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The 7 - Pro Wrestling - Continued from another fed-- who is more decorated?
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ekedolphin
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#1 Posted on 10.7.02 0549.02
Reposted on: 10.7.09 0559.01
[Edit: Sorry, the title should have read: Continued from another THREAD, not fed.]

Well... it depends upon how many world titles you think Ric Flair has won. Estimates have ranged from 13 to as high as 20; current WWE programming has the number at 16.

According to my research, Ric Flair held the NWA version of the title ten times. During his tenth title reign, Flair's recognition as champion was revoked by the NWA when WCW split from it. WCW recognized Flair's title as the WCW International World Heavyweight Title until it was unified with the WCW World Heavyweight Title held by Sting.

In WCW, Flair had eight reigns as the World Heavyweight Champion. If you disallow the first and last one, you have six. (It can be argued that Flair's first title reign was merely an extension of his reign as NWA World Heavyweight Champion, while he didn't win the title the eighth time he held it-- he was handed the title by Kevin Nash).

So, for the sake of this discussion, let's say 16 times in WCW and the NWA. Add two for the WWF, and you have Flair as an 18-time World Heavyweight Champion.

Flair held the NWA World Tag Team Title thrice-- twice with Greg Valentine and once with Blackjack Mulligan. He held the NWA U.S. Title five times, and the WCW U.S. Title once. So, that makes for 27 reigns if that's all he's had, which I don't know for a fact.

Booker T held the WCW World Heavyweight Title five times [once in the WCW controlled by WWFE]-- if you don't believe me, just ask him. He won the U.S. Title once, the TV Title six times, and the Tag Team Title eleven times [once in the WCW controlled by WWFE]. That makes for 23 reigns.

So, your winner is Ric Flair.

(edited by ekedolphin on 10.7.02 0649)
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dMp
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#2 Posted on 10.7.02 0606.33
Reposted on: 10.7.09 0612.21
Hmmm..interesting..
so why does everybody say 16 time btw? which two are they skipping?
I seem to recall btw reading Booker had 25 titles..
Probably they suddenly started counting the house show exchanges between him and Benoit during their feud back then..

Thanks for the research, I personally hate looking up stuff
Hehe..whenever I think of Flair holding a lesser WCW title I think of him and Syxx stealing his belt..leading to the pieces of ass statement ;)
ekedolphin
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#3 Posted on 10.7.02 0725.32
Reposted on: 10.7.09 0729.02
dMp,

Yeah, I included Booker's TV Title exchanges with Chris Benoit as part of the research.

As for why everyone says 16 times... well, I don't know. It may have something to do with the fact that Flair was NWA Champion at the time WCW broke off, and he was named the first WCW World Champion. Many people don't include the first WCW reign as being a separate reign.

Hell of it is, Booker's much, much closer than I thought he was.
Bullitt
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#4 Posted on 10.7.02 0728.19
Reposted on: 10.7.09 0729.03

    Originally posted by dMp
    Hmmm..interesting..
    so why does everybody say 16 time btw? which two are they skipping?



I would imagine that's because JR has been referring to Flair as a 16-time world champion on RAW. At least that's why I've been going with the 16 title reigns...
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#5 Posted on 10.7.02 0759.49
Reposted on: 10.7.09 0800.34
I would imagine that another reign is lost due to the Tatsumi Fuginami (sp) controversy. Flair was beaten for the title in Japan, but WCW didn't want to count the win for one reason or another. The dispute was settled at the first Superbrawl. Some counted this as a seperate reign for Flair when the controversy was settled, and some counted it as the same reign.

Also, some people skip his last NWA/WCW International title reign as they viewed they title as meaningless.
Scott Summets
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#6 Posted on 10.7.02 0953.25
Reposted on: 10.7.09 0959.01
Including house shows, then the most title reigns so far is by Crash Holly.
SmooveK
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#7 Posted on 10.7.02 1007.14
Reposted on: 10.7.09 1007.22

    Originally posted by Scott Summets
    Including house shows, then the most title reigns so far is by Crash Holly.


No.

