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22.7.07 2221
The 7 - Pro Wrestling - NWA TNA: Let us ponder..
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Fantomas
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#1 Posted on 25.9.02 2238.08
Reposted on: 25.9.09 2239.36
So does anyone besides me still order these NWA ppvs? Not that I'd blame you if you didn't...

The best thing I can say about this company is that this is where the WWE comes to steal moves. Crash stole Styles' finisher. Misterio stole Red's kickass freaky flip thingie. I predict Red's entire arsenal will be stolen by the end of next year. I also bet we'll see the dragon clutch in a WWE match within the next three months. The WWE 'superstars' have no shame, says I. Now if WWE could find some angles worth stealing!

Nevertheless, this show was nothing to write home about. I'm seeing now what many other people say about how the NWA matches have no psychology. In WWE, generally a match has a kind of flow or theme... Wrestler A has control for 2 minutes, the opponent then takes control for two minutes, then there's a final exchange leading to the finish. There are only a few momentum shifts and they have a tad of meaning. In NWA, it's: Wrestler A hits two moves. Wrestler B hits one. Back and forth, never-ending changes in momentum until one guy hits his finisher or (as is usually the case) there's a stupid-ass run or DQ.

I have heard people say that the triple ladder match was a match of the year candidate, but I just can't see it. That match was just a bunch of spots, guys closing their eyes and clubbing away at each other until one guy climbed the ladder and snatched the title. There was no drama, no build, and thus no anticipation or pay-off when lynn won. There was a 'holy shit' for the cradle piledriver off the ladder, which was a great spot beautifully done. But it's just another spot.

Anyway, this show.. I don't even know what number we're up to.... 14? This show looked like crap on paper, but thankfully came off a bit better as it played out.

Red vs Siaki was OK, Red has a plethora of sweet moves that he performs perfectly most of the time. But Siaki has nothing but 'The Look'. And his 'look' is alot like The Rock's, note the multiple 'rocky' and 'rocky sucks' chants that were audible throughout the arena. The match was ok but forgettable, like EVERY tna match.

Kid Kash vs Jorge Estrada: Why? Why would they have Kash job to the inept Estrada?!?!?!? Kash is proving to be one of their best workers in ANY division and Estrada is a mess! Do they really think people want to see Estrada vs Siaki?? Do they not hear the "Yang Time" chants? Estrada sucks! Kash is too good to be just enhancement talent.

AJ Styles vs Low Ki 2/3 falls: OK. A few weeks back they had a show with TWO 2/3 falls matches on the same show. They had two ladder matches in the last few months. Now we get ANOTHER 2/3 falls match this week, and next week we get ANOTHER ladder match with Styles and Lynn, who we JUST SAW in a ladder match a few episodes back! There's other types of matches, people! Cage match? Weapons match? I Quit match? Sometimes these shows feel like they're booked by a ten year old playing that computer game where you make your own promotion.

Anyway, the match was a collection of spots we've seen before by two guys we've seen fight each other many times before. The final fall had styles working over Ki's leg.... Which then did not factor in the least to the finish. As for the finish... OK, is Jerry Jarrett in love with AJ Styles? Does he covet the man's buttocks? Of all the people in the NWA, why does Styles get the t-shirt? Why does Styles get the push? Lo Ki is FAR more over, he is easily the most over man on the roster. Red has a better moveset. Kash is a better overall worker. Styles doesn't even have a good look. He reminds me of a utility infielder for the chicago cubs. And as we saw again tonight, he can't cut a promo. So why the hell is he getting ANOTHER shot at the X-title?

This having been said, the nonsensical 'loser drops to the bottom of the rankings' stip is intruiging... Does this mean Low Ki will spend a few months fighting his way back up to the top?

Jerry Lynn vs Ron Killings: Here's another thing that makes no sense. Last week was killings/lynn in a non-finish. This week was killings/lynn in a screwjob DQ finish. Why the hell is the Heavyweight champ fighting the X-Division champ? Noone explains who wins what title should one man actually *gasp* win clean! This is like having jericho the IC champ fighting Brock lesnar, the heavyweight champ over and over, with no explanation. Why would this be booked? Why would you put all your eggs in one basket?

And the worst thing of all is that this match between the two title holders, you know, the things that signify who the best of the promotion are? That was the SECOND to last match. The main event? Jeff Jarret vs the god damn ROAD DOGG. The FAT JUNKIE ROAD DOGG. Nothing says "1998 midcard go get popcorn match" like Jarret vs James! And that's the main event!

