VK Wallstreet
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| #21 Posted on 9.7.02 2217.14 Reposted on: 9.7.09 2218.31 | Yeah, it's a very different environment. I don't think half the fans know what WCW is -- he's solidly a WWE guy by this point. These are wrestling fans we're talking about, remember. Besides, I never understood the logic that Vince is "keeping WCW guys down" or that the fans won't accept WCW guys -- almost the entire roster was in WCW at one time or another.
As for his status as a comedy guy -- yeah, but he's not pure comedy like, say, Crash Holly. He doesn't have enough big wins, but that can be fixed pretty easily. He's as much a comedy guy as Kurt Angle ever was. Mind you, Kurt didn't draw as champ, but I think that's because he wasn't perceived as an ass kicker more than anything else. You're supposed to laugh at Booker, but you're also supposed to think he can rip your head off. | TheBucsFan
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| #22 Posted on 9.7.02 2230.39 Reposted on: 9.7.09 2233.37 |
Originally posted by VK Wallstreet I never understood the logic that Vince is "keeping WCW guys down" or that the fans won't accept WCW guys -- almost the entire roster was in WCW at one time or another.
While a guy might have been in WCW before, his character wasn't. Vince really only seems to get really behind his own characters.
For example, Paul Levesque was in WCW for a short while, but Triple H wasn't. Paul Wight was in WCW, but not as The Big Show. A few exceptions would be Jericho and Benoit, but Vince has yet to really get behind them as top guys of the Austin/Triple H mold. | thetrendsetter
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| #23 Posted on 11.7.02 0702.57 Reposted on: 11.7.09 0704.01 | HBK needs to step up here,
Have Booker T beat Show at vengenace Beat X-Pac at summerslam in a gimmick match (Cage) then have him beat HBK in the main event of the september PPV to establish himself as a main event face... | WhoBettahThanDeion
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| #24 Posted on 11.7.02 0733.30 Reposted on: 11.7.09 0736.53 | "HBK needs to step up here,
Have Booker T beat Show at vengenace Beat X-Pac at summerslam in a gimmick match (Cage) then have him beat HBK in the main event of the september PPV to establish himself as a main event face..."
Well, I don't know HOW Michaels would step up, seeing as how it appears he's on in an even more limited capacity than I expected. But, personally, I don't care if Booker DOES beat this has-been. There's only four people who can get Booker over with a big win. Angle, Triple H, Taker and Rock. Booker's wrestling style isn't the most over thing with the straights (namely the regular non-internet non-smark fans), as shown by the usual quiet that follows his matches, DURING. And as for "Sucka'" being over, it seems as if it's one of those things where the catchphrase is more over than the wrestler. It sucks, but they look forward to the "Sucka'" part more than they do the other, IMPORTANT part of his interviews, where he talks about his opponent, his match, etc.
While I want to see Booker get over. I want to see a world title run just ONCE. I don't see it happen.
As for that guy who said he'd keep the belt away from Benoit, as far away as possible, that's ignorant. The guy was as close as he was ever gonna' get before he got hurt. He was on the verge of getting some of the largest "guy can wrestle" pops. I can't think of anyone else who's moveset drew more "Aaah's" from the audience. And those counted suplexe's were just awesome. Benoit has a title run in him. He's just not ready yet. It's like him coming back from the injury is making him have to start over again, where as those damn "Beautiful Day" music stuff seemed to only establish that THAT guy was going to come out on top. I'm not even one of the "Benoit's a God" guys. I didn't even follow him UNTIL he came to WWF. I just wish the guy had gotten the hype machine around him before he came back. | MoeGates
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| #25 Posted on 11.7.02 0829.24 Reposted on: 11.7.09 0832.25 | I agree that Booker´s wrestling style needs to be more varied. A common complaint among my mark friends is ''all he does is kick.'' He needs to add a big finisher (Jesus, just add a little flourish - maybe a 180º - to the Bookend and it´ll be fine) and a few power moves to his aresenal (nothing too fancy, I´m just talking about throwing a few more Suplexes, Spinebusters and other assorted regular slams) before his wrestling style is going to really get over. Also bring back the measured chop he did early in his WWF run.
I think his mic work (and character) are over, not just his catchphrase. I mean, he´s been using ''Can you dig it...Sucka'' for quite a while now, and it just started getting over when his character started getting over. Calling X-Pac a ''ratty little puckass sucka'' was pretty popular for instance. Of course, that might just be because making fun of X-pac is popular.
Also they´re doing a good job by not having him do the Spinaroonie every show. When the Rock was turning face for the first time is when he started only doing the People´s elbow every few shows instead of every show. It´s important in making the character more than just a gimmick move and a catchphrase.