Crash Holly has had 19 title runs with the Hardcore title, while Raven has had 23. In addition, Raven has been ECW tag champ, world champ, and I'm SURE held some WCW titles (I'm shaky on post 1995 WCW stuff). Crash only had the tag title once, and the Euro title once or twice.

Does anyone know how many titles Raven has had, if the 23 Hardcore reigns are included (which they shouldn't, but anyway)?

-K
kazhayashi81
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#8 Posted on 10.7.02 1213.43
Reposted on: 10.7.09 1216.02
Raven held the ECW World Title Twice, the ECW World Tag Team Title 4 Times, the WCW World Tag Team Title once, and the WCW U.S. Title once.

So, with the 23 Hardcore Reigns.. that's... 30.
Mild Mannered Madman
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#9 Posted on 10.7.02 1327.56
Reposted on: 10.7.09 1329.03

    Originally posted by kazhayashi81
    Raven held the ECW World Title Twice, the ECW World Tag Team Title 4 Times, the WCW World Tag Team Title once, and the WCW U.S. Title once.

    So, with the 23 Hardcore Reigns.. that's... 30.



31. As Scotty Flamingo, he was WCW Light-Heavyweight Champion (def. Brian Pillman at Beach Blast '92)
WyldeWolf1
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#10 Posted on 10.7.02 1422.57
Reposted on: 10.7.09 1424.19
The fact that the Hardcore Title is still rearing its ugly head makes me a sad, sad WyldeWolf1. Two people beating the crap out of each other ECW-style is cool; thirty people sneaking pinfalls in with their personal ref is stupid.
Freeway
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#11 Posted on 10.7.02 1433.44
Reposted on: 10.7.09 1437.41
A similar incident occured in the WWF's tour of Japan in the 70s. Bob Backlund dropped the title to Antonio Inoki, who dropped it back to Backlund. Of course, due to a screwy finish in a later tour match, Backlund vacated the title and subsequently rewon it. The WWF thought that was a pretty retarded way to get more title reigns, so they only count the changes as Backlund, Inoki, Backlund instead of Backlund, Inoki, Backlund, vacant, Backlund.
SmooveK
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#12 Posted on 10.7.02 1443.30
Reposted on: 10.7.09 1452.02
Is there any resource that is considered the authority on title histories? Is the WWE history be considered the highest authority?

-K
kazhayashi81
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#13 Posted on 10.7.02 1604.13
Reposted on: 10.7.09 1606.07

    Originally posted by SmooveK
    Is there any resource that is considered the authority on title histories? Is the WWE history be considered the highest authority?

    -K



The most thorough on the net is at www.puroresu.com
The Sham
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#14 Posted on 10.7.02 1739.45
Reposted on: 10.7.09 1740.37
Why does anyone care how many times someone has won a title... if Ric Flair has won 16 World title, he's also LOST 16 world titles (since he doesn't have one now).

Wouldn't it be more impressive if he NEVER lost? I know that hasn't happened, but I think we should keep track of how LONG someone has held a certain title... That was we can forget the hardcore crap, and value RVD's ECW TV title reign more than Rhino's (unless you still consider Rhino the ECW TV champ).

Booker T is a 5-Time WCW champ... aren't there people who held the title longer and successfully defended it more times?

This would also clear up the problem of double switches... I doubt people would get as worked up over a two or three day difference.

SmooveK
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#15 Posted on 10.7.02 1814.25
Reposted on: 10.7.09 1819.09

    Originally posted by The Sham
    Why does anyone care how many times someone has won a title... if Ric Flair has won 16 World title, he's also LOST 16 world titles (since he doesn't have one now).

    Wouldn't it be more impressive if he NEVER lost? I know that hasn't happened, but I think we should keep track of how LONG someone has held a certain title... That was we can forget the hardcore crap, and value RVD's ECW TV title reign more than Rhino's (unless you still consider Rhino the ECW TV champ).

    Booker T is a 5-Time WCW champ... aren't there people who held the title longer and successfully defended it more times?

    This would also clear up the problem of double switches... I doubt people would get as worked up over a two or three day difference.




