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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - A modest proposal about a "rogue state"
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vsp
Andouille
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#1 Posted on 13.8.02 1220.17
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1229.06
A little food for thought from across the ocean:

From Britain's Independent

I don't submit this to endorse it or condemn it; I merely enjoyed its undercurrent of satirical humor amidst its allegations, and thus pass it on. Don't take it too seriously. (And, yes, the piece is clearly slanted leftwards, so at least four responses of "Liberal Eurotrash drivel" are expected. Line up early to reserve one of those spots.)


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Grimis
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#2 Posted on 13.8.02 1312.34
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1313.25
It's Liberal Eurotrash drivel!


Seriously though, I am amazed that even the Europeans would stoop so low as to promote the removal of a constitutionally and legally elected head of state, something which I'd like to point out the governments in Afghanistan and Iraq are not.

And besides, their plot involves taking Washington which would seriously fuck up my morning commute. It would also assume that the European forces(probably led by the military juggernaut France that hasn't bothered to win a military campaign since Napoleon III installed a puppet in Mexico in the 1860's) wouldn't be outgunned by the drug dealers and general street thugs in the SE Quadrant of DC which, on a good day, resembles Gaza and on a bad resembles Mogadishu.
OlFuzzyBastard
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#3 Posted on 13.8.02 1346.05
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1354.09

    Originally posted by Grimis
    a constitutionally and legally elected head of state


You used that phrase just to try to get a reaction out of me, didn't you?
Grimis
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#4 Posted on 13.8.02 1401.32
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1402.01
No, just to prove a point. W was elected by a vote of 271-266(with one abstention) in the constitutionally mandated electoral college vote. All of the stuff in Florida was a disaster I admit. But the law is the law. And the law was followed(at least to the best of our knowledge).

Sidenote: which demographic group had the highest percentage of their votes disqualified in Florida?



Black Republicans
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#5 Posted on 13.8.02 1608.16
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1610.02

    Originally posted by Grimis
    And besides, their plot involves taking Washington which would seriously fuck up my morning commute. It would also assume that the European forces(probably led by the military juggernaut France that hasn't bothered to win a military campaign since Napoleon III installed a puppet in Mexico in the 1860's) wouldn't be outgunned by the drug dealers and general street thugs in the SE Quadrant of DC which, on a good day, resembles Gaza and on a bad resembles Mogadishu.


That's one thing I love about this country. Even if an invading force ever dispatched our armies, they'd have to contend with the gangs in the cities and the good ole boys in the country and that's a lot of guns, guns, guns! Just imagine the Euros in the southern woods, meeting up with a few locals. EEEEEEEEEEE! Squeal boy! EEEEEEEEEEE! Or picture L.A.: streets empty except for enemy infantry, then here comes a fleet of cars bouncing down the street, AK's and Tec-9's blazing! God Bless the second Amendment!
I understand the opinion piece was written in Satire, but does the author known anything of Americans? to think the "Minutemen" in the mountains would support an invading force when the original minutemen fired the first shots to remove a foreign army, is just rediculous.

But seriously, what the hell is up with the Europeans and specifically the Brits, since this was a British paper. We save their asses from the Germans, not once but TWICE and they just crap all over us. I mean JEEZUS! Are the Brits still pissed that we finally kicked them out of here way back when? Hey "Great" Britain: GET OVER IT ALREADY!!
OlFuzzyBastard
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#6 Posted on 13.8.02 2048.38
Reposted on: 13.8.09 2059.01

    Originally posted by Grimis
    No, just to prove a point. W was elected by a vote of 271-266(with one abstention) in the constitutionally mandated electoral college vote. All of the stuff in Florida was a disaster I admit. But the law is the law. And the law was followed(at least to the best of our knowledge).

    Sidenote: which demographic group had the highest percentage of their votes disqualified in Florida?



    Black Republicans



Oh please, don't you realize that...

You know what, I'm as sick of this conversation as I'm sure you are. Let's just both agree that the other guy is ignorant and stupid. :)
eviljonhunt81
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#7 Posted on 13.8.02 2117.08
Reposted on: 13.8.09 2129.02

    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
    Oh please, don't you realize that . . .


wait, can I finish?

"black republicans is an oxymoron"
Grimis
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#8 Posted on 14.8.02 0651.52
Reposted on: 14.8.09 0652.32
    Originally posted by eviljonhunt81

    font>


wait, can I finish?

"black republicans is an oxymoron"



Nice to see racism has now been brought to the board...

Please direct your attention to the picture below. Please note that Michael Steele(the man on the left) is Bob Ehrlich's Lt Gov running mate and CHAIRMAN of the Maryland Republican Party.

And let's not forget JC Watts, Charles Barkely, etc.

(image removed)

(edited by Grimis on 14.8.02 0752)
chazerizer
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#9 Posted on 14.8.02 0832.44
Reposted on: 14.8.09 0835.02
Eh they're just bitter because every time there's a major world conflict we kick their ass or come in to save it.