Booker needs a definitive victory in a blow-off match in a feud with a high upper midcarder (Think SCSA´s victory over Rock in late 97, or Rock going over Shamrock and Mankind in the cage match in the fall of 98, or HHH beating Rock in the latter-match in the summer of 99) followed by a feud with the upper-card before he can be considered for a title run.
I think the main problem is that he´s in his late 30s and has said he´s only going to wrestle a year or two more. That´s not good when the WWE seems to be in a transistion phase where they want to build new stars for the future. | Scott Summets
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| #26 Posted on 11.7.02 0851.46 Reposted on: 11.7.09 0859.03 | For some reason I always want to see Booker bust out a Whiplash beacuse he always did it in WCW/NWO Revenge. | Papercuts!
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| #27 Posted on 11.7.02 0927.06 Reposted on: 11.7.09 0929.01 |
Originally posted by MoeGates Also they´re doing a good job by not having him do the Spinaroonie every show. When the Rock was turning face for the first time is when he started only doing the People´s elbow every few shows instead of every show. It´s important in making the character more than just a gimmick move and a catchphrase.
See, this is exactly why I don't think audiences "take him seriously" yet. He *IS* just a catchphrase (as evidenced by a number of posts in this thread). I think he's basically where Road Dogg was at the height of his popularity -- the crowd waits for the catchphrase and nothing more, really, because it gives them something to do. I agree that limiting the spinaroonie is a step in the right direction towards reducing that pavlovian response. As long as they continue to pair him with Golddust and dress him as a lumberjack and whatnot, he'll be equated with comedy.
Originally posted by MoeGates Booker needs a definitive victory in a blow-off match in a feud with a high upper midcarder followed by a feud with the upper-card before he can be considered for a title run.
Or before he's taken seriously, even. The fans have been shown that he can't beat the Rock (who everyone else seems to be able to beat) -- has he even won ONE high-profile feud?
Again, I like Booker and I'd love to see him get ahead. I just think the way he is booked right now and the way he has been booked over the past year hasn't helped him at all.
Originally posted by VK Wallstreet I don't think half the fans know what WCW is
You're kidding, right? Vince reminds them EVERY CHANCE HE GETS. | Lexus
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| #28 Posted on 11.7.02 0950.26 Reposted on: 11.7.09 0959.04 | Far be it from me to go into a tirade of armchair booking and the like, but personally...
BOOKER T vs. BENOIT IS A GOOD THING.
I would really enjoy the matches, and I think they might even have the same kind of chemistry that Rock and HHH had when Rock and HHH were going for the IC Title. If that program happened, I would not be surprised if they wound up being BIG TIME MAIN EVENT within 2 years.
But then again, that could just be because I'm a Booker and Benoit fan. | VK Wallstreet
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| #29 Posted on 11.7.02 0956.15 Reposted on: 11.7.09 0959.07 |
Originally posted by WhoBettahThanDeion
As for that guy who said he'd keep the belt away from Benoit, as far away as possible, that's ignorant. The guy was as close as he was ever gonna' get before he got hurt. He was on the verge of getting some of the largest "guy can wrestle" pops. I can't think of anyone else who's moveset drew more "Aaah's" from the audience. And those counted suplexe's were just awesome. Benoit has a title run in him. He's just not ready yet. It's like him coming back from the injury is making him have to start over again, where as those damn "Beautiful Day" music stuff seemed to only establish that THAT guy was going to come out on top. I'm not even one of the "Benoit's a God" guys. I didn't even follow him UNTIL he came to WWF. I just wish the guy had gotten the hype machine around him before he came back.
Oh, yeah, that was me. Benoit is certainly a fine wrestler -- I've never been THAT enamored with him and think the flying headbutt is silly, but I've always enjoyed his matches and will even acknowledge he's probably the best wrestler wrestler in WWE. However, it takes more than that to be champ. It takes more than hype. It takes better promo skills than he'll ever have, it takes an out-of-ring charisma that he lacks, and unfortunately, it takes a better look. (Not to mention different tights. Main eventers should never wear long tights, unless it has a top with it. Only guy it ever worked for was Michaels. This means you, too, Jericho.) Benoit has a lot of tools, and those tools would work to get him to the top in Japan or a hypothetical Internet-only world. But like it or not, it's sports entertainment, and it's sports entertainment for a reason. Because sports entertainment works with the unwashed masses. And sue me, I like it, too. As long as it doesn't go too overboard. Thrilling them in the ring is a good niche, but thrilling them both in and out of the ring is what makes a world champion in WWE.
