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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - UN Confirms Lance Storm is right (well not totally)Top 20 countries listed Register and log in to post!
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Grimis
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#21 Posted on 30.7.02 1004.54
Reposted on: 30.7.09 1018.56
Instead of staying in a pissing contest about whether socialist medicine or free-market medicine is better, let's just all agree to agree that welfare was a horrible idea.
Mr. Heat Miser
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#22 Posted on 30.7.02 1412.10
Reposted on: 30.7.09 1429.03
Well, Grimis, I was willing to leave well enough alone, but it is really difficult for me to accept the concept of welfare is a horrible idea.

And before I get written off as a commie/pinko type, let me say that I'm defending the concept, and not the execution, since the execution differs wildly from location to location. The concept is quite easy to defend from a position of pure self interest.

Let's (only for the sake of argument) ignore the happiness, health and security of those who are unable/unwilling to make it in a free market economy. Let's imagine that basic necessities (and I mean basic - shelter, clothing, enough food not to starve, enough health care not to die) can't be obtained by these individuals through standard means (ie working for a living). This leaves these individuals three options, as I see it.

Beg, borrow, or steal.

I think it's clear that having the "underclass" stealing from you and I in order to survive is undesirable. If folks are that poor, no one will loan them sufficient resources. Begging for survival might be acceptable, but the ability of the economically self sustaining population to provide charity will fluctuate, and may or may not be sufficiant to keep those who need assistance alive and relatively lawful and peaceful. There is a point where the cost of increased law enforcement to keep the majority of the population safe is going to exceed the cost of providing welfare support to those who need it.

Like I said, I'm not defending the execution of welfare in any particular jurisdiction, but, c'mon, it's a little extreme to declare flat-out that welfare is a horrible idea.

PS Dahak - It's really difficult to find accurate figures on the per capita health care costs that compare equivalent expenditures between different countries. I'm working on it, and will post if I find anything good.

(edit) Here it is: total expenditures by country as a percentage of GDP - I'm a little bit surprised by what I've found, to be honest. It seems like we should be investigating how countries other than Canada & the US do things. Source is noted below, figures are as of 1991. More recent , less verifiable figures have US at 13.4%-14% and Canada at 9.5%. The sources below were the least obviously biased that I found.

AGING VIGNETTE #22

A Quick Portrait on Canadian Health and Seniors
How Much Does Health Care Cost in Canada?

~ Total national expenditures for the health care system were $67 billion
in 1991, or 9.9% of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP). Canada has one of the most expensive public health care systems in the world.

Countries % of GDP spent on health care
in 1991

Canada 9.9%
United States 13.4%
United Kingdom 6.6%
Germany 8.5%
France 9.1%
Japan 6.6%


Sources:
Health Canada. Health Information Division. Health expenditures in Canada:
Provincial/territorial summary report 1987-1991. Ottawa: February 1994.

Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). OECD health
data, software package, version 1.5. Paris: 1993.



(edited by Mr. Heat Miser on 30.7.02 1732)
Dahak
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#23 Posted on 30.7.02 2023.56
Reposted on: 30.7.09 2029.04
The point I was making about Universal Health Care and Welfare isn't that it shouldn't be in place. I actually support most social services. What I don't support is the way they keep a permantent underclass. Now health care is different than welfare granted but it will reinforce the belief of the 1 or 2% who think that the govt. owes them a living for free.
I think the govt. should pay certain basic medical services for all it's citizens and I mean citizens. Ob visits are very important for the future child's health and fairly cheap. Same with Baby well visits and immunizations. Yearly check up to catch problems in the early stages for all people also would in the long run be cheaper and have a far more healthy populous.
What I don't support is the Larry Hagman and Mickey Mantle syndrom. Life long alcholics and drug addicts that cost millions of dollars to keep alive 1 or 2 years longer so they can live in agony. I believe people make their own choices and should live with those and it's not the U.S. govts job to tell us what to do or to bail our asses out.
Mr. Heat Miser
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#24 Posted on 31.7.02 0947.12
Reposted on: 31.7.09 0953.22
Dahak - seems to me like we're actually agreeing, even if I'm not being too clear about it.


to sum up=

Universal, Basic, Necessary, Healthcare = good

Cosmetic Surgery + Larry Hagman's Liver + similar situations = things which, should an individual want or them, they should pay for by their own damn selves, unsubsidised by you and I and the government.

Seems logical enough, eh?

I'm going to stop responding now, before we get asked to take it to the private messages.
WyldeWolf1
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#25 Posted on 31.7.02 1135.37
Reposted on: 31.7.09 1159.03
Thought I'd throw in the medical community's perspective here.

The reason we have what problems we do with health care in the US is not because it is free market; it's because it's some mongrel semi-socialist setup given to us by the Clintons in their early years.

Here's an example of how things work with HMOs from the perspective of a doctor.

A patient comes in with some problem, and the doctor determines that he needs an MRI. MRIs cost quite a bit to have and run, so of course it's going to cost the patient. However, the HMO says that if a patient comes in and has an MRI, it must be free, but if they come in for the MRI on a different day, they can be charged. Also, there is a limit on how much a patient may be charged per visit. This is why many patients have to make so many visits to the doctor rather than one longer visit.

The doctor has to pay overhead (office rent, employee wages, etc) just like everyone else. Let's say it costs him $100 dollars an hour to maintain things (these numbers are just made-up). Before HMOs, if a patient required an hour of treatment, he'd just charge them $100; they got what they paid for. Let's say the HMO limits the cost to $30 per visit. Now the doctor has to see 3-4 patients to stay in business. Ever feel like medical examinations operate on a fast-food basis? This is why.