And you can smell the satire from across the room. At least I hope its satire, because if people actually think like that, I wanna go hide under the covers.
vsp
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#10 Posted on 14.8.02 0858.20
Reposted on: 14.8.09 0859.01
Black Republicans, I can understand. You don't have to be the stereotypical aging affluent white businessman to empathize with the basic tenets of today's Republican Party -- Judeo-Christian religious values, unfettered capitalism, and keeping as much money as possible in your pocket and out of the government's hands.

Now, the Log Cabin Republicans... THEM, I don't understand. A black person who supports God, Guns, Greed and Gutting Government can easily be accepted by the vast majority of Republicans, but a gay or lesbian with the same beliefs might as well be a leper to many hardcore conservatives. (Gay Libertarians make more sense to me -- similar "keep government out of my bank account" fiscal beliefs, but just as much emphasis on "keep government out of my private life," and a much smaller "Gays are EVIL and will burn in Hell" vibe around the party.)

(edited by vsp on 14.8.02 0704)
OlFuzzyBastard
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#11 Posted on 14.8.02 0933.57
Reposted on: 14.8.09 0940.29
Actually, I was talking about the election in general...

That is a misleading statistic, however, because there are so few black Republicans (I believe it was something like 93% of blacks voted for Gore in 2000 - something to that effect.), that one black republican makes up a much higher percentage than one black democrat.

But it is nice to see that Bush gave every black person who voted for him a spot in the Cabinet. :)
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#12 Posted on 14.8.02 1059.04
Reposted on: 14.8.09 1105.15
Two points: There is no such thing as 'Judeo-Christian values.' In fact, speaking purely religiously (and historically also), Christian 'values' are about a million times closer to Islamic 'values' than Jewish ones. Talk about the Republican party having 'Christian' values all you want, but kindly leave mine out of it. The fact that Jews are about 80% Democratic might give an idea that typically we donīt identify our values with the Republicans.
The fact that Christians and Jews have generally gotten along well enough for about the last 50 years or so doesnīt mean we all of a sudden have the same 'values.'

Second point: If, say, a Nicaraguan wants to talk poop about the U.S.īs foreign policy, fine. We certainly deserve it from them. Same with the Salvadorans, Chileans, Venezualans, Veitnamese, and a whole lot of other countries. But Europe can kind keep itīs stupid mouth shut. When they were in charge, what did we get? Why, two World Wars (one of which was completely unnesessary), the extermination of the people of entire continents, and a whole lot of other stuff that the guy who wrote that article would probably not think too highly of. And when we finally come to bail them out, helping them rebuild pretty much their entire continent, and generally keeping them from having to fight any big wars or spend their money on the military for the last 50 years, they get all snobby on us and the way weīre taking care of business currently. Hey, our track record isnīt perfect. But itīs a hell of lot better than yours.


vsp
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#13 Posted on 14.8.02 1122.17
Reposted on: 14.8.09 1129.02
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Two points: There is no such thing as 'Judeo-Christian values.' In fact, speaking purely religiously (and historically also), Christian 'values' are about a million times closer to Islamic 'values' than Jewish ones. Talk about the Republican party having 'Christian' values all you want, but kindly leave mine out of it. The fact that Jews are about 80% Democratic might give an idea that typically we donīt identify our values with the Republicans.
    The fact that Christians and Jews have generally gotten along well enough for about the last 50 years or so doesnīt mean we all of a sudden have the same 'values.'



Fair enough. Actually, even just lumping "Christian" values together is a dangerous practice -- there are endless variations and denominations, many at odds with one another. Likewise, the average practitioner of a particular religion and its policy-drivers and public spokesmen are often on very different paths.

The Christian evangelicals and the Jewish community are both outspoken about US support for Israel, for instance, but for very different reasons in many cases.

As for Europe, and the "they screwed up regularly, so they shouldn't criticize us" argument... I don't buy it. Whether what the US is doing now is laudable or not is independent of how European nations have acted or continue to act; just because one isn't optimal doesn't imply that the other one is inherently better.

(And do I squirm when a British journalist criticizes our government, and reply "Well, YOUR government's screwed up too?" Nope. I'm sure he knows that already, and has as much say in his government's actions as I have in mine -- essentially nil.)


(edited by vsp on 14.8.02 0932)
MoeGates
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#14 Posted on 14.8.02 1146.00
Reposted on: 14.8.09 1159.01
Eh, Iīm probably just upset at Europeans because I been here for 12 weeks.

My point is not intelligent criticism and discussion is contingent on where you happen to live. My point is that (many times, such as in that article) Europeans are incredibly smug about how theyīre so much more ethical, rational, peace-loving, and superior to us Americans (you should hear these people get started on the Dealth Penalty debate. Itīs like thereīs no difference between killing Jeffery Dahmer and throwing a nun into a volcano), while their history (and present, donīt get me started on their attitudes toward immigrants) shows that they really have pretty much no reason to think this. In short, I donīt mind if Europeans give their views, many of which are pretty similar to my own, but better do it in a nice, deferential way.

EDIT: Because I spelled, of all words, 'Intelligent' wrong. In fact, Iīm not so sure Iīve got it right now.

