except the Muslims?? I understand that everybody has their faults, but I don't respect Falwell or Bin Laden as true representations of Christanity and Islam.

-Jag
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#5 Posted on 12.10.02 1552.30
Reposted on: 12.10.09 1554.23
One more clarification and then I promise to shut up and let other opinions be heard. As a believer myself, it does *not* anger me that people attack my religion, because I am secure in my faith and feel I can defend what I believe and why I believe it. That is what the religion and (to tie it back to politics) what our COUNTRY is all about--open, free discussion and debate. By contrast, why are Muslims so nervous when someone points any kind of finger at them? Could it be because maybe they don't have a logical answer to give? That's the difference here. At the very least, realize that Christians including Falwell are not calling for the *death* of people like John Dominic Crossan or the Jehovah's Witnesses! Christianity tells believers to *discuss* with those who disagree with them in an open and loving way, not to destroy them.

DMC
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#6 Posted on 12.10.02 1701.17
Reposted on: 12.10.09 1701.35
THe fact that a lot of AMericans dont realise the widespread presence of Islam is disturbing. Also, the fact that Islam is split in two, in thier own theories is also troubling. THe Shi-ite and Sunni muslim groups vary greatly on what they consider to be the true doctrine of Islam. Not all of them are the same, just like a Roman Catholic and a Presbiterian are different.

Should Jerry Falwell be able to say that, in his view, Mohamed is a terrorist? Sure, thats why we have free speech. If you dont agree with it, then disagree. But, the man has serious convictions, and sticks by them. No matter how antiquated they seem.
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#7 Posted on 12.10.02 1712.38
Reposted on: 12.10.09 1724.34
Except that I don't see this as a serious conviction at all. I see it as something he thought of that in light of recent times he thinks will get him a soundbyte in the mainstream. Which it did.

I don't know, I just think of Falwell as an ass who would do just about anything to boost his (or the church's) power/prestige/influence. I'm probably too biased to see him in as nice a light as others, which is a shame.

-Jag

As an aside, because I realise that I've never gotten the chance to see this from a different perspective: Do you really see Falwell as a spiritual leader? How so? What does he do for you spiritually?
MoeGates
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#8 Posted on 12.10.02 2216.51
Reposted on: 12.10.09 2220.23
Falwell said some stupid stuff. A bunch of people said in essence "Jerry Falwell is an idiot, and should apologize." I mean, this is hardly anything new. Falwell should really be used to this by now. I don't understand how this is "the P.C. machine is started and warming up in the fight to silence people who are critical of the Islamic religion," and how "people are saying that someone should not be allowed to speak a particular viewpoint on an issue." I didn't read anything in there from anyone who actually lives in our country about how we want to "silence" Jerry Falwell. I mean, 60 minutes interviewed him, and they can't have thought that he'd be all roses and butterflies about Islam. Must be that liberal media silencing conservative viewpoints again.

What, it's OK to say critical things about Islam, but it's NOT OK to say critical things about people who say critical things about Islam?

I also really hope that Jerry Falwell someday realizes that Christianity really doesn't have a leg to stand when accusing other religions of having a violent history.
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#9 Posted on 13.10.02 0055.18
Reposted on: 13.10.09 0055.47
You are very right Moe. As far as Christianity being violent, the Crusades are a nice example.
The reason Falwell talks so much is to get the people that are somehow addicted to him, to pay more attention and send more cash.

I think he is generally a good man, with the best of intentions, but he lets his position as a high profile Christian "leader" get to him sometimes.
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#10 Posted on 13.10.02 1134.16
Reposted on: 13.10.09 1136.38
Using the The Crusades as an example of Christianity is just as bad as using 9/11 as an example of Islam. It's not fair to hold the entire religion responsible for the actions of a few wackos who distort the true beliefs of the religion for their own agendas.

(Edited for clarity)

(edited by DJ FrostyFreeze on 13.10.02 1012)
OlFuzzyBastard
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#11 Posted on 13.10.02 1257.42
Reposted on: 13.10.09 1259.03

    Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
    Using the The Crusades as an example of Christianity is just as bad as using 9/11 as an example of Islam. It's not fair to hold the entire religion responsible for the actions of a few wackos who distort the true beliefs of the religion for their own agendas.

    (Edited for clarity)

    (edited by DJ FrostyFreeze on 13.10.02 1012)



Exactly, and that's why Jerry Falwell is a hatemongering douchebag.
Bizzle Izzle
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#12 Posted on 13.10.02 1916.29
Reposted on: 13.10.09 1919.39
I think using the Crusades is a bad example simply because it wasn't just the Christians who were savage. While it's true the Latins killed Jewish and Muslim civilians during the first crusade, the Muslims under the Egyptian Mamelukes did the same thing but to many cities during the later crusades. They'd either kill or enslave everyone in cities they took. Even the great Saladin let his guys butcher hundreds of prisoners after one battle with a lot of Templars.