Well, of course longer reigns are better, but multiple time champions show that they are CAPABLE of winning the biggest prize many times, showing that they are not fluke champions. And, unless title switching gets TOO extreme, it shows somebody's talent in being a main eventer for a lengthy period.

-K
deadbeater
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#16 Posted on 10.7.02 1831.29
Reposted on: 10.7.09 1838.47
Besides, the WWE's policy of rotating pushes ensures that no one stays on top for too long.

Chyna, had she felt like it, could have easily held the Women's championship for at least two years, unless she took tours in Japan.
Dahak
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#17 Posted on 10.7.02 1836.05
Reposted on: 10.7.09 1856.54

    Originally posted by The Sham
    Why does anyone care how many times someone has won a title... if Ric Flair has won 16 World title, he's also LOST 16 world titles (since he doesn't have one now).

    Wouldn't it be more impressive if he NEVER lost? I know that hasn't happened, but I think we should keep track of how LONG someone has held a certain title... That was we can forget the hardcore crap, and value RVD's ECW TV title reign more than Rhino's (unless you still consider Rhino the ECW TV champ).

    Booker T is a 5-Time WCW champ... aren't there people who held the title longer and successfully defended it more times?

    This would also clear up the problem of double switches... I doubt people would get as worked up over a two or three day difference.





You have a point about quality over quality. If WCW was still in buisness I would guess that JJ and Booker would be up to 20 times each. But the last long WWF title reign belonged to Diesel and it is considered to be one of the worst reigns ever. Low PPV sales, loss of revenue, and decreased ratings. So a good champ with a long reign like Flair or Hogan can do a lot for a company. A bad champ with a long reign makes the show boring.
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#18 Posted on 11.7.02 0509.46
Reposted on: 11.7.09 0512.00

    Originally posted by The Sham
    Why does anyone care how many times someone has won a title... if Ric Flair has won 16 World title, he's also LOST 16 world titles (since he doesn't have one now).

    Wouldn't it be more impressive if he NEVER lost? I know that hasn't happened, but I think we should keep track of how LONG someone has held a certain title... That was we can forget the hardcore crap, and value RVD's ECW TV title reign more than Rhino's (unless you still consider Rhino the ECW TV champ).

    Booker T is a 5-Time WCW champ... aren't there people who held the title longer and successfully defended it more times?



Lou Thesz held the NWA title for 4400+ days. I think that's the record.

(Fabulous Moolah doesn't count, because her title was inactive for most of her supposed reign)

ekedolphin
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#19 Posted on 11.7.02 0643.08
Reposted on: 11.7.09 0656.33
“If WCW were still in business I guess that JJ and Booker would be up to about 20 title reigns each.”

Well, this probably shouldn't come as much of a surprise to anybody, but there was talk in 2000 that Vince Russo was trying to get 17 title reigns for Jarrett as quickly as possible just to spite Flair.

But I disagree with the idea that Jarrett would be a 20-time champion in today's WCW, simply because his very last title reign ended at Bash at the Beach 2000. After Booker won his first WCW World Title, Jarrett competed for it a few times, but never won it again-- and eventually dropped out of world title contention entirely.

Booker... maybe. Not a 20-time champion, but probably 7 times by now. If you'll remember, Booker T's fifth title reign was in the WCW controlled by the WWF, so he was only a four-time champion at the time of the buyout. But with the exception of time taken off for storyline purposes, Booker had been an integral part of the WCW main event scene for the past eight months, so I'll grant that Booker probably would've won the WCW World Title a few more times by now.
Dahak
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#20 Posted on 11.7.02 2058.33
Reposted on: 11.7.09 2059.01
Eke I did exagarate about the 20 times. Not even Russo would have 30 world title switches in less than 2 years. JJ and Booker would probably be around 10 each. With Sting having 2 or 3 more runs. But Russo is always willing to have new champs. So just imagine all that WCW champs their would have been. Kidman, Tank, Pulambo, O'Haire, Stasiak, and Bagwell. Not that I really would want any of those people to be the champ but some might be interesting if done right.
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