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jfkfc
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#1 Posted on 12.8.02 1617.15
Reposted on: 12.8.09 1620.23
Two words. Alphonso and Soriano.

Definitely 30/30 from the leadoff spot, playing a better 2B (he is no Mazeroski in the field), and just all around great. Not exactly carrying the team, but has been great in the clutch...
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TheCow
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#2 Posted on 12.8.02 1642.29
Reposted on: 12.8.09 1644.50
First off, it's Alfonso Soriano, and secondly, I don't agree with you that he'll get it, nor do I agree that he's even the MVP this year.

He's playing on a great team; any significant contributions will be modified somewhat, simply because of his outstanding supporting cast. He's got Giambi, Williams, Jeter (not in that order) hitting behind him. Yeah, he'll be 30/30, maybe 40/40, I'm not denying that. I'm not saying that he's not a great player - he is. I just don't think he's the best player in the AL.

My personal choice? A-Rod. Hands down, the best player in the AL right now, probably will go down as the best shortstop ever, if he doesn't have that title yet. It's only indirectly his fault that he's surrounded by a bad team. How bad they'd be without him is scary.
However, by the same token, Torii Hunter is doing much the same thing in Minnesota. Average and power, supporting his team. Both good players, both more worthy of the MVP award than Soriano (in my opinion, at least).
The Psycho Pirate
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#3 Posted on 12.8.02 1820.58
Reposted on: 12.8.09 1821.11

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Jubuki
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#4 Posted on 12.8.02 1939.24
Reposted on: 12.8.09 1943.49
Ichiro's year isn't better thus far than it was last year. Granted, he *deserves* it more this year, as he's the only one having a superlative year with the bat while there were 3 others last year who peaked, but he won't actually get it unless sports writers really take a powder before voting. Soriano's the most-talented 5-hole hitter hitting leadoff in the league, Hell, maybe in history, but the Yanks would still be the Yanks without him. Imagine them with Ichiro on top, and then you REALLY have a fucking scary line-up. Rodriguez doesn't deserve the MVP simply because his team sucks and would suck without him, therefore his value is two things: jack and shit. There's "valuable" in the title for a reason, after all. Hunter probably deserves it most, as he's a big piece of the puzzle in Minnesota and is producing more for his team than Ichiro is.
Whitebacon
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#5 Posted on 12.8.02 2210.15
Reposted on: 12.8.09 2211.05
I agree with Jubuki. The key word is value. It has to be taken into the context of the the talent surrounding the player and how the team does as a whole. The Rangers suck, plain and simple. If the award was for Most Outstanding Player or best player, A-Rod wins hands down, no questions asked.(Of course, if he signed the 190 million dollar contract offered by Hicks, instead of the 252 million dollar contract that Hicks bid himself up on, he might have a better supporting cast, but, thats a different thread) Ichiro's not having as good of a season as he did last year, but is still performing very well, and I think it would take a 50-50 season from Soriano for him to get the award. I don't mean to take anything away from his accomplishments, but he's still a bit shaky in the field sometimes, and isn't the best leadoff hitter in the traditional sense of the position, but he is a very very good ballplayer and will be a force in years to come. Another drawback with him is that he's a Yankee, and how do you determine which guy on that team has the most value? Giambi's numbers are very good, so are Jeters, normally Rivera would warrant mention here, but he's battled injury. Hunter on the other hand, contributes nightly, be it on the field, or at the plate. Of course, its easier to make a case why someone shouldn't be than should be.
Tom Dean
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#6 Posted on 12.8.02 2307.15
Reposted on: 12.8.09 2308.51
Thing is that it isn't A-Rod's fault his team is bad, is it? Why should having great teammates win you an individual award?
The idea of an award that is both an individual award and a team award makes no sense. That's the problem, really.
deadbeater
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#7 Posted on 13.8.02 0326.27
Reposted on: 13.8.09 0329.03
Soriano helps his team win.

A-Rod helps his team lose by fewer runs.

If A-Rod spot starts and help the Rangers win a few more games that way, then he gets MVP. But not until then.
Grimis
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#8 Posted on 13.8.02 0606.46
Reposted on: 13.8.09 0625.26
Torrii Hunter. Could you possibly imagine where the Twins would be without him.