So despite all that, I still sort of enjoy the show in a sick way. I love seeing new guys, I love low ki, I love the truth, but the booking is a mess and the angles go nowhere. Let's hope they can pick it up before the few people who still watch finally stop.
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Faust
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#2 Posted on 25.9.02 2320.34
Reposted on: 25.9.09 2322.55
on the subject of "stealing" a move . . .

wrestling is an art form. Artists use other artists ideas as launching pads for their own ideas all the time. I would never call it stealing.

Think of a wrestler as a song. If each move a wrestler has is like a phrase of music or a musical idea, then it becomes a matter of what combination of moves the wrestler chooses to include in his arsenal. Creating a moveset that is a combination of other wrestler's movesets is not stealing any more than writing a piece of music that is inspired by combinations of other pieces of music. In fact, that is how 99% of all music is written, be it rock, classical, pop, rap or any other style you can think of.

To quote Judy from 'Doug,' "If no one imitated anyone else, we'd all be running around naked and grunting . . ."
The Vile1
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#3 Posted on 26.9.02 0015.10
Reposted on: 26.9.09 0016.39
Fantomas, apply that logic of the Triple threat ladder matches to all the WWE TLC matches and I agree with you. I mean who here hasn't called a TLC a MOTY candidate.

Anyway, I recommend anyone to try and dig up the original WWF ladder match with Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels for the IC title. It doesn't really have any death defying spots or some real HOLY SHIT type moments, but its still a great match with some good flow and phsycology. It was about trying to climb up and get the belt whatever way you could, not trying to kill yourself in the process.

I've seen the NWA-TNA ladder match, it was ok. I think I read in the torch that Lynn and Styles are going to have a ladder match next week, but I'm not sure about that so don't quote me.
Ubermonkeys
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#4 Posted on 26.9.02 0449.33
Reposted on: 26.9.09 0454.38
To quote Judy from 'Doug,' "If no one imitated anyone else, we'd all be running around naked and grunting . . ."

You guys really freak me out sometimes. High-five.
Fantomas
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#5 Posted on 26.9.02 0832.07
Reposted on: 26.9.09 0832.10

    Originally posted by Faust
    on the subject of "stealing" a move . . .

    wrestling is an art form. Artists use other artists ideas as launching pads for their own ideas all the time. I would never call it stealing.

    Think of a wrestler as a song. If each move a wrestler has is like a phrase of music or a musical idea, then it becomes a matter of what combination of moves the wrestler chooses to include in his arsenal. Creating a moveset that is a combination of other wrestler's movesets is not stealing any more than writing a piece of music that is inspired by combinations of other pieces of music. In fact, that is how 99% of all music is written, be it rock, classical, pop, rap or any other style you can think of.

    To quote Judy from 'Doug,' "If no one imitated anyone else, we'd all be running around naked and grunting . . ."



Well... Remember that band who did that song 'Bittersweet Symphony'? I think they were called The Verve. The song had a sample from some classical song, and they used it without permission. As a result they got sued and thus did not and will never receive a penny in royalties for it, which sucks for them because I think that was their only hit. Same thing goes with anybody 'sampling' music, like P Diddy does. He has to get permission.

So I think in wrestling, if a guy has any sense of conscience, he should make sure the announcers either mention who originated the move or call it by it's name. I remember now, that move Red originated which Misterio stole was called the Code Red. I would be cool with Misterio using it if Tazz and Cole called it the code red, and maybe even mentioned in passing that a guy named The Amazing Red came up with it. Will that ever happen? Let's just say I'm not holding my breath.


    Originally posted by The Vile1

    Fantomas, apply that logic of the Triple threat ladder matches to all the WWE TLC matches and I agree with you. I mean who here hasn't called a TLC a MOTY candidate?




You're right. All I can say is that the triple ladder match sure as hell does not come close to being as good as any TLC. I guess the TLC spots were SO insane and there were so many unbelievable stunts, that the TLC matches kind of transcended their spotty nature.

And in addition, TLC is a spotfest amid a story-driven match-filled card. The triple ladder match was a spotfest with ladders amidst a card full of spotfests without ladders.



Spaceman Spiff
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#6 Posted on 26.9.02 0901.16
Reposted on: 26.9.09 0901.45
The problem with that is, Chuck & Billy call their Doomsday Device the "Code Red".

Moves get "stolen" all the time. WWE guys "steal" them from indy/smaller promotion guys, and the indy guys "steal" moves from the WWE/big promotion guys. It's no big deal (unless your name is Nova).
Swordsman Yen
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#7 Posted on 26.9.02 0948.09
Reposted on: 26.9.09 0948.16

    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    The problem with that is, Chuck & Billy call their Doomsday Device the "Code Red".