(edited by MoeGates on 14.8.02 1247)
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#15 Posted on 14.8.02 1224.37
Reposted on: 14.8.09 1229.03
Europeans are so wacked-out, leftist (with the exception of some far right wingers hanging around), and, as Moe is pointing out, smug as hell, that I don't think any of them need be taken very seriously at this point, with the exception of a few level-headed blokes in Britian.

(For the record, not to start a whole other thread, but when people speak of "Judeo-Christian values", they obviously are not meaning to include the large percentage of Democratic, liberal Jews currently living in America. It speaks of the old, historic, Old Testament beliefs of traditional Jews and Judaism [i.e. the Ten Commandments] which Christians in general also accept. Obviously Jews and Christians have never agreed 100% on all beliefs and values, so the statement was never meant to imply as much.)

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#16 Posted on 14.8.02 1315.24
Reposted on: 14.8.09 1322.32
A quick response - As much as I hate to say this, we didn't do so much of a better job than the Europeans. You say they had two world wars. Would you have blamed this country for a world war if Cuba had attacked us? I wouldn't, and I don't think you would have either. Comes right down to it, I'd say we're tied in the 'Fucking things up' category.

EDIT: I screwed up the post the first time, and had to re-wrte the whole thing. Nothing actually got changed.

(edited by chazerizer on 14.8.02 1424)
vsp
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#17 Posted on 14.8.02 1342.09
Reposted on: 14.8.09 1349.16
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    My point is that (many times, such as in that article) Europeans are incredibly smug about how theyīre so much more ethical, rational, peace-loving, and superior to us Americans (you should hear these people get started on the Death Penalty debate. Itīs like thereīs no difference between killing Jeffrey Dahmer and throwing a nun into a volcano), while their history (and present, donīt get me started on their attitudes toward immigrants) shows that they really have pretty much no reason to think this.


This is a double-edged sword, of course. I've heard many Americans (famous and otherwise) drone on for hours about how AMERICANS are more ethical, rational, peace-loving, superior et al. than anyone else in the world, and who choose to ignore the many ugly and appalling things done by our country and our citizens over the years. I've heard the refrain more than once that America is justified in dominating world politics, military and economic affairs because "it's in the rest of the world's best interest." HUH?

Do our country and our citizens do many praiseworthy, constructive and laudable things, too? Of course. But the good shouldn't negate the bad. Doing great things at one time doesn't exempt us from criticism later on. The positive things accomplished by the US government shouldn't prevent others from calling it out when it's doing things that are anything but beneficial to them or to the world at large. (And who decides what's beneficial and what isn't, or when it's appropriate for America to act from blatant self-interest and when it should be one part of a global many? That's a stand-in-the-other-side's-shoes judgement call.)

And let's not overgeneralize -- not ALL Europeans are rabid anti-Americans. Some are. (Of course, some are complaining about the same kinds of things that liberals in the US complain about.) So what? From their perspective, they're probably about as justified in labeling us as Americans are of them.

But painting Europe with one broad brush is like a European saying "Look at what Bush is trying to do now! America is a bunch of arrogant bastards." It discounts differences in opinion on both sides. Only the negative rants tend to make the news or the editorial pages.


(edited by vsp on 14.8.02 1143)
DMC
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#18 Posted on 14.8.02 1400.37
Reposted on: 14.8.09 1402.14
"Do our country and our citizens do many praiseworthy, constructive and laudable things, too? Of course. But the good shouldn't negate the bad. Doing great things at one time doesn't exempt us from criticism later on."

Amen brother! That's the Gospel!
Oh, and I agree. America is not blameless either. But I still think that there are extreme events that have gone on in Europe (in quantity and quality) that do not necessairly have their equivalent here. These events are some of the very reasons why Europeans are so jaded and "wacked" when compared to Americans.

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#19 Posted on 14.8.02 1716.32
Reposted on: 14.8.09 1729.01

    Originally posted by chazerizer
    A quick response - As much as I hate to say this, we didn't do so much of a better job than the Europeans. You say they had two world wars. Would you have blamed this country for a world war if Cuba had attacked us? I wouldn't, and I don't think you would have either. Comes right down to it, I'd say we're tied in the 'Fucking things up' category.

    EDIT: I screwed up the post the first time, and had to re-wrte the whole thing. Nothing actually got changed.

    (edited by chazerizer on 14.8.02 1424)



Therer is a slight difference between "hey they attacked us, let's get 'em" and "hey, my 3rd cousin the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne got offed by a Serbian radical but we promised the Serbs that if Austria tried any funny stuff we'd come to their aid, let's get 'e,"(for the Russian exampe).

World War I was started because Archduke Ferdinand got offed. MILLIONS died because of this.

World War II started because of a combination of 1)peaceniks fucking up the first time at Versailles when really wanted to stick it to Germany, and the whole League of Nations business, and 2) because nobody wanted to stand up to Germany before they invade the freeway of Europe, Poland.

So let's all agree to blame WWI and WWII on France and their complete inability to defend themselves.
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#20 Posted on 14.8.02 1843.56
Reposted on: 14.8.09 1846.29

    Originally posted by Grimis
    So let's all agree to blame WWI and WWII on France and their complete inability to defend themselves.



    Originally posted by Grimis
    Nice to see racism has now been brought to the board...
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