And let's not get too far into the A-Rod thing. He is having a hell of a year, but how valuable is a guy on a shitty team? Sure Ripken won in '91 and Dawson won in '87, so it could happen; but that doesn't mean it should.
skorpio17
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#9 Posted on 13.8.02 0828.49
Reposted on: 13.8.09 0829.03
The correct answer is Soriano. You have to consider the position the player plays and his numbers relative to all the other second baseman. He is head and shoulders above the rest. This is why A-Rod is a good choice for number 2. Other outfielders need Bonds/Sosa numbers to be considered.
jfkfc
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#10 Posted on 13.8.02 0916.53
Reposted on: 13.8.09 0920.12
My bad on putting the ph in Alfonso. I agree, the Yanks would more than likely be in first place with.....let's say D'Angelo Jimenez (sp?) at 2B (trying to think of who might be playing 2B if it wasn't Soriano, cuz I ain't gonna say Chuckie Knobs) or maybe even Enrique Wilson, although it would be a big hole to fill. I could see Torii Hunter, although at last check, he had the same, if not 1 or 2 less rbi from the 3-hole than Soriano had from the leadoff spot. Certainly not the deciding factor, but in my opinion, leadoff-spot RBI opportunities are certainly less than that of your 3rd hitter (though the Yankee's bottom half of the lineup aren't too shabby). As Skorpio17 pointed out, you have to put some weight on the fact that you are getting this kind of production from the 2B slot.

Regarding A-Rod, the Rangers would certainly suck more without him, but however you slice it, the Rangers suck, Andre Dawson factor or no Andre Dawson factor.

Sooner or later, they are going to have to give the Yanks an MVP award. This is the first time that they have had a truly dominant player throughout their (past 8 year) run, and it just so happens that they have 2 (not including Bernie, who is great, but no MVP candidate).

Ichiro, the best pure leadoff hitter in baseball, is a truly valuable componenet of the Mariners, and whereas a consideration, has veritably no power numbers to speak of.

Again, in my opinion, the only other guys that would merit consideration are Giambi, Garciaparra, Tejada, and Hillenbrand. If one were going to consider pitchers, you could include Washburn, Lowe, and Pedro as truly valuable players. I am not a fan of pitchers being MVP's, though.
Tom Dean
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#11 Posted on 13.8.02 1133.44
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1138.57

    Originally posted by deadbeater
    Soriano helps his team win.

    A-Rod helps his team lose by fewer runs.



Still not his fault though, is it?
Jubuki
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#12 Posted on 13.8.02 1156.48
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1159.15
Actually, yeah, it is his fault for having that shit contract. If he takes 5 mil a year and does it because 'he wants to win' and gets some guys on in front of him, as well as a worthwhile pitching staff, then imagine how his stats look. The trick to this award is to imagine the team without the player and consider whether or not they would have their level of success without him; plenty of teams suck without Rodriguez, but Texas manages to suck with him. I don't see why he should be rewarded for that.

I don't think comparing numbers to other second basemen is a valid argument, either; a player either puts up great numbers, or he doesn't put up great numbers. Right now, Soriano is putting up some big stats, and he'd still be putting them up if he dicked around in left or played over at short. Being a second baseman has little to do with what happens to him when he gets in the box and has to get on base or drive someone in. The only impact his position has on him is his defense, and I'd have to say he's not too good. There are a ton of guys who play the position that well, some who have put up big power numbers and play better. That's one reason I felt like Bret Boone deserved it last year more than Ichiro -- Boone put up bigger power numbers, AND his defense was as good at 2nd as Ichiro's was in right.
Tom Dean
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#13 Posted on 13.8.02 1207.33
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1209.20
Clever, but, I never heard of salary being a factor in this award before. No one seems to feel that A-Rod is NOT the best individual player, or that they would be reluctant to trade any of the other players mentioned here for A-Rod. That means that if Soriano (or whoever) wins it over A-Rod, the sole reason will be that Soriano's teammates are better. Yet the award goes on Soriano's mantle, and the record books will say "2002 AL MVP: Alfonso Soriano." Does that really make sense? It isn't logical. You're giving out an individual award based on team accomplishment.
The Big Kat
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#14 Posted on 13.8.02 1209.16
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1209.59
Torii Hunter would be my pick. Soriano is having a great season, but I think with the loaded lineup around him, that diminishes him a little in the voters' eyes. I'm not saying that's right, but that's how it is.

I don't think Ichiro will repeat, he was a sensation last year by winning the batting title on the best team in the regular season, but now the novlety has worn off, and Ichiro is a very good singles hitter.

Hunter is the leader of the AL Central leaders, a team that came out of nowhere to (probably) make the playoffs. He is hitting for power, average, and playing great defense.

I don't see a player from a second-tier team winning the MVP for a while. I know it happened with Ripken and Dawson a while back, but A-Rod is on just a horrible team.
TheCow
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#15 Posted on 13.8.02 1237.26
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1240.41
Someone a while back mentioned fielding ability - believe it was Whitebacon. For that, I direct you here. Surprisingly, Hunter hasn't been helping as much in the field as you would think.

Reluctantly, I do have to agree that A-Rod probably won't get the MVP award; however, my point is that he probably deserves it the most. Hunter is the logical second (not first) choice (read the link and find out why I say that). That being said, he'll still probably win it (not that I'll raise hell over it).