"Code Red" is also what Sgt. Craig Pittman called his armlock submission hold. Would he have a case against Chuck and Billy and Mountain Dew?
tomvejada
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#8 Posted on 26.9.02 1748.02
Reposted on: 26.9.09 1748.16
Code Red was also the name of the Raw preview on wwe.com.

Mr. Boffo
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#9 Posted on 26.9.02 1750.12
Reposted on: 26.9.09 1754.23

    Originally posted by Fantomas
    Well... Remember that band who did that song 'Bittersweet Symphony'? I think they were called The Verve. The song had a sample from some classical song, and they used it without permission. As a result they got sued and thus did not and will never receive a penny in royalties for it, which sucks for them because I think that was their only hit.

I believe it was actually an accoustical (sp?) version of a Rolling Stones song. Yeah, allmusic.com agrees with me. It's from the Rolling Stones song "The Last Time". So, your point is still valid, but I'd hardly call the Rolling Stones classical. Plus, if it was an old classical song, the copyright or whatever would have expired, I think.
The Vile1
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#10 Posted on 26.9.02 1755.37
Reposted on: 26.9.09 1759.02
Oh god this is ridiculous. Moves in wrestling are not copyrighted, so what's the big deal?
darkdragoon
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#11 Posted on 26.9.02 2256.30
Reposted on: 26.9.09 2259.03

    Originally posted by Fantomas
    The best thing I can say about this company is that this is where the WWE comes to steal moves. Crash stole Styles' finisher. Misterio stole Red's kickass freaky flip thingie. I predict Red's entire arsenal will be stolen by the end of next year. I also bet we'll see the dragon clutch in a WWE match within the next three months.


Considering most of the indie guys rip off moves from Japan and Mexico, it's fair trade. I think Rey actually did the code red years earlier, and Dragon Clutch is just a fancy flipover.
Big Bad
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#12 Posted on 26.9.02 2303.00
Reposted on: 26.9.09 2312.30

    Oh god this is ridiculous. Moves in wrestling are not copyrighted, so what's the big deal?


But apparently they can be patented, according to Gorilla Monsoon. How many times did he call a guy's finisher his "patented" move? I always thought that would be a great angle; some dick heel patents the face's finisher, and then they have to have a match for the face to win the rights to the move back, while the face has to find a way to win without using his trademark move.

Iron Mike Sharpe
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#13 Posted on 27.9.02 0348.44
Reposted on: 27.9.09 0351.24
Doug jobs to Roger Klotz every day.
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#14 Posted on 27.9.02 0750.22
Reposted on: 27.9.09 0759.02
    Originally posted by Swordsman Yen

    "Code Red" is also what Sgt. Craig Pittman called his armlock submission hold. Would he have a case against Chuck and Billy and Mountain Dew?



Hah! I knew when I saw code red that some old wCw guy used that name for a move, but couldn't remember it. Thanks for the refresh.

Speaking of moves and stealing - this stuff is funny. You mean the Walls of Jericho aren't a Boston Crab and the Razor's Edge isn't a Crucifix and.....

I mean, let's think. What are some of the greatest moves in Pro wrestling? Vertical Suplex? Frankensteiner? Piledriver? DDT? German Suplex? Superplex? Top Rope splash? Other than maybe the Frankensteiner and DDT, I couldn't name any of the originators of these awesome moves.

Does that mean these moves are in the public domain?

(edited by AWArulz on 27.9.02 0851)
Scott Summets
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#15 Posted on 27.9.02 0804.08
Reposted on: 27.9.09 0816.12

    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo

      Originally posted by Fantomas
      Well... Remember that band who did that song 'Bittersweet Symphony'? I think they were called The Verve. The song had a sample from some classical song, and they used it without permission. As a result they got sued and thus did not and will never receive a penny in royalties for it, which sucks for them because I think that was their only hit.

    I believe it was actually an accoustical (sp?) version of a Rolling Stones song. Yeah, allmusic.com agrees with me. It's from the Rolling Stones song "The Last Time". So, your point is still valid, but I'd hardly call the Rolling Stones classical. Plus, if it was an old classical song, the copyright or whatever would have expired, I think.



It was an old guitar riff from a Beatles song.
Dr Unlikely
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#16 Posted on 27.9.02 0930.00
Reposted on: 27.9.09 0931.27
No, it was the Stones and "The Last Time" that they used. As to the point of the thread, since Misterio was the example and AWArulz mentioned the Frankensteiner as one of the moves that has kept the name of the guy who made it famous, I think it's interesting to remember that Misterio himself uses the Frankensteiner and specifically calls it that. In WCW, he used to yell it to the crowd before doing it.