Hospitals (especially research hospitals) are going out of business left and right in this country because they are not allowed to charge as much as it costs to run things. That is, unless you'd like to forfeit leading medicines, instruments, cleanliness, etc.

On top of that, it is becoming less appealing to enter the medical field in this country. Let me tell you what it is like, since my medical school applications are out as we speak. First, you have to work your ass off in college, studying when most people are partying. Then you go to medical school, which is as tough as they come. We're talking 4 years, including clinicals. Then the personal hell of being an intern, and then residency, where they use you like a pack animal. Some specialties require several years of residency and then several years of a fellowship. All in all, in order to become a doctor, one must go over $100,000 in debt and give up one's time between the ages of 21 and 30! I'm doing this because I have a passion for it, and earnestly desire to help people. But I'm like you, too. I have a new wife, and am looking forward to having children, but am forced to give up so much time and delay many dreams just so I can enter a field where I am called overpaid for saving people's lives.

If you think doctors make money hand-over-fist, you're wrong. Business majors make much more. Some specialties like dermatology and plastic surgery lead to high wages because they're usually not covered by insurance, and must be paid for in full. This is the exception, not the rule.

So give your doctor a pat on the back, will ya?
Tom Dean
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#26 Posted on 31.7.02 1150.49
Reposted on: 31.7.09 1159.13
Are you sure doctors need a pat on the back from me? Because if your post is any indication, they're patting themselves on the back at far greater length than I ever could.
Grimis
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#27 Posted on 31.7.02 1201.39
Reposted on: 31.7.09 1202.26

    Originally posted by T.R.
    Are you sure doctors need a pat on the back from me? Because if your post is any indication, they're patting themselves on the back at far greater length than I ever could.


Oh give me a break. Doctors are going out of business all over the country not only because of the reasons Wolf mentioned, by because the cost of malpractice insurance has skyrocketed thanks to frivilous lawsuits filed by trial lawyers over issues that doctors and hospitals had no control over in the first place. Why just this month the trauma unit at a major Las Vegas hospital closed because of the rising costs of insurance. 15 percent of OB/GYNs have stopped practicing due to costs. Many doctors now have the choice of 1) packing up and heading for Maine(home to the lowest malpractice insurance in the country) or 2) finding new work.

I salute the doctors of the world, because while some of you make Lance Storm seem to be the life of the party, you still have to put up with the bullshit of the HMOs and that aint bad.
Bizzle Izzle
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#28 Posted on 31.7.02 1540.25
Reposted on: 31.7.09 1559.01

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by T.R.
      Are you sure doctors need a pat on the back from me? Because if your post is any indication, they're patting themselves on the back at far greater length than I ever could.


    Oh give me a break. Doctors are going out of business all over the country not only because of the reasons Wolf mentioned, by because the cost of malpractice insurance has skyrocketed thanks to frivilous lawsuits filed by trial lawyers over issues that doctors and hospitals had no control over in the first place. Why just this month the trauma unit at a major Las Vegas hospital closed because of the rising costs of insurance. 15 percent of OB/GYNs have stopped practicing due to costs. Many doctors now have the choice of 1) packing up and heading for Maine(home to the lowest malpractice insurance in the country) or 2) finding new work.

    I salute the doctors of the world, because while some of you make Lance Storm seem to be the life of the party, you still have to put up with the bullshit of the HMOs and that aint bad.


Great point Grimis. i was going to mention that until i saw your post.
The trial lawyers have pumped tens of millions of lobbyist dollars to the democrats in recent years. The reason is to fight off the Republicans who are against limiting financial damages in medical malpractice suits. The democrats are always whining about their "patients bill of rights" and accuse the Republicans of only caring about big corporate HMOs and MONEY. But in reality, it's the democrats and their lawyer friends who are the greedy SOB's. As Grimis pointed out, many areas are suffering from a lack of Doctors. In a recent US News & World Report article , they mentioned how OB/GYN doctors are fleeing las vegas due to outrageous insurance premiums. The Dems/leftists want a Patients Bill of Rights? What they are doing is making it harder for some people to get healthcare now. If the doctors are fleeing high premium areas, what happens to the people who live there? Those with money can afford to go outside their home area, but what about the poor people? OB/GYN doctors are fleeing their fields at alarming rates. There are areas of the country who are due for a serious healthcare shortage. All because the trial lawyers and democrats want people to be able to sue with no limit to financial gains.


So what's going to happen when doctors flee and there's no healthcare? Hillary clinton has the answer. Socialized Healthcare. The clintonistas couldn't get their socialist plans through congress so the dems have changed tactics. I'm sure they are just waiting to pounce on the issue when people are dying and call for government healthcare. To my fellow americans: wake up and look to our brothers in the north. it's only a matter of time before we have state run healthcare, brought to you by the dems/leftists and their trial lawyer friends.
chazerizer
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#29 Posted on 2.8.02 1248.33
Reposted on: 2.8.09 1259.05
Jesus, I'm going to have to reconsider my own med school applications.
Grimis
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#30 Posted on 2.8.02 1327.04
Reposted on: 2.8.09 1329.10

    Originally posted by chazerizer
    Jesus, I'm going to have to reconsider my own med school applications.


Now I feel like I have either done a service to somebody thanks to wienerboard, or a disservice by dissuading somebody from doing what they wanted to do...
chazerizer
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#31 Posted on 5.8.02 1547.35
Reposted on: 5.8.09 1559.02

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by chazerizer
      Jesus, I'm going to have to reconsider my own med school applications.


    Now I feel like I have either done a service to somebody thanks to wienerboard, or a disservice by dissuading somebody from doing what they wanted to do...



Just kidding - actually, I posted them today - now the nightmare begins
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