...Jubuki, in all fairness, say you were offered 2 contracts by the same employer, one for $100,000 a year, the other for $175,000 a year. You'd do the same work. Which one would you take? Personally speaking, I'd go for more money. It's not A-Rod's fault that Hicks isn't too bright.
jfkfc
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#16 Posted on 13.8.02 1330.18
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1331.27
Being that it is called the "Most Valuable Player" award, you would give it to AROD with the contention that he is the most valuable player to his team? So the Rangers would suck less? If the Rangers were at least respectable in the standings, not necessarily in first or second, but hovering around .500, I could say, "yeah, that team without ARod would be Tampa-Bay bad". The thing of it is, sure he makes them better, but a wise sage once told me:

"You can't shine shit."

I apply this to ARod being the best player, but of no value to his team, since they totally suck with him. With Soriano, you could tell me all that you like he is already on a stacked team, and that said, they would probably win without him. I would agree to a point. With Hunter, he is on a decent team (unheralded and devoid of "big names", but nonetheless very solid), but that division is total shit. They aren't 13 games ahead of the second place team because the 2002 Twins are the second coming of the 1927 Yankees. They are 13 games up because they are a good team in a division where every other team blows dead rats. Granted, Toronto, Baltimore, and Tampa eat ass also, but at least the Yanks contend with the Bosox...

Soriano=MVP.
Tom Dean
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#17 Posted on 13.8.02 1352.48
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1354.26
I realize I'm probably not going to change the way that people have thought about this award their entire lives... nor is it probably worth it to get all theoretical when we all know A-Rod won't actually win the thing... but lemme just say one more thing. Let's say you have $10 in your wallet, and I have $6 in my wallet. We each want to buy a red herring that costs $100. Who has the Most Valuable Wallet? You do. Now, maybe you're unable to get up the other $90 some other way, while I figure out a way to get the other $94 and buy the red herring. That's great. But it doesn't change the fact that your wallet is more valuable than my wallet.
JayJayDean
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#18 Posted on 13.8.02 1508.56
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1509.36

    Originally posted by T.R.
    I realize I'm probably not going to change the way that people have thought about this award their entire lives... nor is it probably worth it to get all theoretical when we all know A-Rod won't actually win the thing... but lemme just say one more thing. Let's say you have $10 in your wallet, and I have $6 in my wallet. We each want to buy a red herring that costs $100. Who has the Most Valuable Wallet? You do. Now, maybe you're unable to get up the other $90 some other way, while I figure out a way to get the other $94 and buy the red herring. That's great. But it doesn't change the fact that your wallet is more valuable than my wallet.


Yeah, but with what you seem to be getting at, the question should be how much did your wallet cost? If my wallet cost $20 but has $10 in it and your wallet cost $40 but has $6 in it, your wallet is still better, it just doesn't have as much money in it. I'd say A-Rod has a huge, expensive empty wallet, whereas Hunter and Soriano have average wallets stuffed with cash. You'd rather have the one with the cash, because it's more VALUABLE, even though it's not better.
jfkfc
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#19 Posted on 13.8.02 1532.11
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1556.27

    Originally posted by JayJayDean

      Originally posted by T.R.
      I realize I'm probably not going to change the way that people have thought about this award their entire lives... nor is it probably worth it to get all theoretical when we all know A-Rod won't actually win the thing... but lemme just say one more thing. Let's say you have $10 in your wallet, and I have $6 in my wallet. We each want to buy a red herring that costs $100. Who has the Most Valuable Wallet? You do. Now, maybe you're unable to get up the other $90 some other way, while I figure out a way to get the other $94 and buy the red herring. That's great. But it doesn't change the fact that your wallet is more valuable than my wallet.


    Yeah, but with what you seem to be getting at, the question should be how much did your wallet cost? If my wallet cost $20 but has $10 in it and your wallet cost $40 but has $6 in it, your wallet is still better, it just doesn't have as much money in it. I'd say A-Rod has a huge, expensive empty wallet, whereas Hunter and Soriano have average wallets stuffed with cash. You'd rather have the one with the cash, because it's more VALUABLE, even though it's not better.



But if I had a wallet with pictures of people I didn't know, and JayJayDean had a picture of a chick in his wallet that was butt-ugly, and T.R. had a picture of some topless hotties, than I would say T.R.'s wallet was definitely the most valuable. That said, if T.R's wallet also had a 3 year old receipt from getting his shoeheel fixed, and my wallet had some lint and a coupon for $.25 off my next purchase of Frosted Flakes in it, and JayJayDean's wallet had a dime stuck inside, JayJayDean's wallet is still more valuable than mine, since my coupon only has a cash value of 1/50th of a cent.

Now, keeping all of that in mind, what does it mean?


Soriano is still the MVP, ARod is the best player in the AL, the Rangers suck, and I guess my brain is fried after a full day at work to the point that I just simply couldn't follow T.R.'s wallet analogy, not to mention JayJayDean's follow-up.
JayJayDean
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#20 Posted on 13.8.02 1628.08
Reposted on: 13.8.09 1629.01
Actually, that's not a dime, it's the condom that's been in there since I was 12. It's still good, right?
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