A name sticks to a move because someone really popular used it or made it well-known. It doesn't really make sense to attribute a move to a guy who doesn't and may never work for your company (and, being unknown, hasn't popularized a move and may not even have invented it). When an announcer says "that's ___'s move" (not to be confused with the great "That's his move, Tony!"), it's because they want to create a connection with the person they're referencing. So you get a hurricanrana and Tenay explaining the Hurrican part, or you get Misterio saying "Frankensteiner!" to the WCW crowd to connect with them.

Beyond that, a lot of the indy guys have really terrible or goofy names for their moves, and they just aren't going to stick if someone comes up with an easier to remember (or just easier to not laugh at) name. That's also what it comes down to in the case of two well-known guys popularizing the same move: The Sharpshooter will probably outlast the Scorpion Deathlock as the name for the move, even if neither guy invented it, both started using it pretty close to the same time and the probable origin of Bret's name for it is a bit more obscure. It's just easier to say and sounds better. And that's usually how names stick. With the exception of the Twist of Fate, if everybody in wrestling started using all of the Hardys' moves tomorrow, I wouldn't expect the goofy names they have to last long as the common names for the moves.
AWArulz
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#17 Posted on 27.9.02 1320.28
Reposted on: 27.9.09 1322.15

    Originally posted by Dr Unlikely
    it.

    A name sticks to a move because someone really popular used it or made it well-known. It doesn't really make sense to attribute a move to a guy who doesn't and may never work for your company (and, being unknown, hasn't popularized a move and may not even have invented it). When an announcer says "that's ___'s move" (not to be confused with the great "That's his move, Tony!"), it's because they want to create a connection with the person they're referencing.



I agree. I probably always will call it a Scorpion Deathlock, because, at the time, I was pretty much exclusively watching NWA/WCW. I had heard of Bret Hart, of course, and seen him once or twice, but I stopped watching most WWF TV in the late 80s. At that time, Bret was just tagging with Jim Neidhart.

Same with the Stunner/Cutter. Pretty similar moves, but I was not watching much WWF and I saw DDP do that move a lot more than Austin. I realize those moves are somewhat different, but I always think: Diamond Cutter! when I see it. But I must admit I see it as a stunner now after watching exclusive WWF/E TV for a year or two.

Now, If only I never saw the torture rack......

Mild Mannered Madman
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#18 Posted on 27.9.02 1413.02
Reposted on: 27.9.09 1415.51

    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by Swordsman Yen

      "Code Red" is also what Sgt. Craig Pittman called his armlock submission hold. Would he have a case against Chuck and Billy and Mountain Dew?



    Hah! I knew when I saw code red that some old wCw guy used that name for a move, but couldn't remember it. Thanks for the refresh.

    Speaking of moves and stealing - this stuff is funny. You mean the Walls of Jericho aren't a Boston Crab and the Razor's Edge isn't a Crucifix and.....

    I mean, let's think. What are some of the greatest moves in Pro wrestling? Vertical Suplex? Frankensteiner? Piledriver? DDT? German Suplex? Superplex? Top Rope splash? Other than maybe the Frankensteiner and DDT, I couldn't name any of the originators of these awesome moves.

    Does that mean these moves are in the public domain?

    (edited by AWArulz on 27.9.02 0851)



Note: Scott Steiner didn't invent the Frankensteiner, nor was he even the first in the U.S. to use it. Marty Jannetty used it earlier.

Superplex: Both Dynamite Kid and Bob Orton, Jr. have been credited for inventing the maneuver.
Ubermonkeys
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#19 Posted on 27.9.02 1435.39
Reposted on: 27.9.09 1443.39
Doug jobs to Roger Klotz every day.

FREAKOUT!
darkdragoon
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#20 Posted on 27.9.02 1634.27
Reposted on: 27.9.09 1637.24
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    I mean, let's think. What are some of the greatest moves in Pro wrestling? Vertical Suplex? Frankensteiner? Piledriver? DDT? German Suplex? Superplex? Top Rope splash? Other than maybe the Frankensteiner and DDT, I couldn't name any of the originators of these awesome moves



German Suplex--Karl Gotch's Atomic Suplex
DDT--Jake The Snake.
Huracanrana/Hurricanrana-- Huracan Ramirez, the "original" Hurricane if you will.
Superplex--dunno. The Backdrop superplex is Dynamite Kid's.
Fisherman's suplex-- amateur front headlock+shot or Harley Race's Flying Cradle Suplex.
Powerbomb-- Lou Thesz (as a messedup piledriver), Jumbo Tsuruta.

Stunner and Diamond Cutter--both are based off the Ace Crusher, which was originally done by Johnny Ace with help from (Steven) William Regal and another British wrestler.

(edited by darkdragoon on 27.9.02 1435)
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