But there are elements in Western society that just want to point out the bad things done by westerners, not anybody else.
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#13 Posted on 13.10.02 1935.51
Reposted on: 13.10.09 1937.10

    Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle
    I think using the Crusades is a bad example simply because it wasn't just the Christians who were savage.


Okay, out of the 6 Crusades, 4 were brought about by Popes. THe First, by Pope Urban III the 3rd by Pope Gregory VIII and the 4th AND 5th by Pope Innocent III.

They were responsible for them. Not saying nobody else was involved, but they (Christians) had thier fingers it.
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#14 Posted on 13.10.02 2115.11
Reposted on: 13.10.09 2115.59
Bizzle is right but there is a lot more too it than just that. Before Mohamed and his successors went on a Jihad Christianity was the dominant religion in the Middle East, Northern Africa, and Southern Europe. During the 8th through 10 century millions of Christians were killed by the Moslems. Many more were forced to convert by the sword, enslaved, or paid a higher taxes with a loss of rights (by the crappy 10th century standards). Over a third of the total Christian lands and people were conquered during the Jihad.
Yes the Pope started 4 of the 6 Crusades that sent some soldiers to try to free the "Holy Land". But that was a mainly a political decision. Lords wanted to get land for their younger sons or get rid of their brothers, Kings wanted to get rid of the bored pissed off Lords, and the Church wanted money from the sacking of Jeruesalem and other cities.
So if people want to bitch about Christianity they shouldn't really use the Crusades. The incredible stupidity of the 30 Year War is a far better example. No other religions were involved to take part of the blame. Plus the fact that 20 million or so were killed because the Catholic Church called all Lutheran women sluts is stupidity.
But seriously what the fuck does any of this matter? All of the above happened somewhere between 350 years and 1000 years ago. If people want they should use better and more current things that have lead to todays problems. But shit that happened before any of todays countries (except for England) existed is stupid.
MoeGates
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#15 Posted on 14.10.02 0014.19
Reposted on: 14.10.09 0017.27
I think using the Crusades is a bad example simply because it wasn't just the Christians who were savage. While it's true the Latins killed Jewish and Muslim civilians during the first crusade, the Muslims under the Egyptian Mamelukes did the same thing but to many cities during the later crusades. They'd either kill or enslave everyone in cities they took. Even the great Saladin let his guys butcher hundreds of prisoners after one battle with a lot of Templars.

But there are elements in Western society that just want to point out the bad things done by westerners, not anybody else.


Absolutely. Every religion has it's good and bad contributions to the world. But just like there are people that only want to point out the bad things done by Western society, there are also people that want to point out only the bad things done by non-westerners, and hold themselves blameless. I mean, it's not like Falwell thinks Christianity (or at least his version) is anything less than perfect. He essentially said "Jesus and Moses were men of peace, Mohammed was a terrorist," to support his point that Christianity and Judaism are peaceful religions, and Islam is a violent religion. It's not like he went into why all three religions have their violent facets and people jumped on him. He singled out one religion in particular, when all three (and most others) have both peaceful and violent traditions and histories - although I have to say that Christianity and Islam have a big lead on Judaism in "violent history" department.

I'd also point out that since a) people on all 6 continents practice Judaism, Islam and Christianity in a million different forms and b) all three religions started in more or less the same area, you can't really call one "western" and others "non-western." Compared with say, Buddhism, Islam and Christianity are practically the same theologically.

But seriously what the fuck does any of this matter? All of the above happened somewhere between 350 years and 1000 years ago. If people want they should use better and more current things that have lead to todays problems. But shit that happened before any of todays countries (except for England) existed is stupid.

This is another point in favor of "Falwell's comments were stupid." He's using an example 1200 years old to prove his point today.
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#16 Posted on 14.10.02 1457.24
Reposted on: 14.10.09 1459.01

    Originally posted by Bizzle Izzle
    But there are elements in Western society that just want to point out the bad things done by westerners, not anybody else.


And then there are those like myself who declare "a plague on BOTH their houses," particularly when religion is the topic at hand. It _is_ quite possible to consider both Saddam Hussein and Jerry Falwell dangerous buffoons whose accidental falls into alligator pits would benefit mankind.

Falwell screaming "Islam is evil, and Christianity is The One Way" while his Muslim equivalents scream "Christianity is evil, and Islam is The One Way" is like two six-year-olds kicking and clawing each other over whether the Easter Bunny is pink or green. Neither one will ever win, neither one can ever be declared "correct", and all that happens in the end is that both sides get cut and bruised and hate each other all the more.

When someone declares "This is my religion and my belief system, and I will live my life by it," that's perfectly fine. When someone declares "This is my religion and my belief system, and EVERYONE should live their lives by it, and those who follow another system are WRONG and persecutable," they're arrogant blowhards who need a reality check, no matter which religion it is they're promoting.
DMC
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#17 Posted on 14.10.02 1623.16
Reposted on: 14.10.09 1626.33
"Neither one will ever win, neither one can ever be declared "correct", and all that happens in the end is that both sides get cut and bruised and hate each other all the more."

Not necessairly. I am a firm believer that the truth can be reached on this issue just by studying the evidence and history. What Falwell and other Christians mean is that there is a substantial difference between the founders of the religions and how the religion was practiced by its earliest believers, not how the religion manifested throughout longer stretches of time (for everyone agrees that Christianity had its ugly points). The fact is that Mohammed was a warrior--read any basic medevial history text and you will hear about the battles and raids he led and called for. Now I don't know how exactly Falwell was defining "terrorist" in the context of the comments he made, but the truth is that Mohammed DID DO these things and did call for Islam to be spread in this fashion--Jesus did not. (Thus, under this type of theology you DO get the actions of "fundamentalist" Muslims who do horrible things.) I know that apparently ticks a lot of people off, but you can't ignore the basics teachings and actions of each individual leader. That is really the only point being made. At the very least, if we're going to be critical of Christian beliefs, then we have to be critical of Islamic beliefs as well.

Moe, it is fine to say critical things about those who speak critically of Islam, but it is NOT ok to just say "Silence him!" If there is a logical response, then make it. I understand that the article was largely referring to people outside of our country making those remarks about Falwell, but I could very easily see people here agreeing with those sentiments if a few more articles come out about how horrible things are happening around the world because Jerry Falwell opened his mouth. Believe it or not, the way media portrays things, it can have a large impact on molding the minds of TV-numbed, ignorant Americans.

DMC

(edited by DMC on 14.10.02 1424)
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#18 Posted on 14.10.02 1712.42
Reposted on: 14.10.09 1720.53

    Originally posted by DMC
    "Neither one will ever win, neither one can ever be declared "correct", and all that happens in the end is that both sides get cut and bruised and hate each other all the more."

    Not necessarily. I am a firm believer that the truth can be reached on this issue just by studying the evidence and history.



The truth as you perceive it, that is. Not that that's inherently wrong -- you have every right to believe what you choose to believe. If those beliefs work _for you_, congratulations; you're one step ahead of a lot of people.

Now, if you believe that either Christian fundies like Falwell or Muslim fundies targeted by Falwell's statement will ever convince EACH OTHER to agree that one side or the other is the least bit in error, or that either side will ever rationally examine each other's beliefs instead of chanting MY BOOK SAYS THAT WE'RE RIGHT AND YOU'RE EVIL, then I have a bridge and some valuable Florida property to sell you.
MoeGates
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#19 Posted on 14.10.02 1926.27
Reposted on: 14.10.09 1926.35
Moe, it is fine to say critical things about those who speak critically of Islam, but it is NOT ok to just say "Silence him!"

I completely agree. Nobody outside of some nutcases in Iran has said that. And said nutcases would probably like me and you dead also.

but I could very easily see people here agreeing with those sentiments if a few more articles come out about how horrible things are happening around the world because Jerry Falwell opened his mouth.

Wait a minute, so you're saying that actually the evil P.C. machine hasn't started warming up in the fight to silence people who are critical of the Islamic religion, just that they might if Jerry talks a little more? You mean that the P.C. crowd didn't really say "Say what you will about Christianity or Judaism, but dare say anything critical about Islam and you will die!" Trust me on this ones, us liberals have been up Jerry ass about every stupid thing to come out of his mouth in the last 20 years. It's not like he's off our radar screen until he says some bad stuff about Islam a few more times. We haven't been saying "silence him" because WE DON'T SAY THAT.

I'm not sure if this whole "the P.C. crowd wants to cut out the tongues of everyone who says "handicap" instead of "differently-abled." is a deliberate red herring by conservatives or if they're really that paranoid that they think Alec Baldwin is going to come to their house in the middle of the night and threaten their children if they don't take down the Ten Commandments in their living room.

You aren't even upset at what liberals are saying, you're upset at what you think they might say? How about when Barbara Streisand declares a fatwa against Jerry Falwell you come to back to me on this one.

Believe it or not, the way media portrays things, it can have a large impact on molding the minds of TV-numbed, ignorant Americans.

By mind-numbed, ignorant Americans I'm guessing you mean "everyone who disagrees with you." But in case you don't, is the fact that W has 60-70% approval ratings and two-thirds of Americans want to bomb Iraq a result of the media "molding the minds of TV-numbed, ignorant Americans?" (wait a minute, you might have a point there...)

Come on now, we're not living in "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" quite yet. Give Ashcroft a couple more years though...


(edited by MoeGates on 14.10.02 2029)
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#20 Posted on 14.10.02 2259.59
Reposted on: 14.10.09 2301.16
He apologized. Click Here

-Jag
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