I hate to bring up Scott Keith, but I was reading him this one time and I believe he was bashing the decision to bring in Jamie Noble as a cruiserweight title challenger because he was aligned with Nidia, the Hurricane's stalker. I thought the angle was pretty entertaining myself. SK said something like, "Hey, here's a revolutionary idea: How about bringing in Noble as a challenger just because he wants the Hurricane's title?" Well, Scott, because nobody really wants to see that, that's why. The point is you have to make people care about these things, and Benoit can't sustain that -- at least not at a main-event level.
Originally posted by Papercuts! See, this is exactly why I don't think audiences "take him seriously" yet. He *IS* just a catchphrase (as evidenced by a number of posts in this thread). I think he's basically where Road Dogg was at the height of his popularity -- the crowd waits for the catchphrase and nothing more, really, because it gives them something to do. ... You're kidding, right? Vince reminds them EVERY CHANCE HE GETS.
There's a very big difference between Booker and the Road Dogg. Booker is immensely talented. Road Dogg is quite possibly my least favorite wrestler ever. But more relevantly, Booker does something different every time, then drops the catchphrase. Get some old Road Dogg tapes -- why you'd want to do that, I don't know -- it's the same thing every time, practically word for word. When I watch Booker, I know the catchphrase is going to happen, but I don't know what to expect before it. And I still say he was way over before the catchphrase. Not as over, but certainly over enough.
The fans may know what WCW is, but I don't think Vince reminds them all that often, nor do I think they care. They don't see Booker as a WCW guy any more than they see Big Show (who very much came in as a former WCW guy, despite the name change -- similar ring attire equals same gimmick) as a WCW guy, despite the five-time schtick. And many have rightly observed before that Vince himself doesn't care who he made; he cares what makes him money. If successful WCW guys have failed before, it's because they just didn't work in the admittedly different WWF/E environment. | The Amazing Salami
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| #30 Posted on 11.7.02 1016.55 Reposted on: 11.7.09 1028.13 | Call me crazy but from where I sit it appears that great mic skills (Rock, Austin) and/or a big body (Big Show, Lesnar, HHH) and a sustained push are really all it takes to be a WWE champ. The move set isn't that important (see Rock, SCSA, Hogan). Booker has good mic skills so he could probably be a fine champion. | WyldeWolf1
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| #31 Posted on 11.7.02 1019.37 Reposted on: 11.7.09 1029.01 | I think it needs to be stated that reactions from the live crowd do NOT mean that a wrestler is credible as a main event. It doesn't even necessarily mean that the wrestler is over.
Porn star Val Venis used to get lots of cheers for his raunchy promos, but no one wanted to see then-champ Steve Austin bother with this guy.
Road Dogg got the crowd to pop loud with his catchphrases, but did he even look credible as an IC champ?
Basically, don't think someone is over because: 1) Internet smarks like him. 2) Crowds cheer at expected points/entrances.
I think Booker is getting over slowly, but isn't really at that level of credibility yet. I honestly think a strong IC run would do him good. It could show him as a cut above the midcarders, where I think people still see him.
Benoit was at that level last year, and I think after a "refresher course" for the casual fans, he can be there again. I think he could benefit from a mouthpiece, though. | Parts Unknown
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| #32 Posted on 11.7.02 1049.52 Reposted on: 11.7.09 1057.46 |
Originally posted by WyldeWolf1 Benoit was at that level last year, and I think after a "refresher course" for the casual fans, he can be there again. I think he could benefit from a mouthpiece, though.
I say screw that plan. I love Benoit's promos and think he's one of the last guys in the world who need some dumb valet or manager hanging around. He's intense. He's menacing. He doesn't need to be anything else. | The Amazing Salami
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| #33 Posted on 11.7.02 1147.27 Reposted on: 11.7.09 1148.07 | Maybe they serve their purpose but I hate all valets and managers. They totally bug me. I'm not sure why but I can never get into a wrestler that his a valet or manager. | TheBucsFan
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| #34 Posted on 11.7.02 1351.51 Reposted on: 11.7.09 1358.39 | "Charisma" is such a stupid word. Can someone tell me exactly what it means?
According to my Websters Dictionary, it means "A special magnetic charm or appeal, provoking popular loyalty from others."
It doesn't mean being able to sing well on a mic like the Rock or reel off a million insults a minute like The Rock. It doesn't mean being able to use subtle changes in tone of voice to get over what a smart ass you are like Jericho. And it doesn't mean to be able to pretend you are a doofus ala Kurt Angle. Benoit has "charisma" like everyone else. He just uses it differently to get over a different persona.
(edited by TheBucsFan on 11.7.02 1452) | deadbeater
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| #35 Posted on 11.7.02 1408.02 Reposted on: 11.7.09 1413.59 | Bucs, you are right. Benoit's charisma is of a different kind. But I think I hit upon what Benoit needs: extensive interaction with the fans. It is not in his nature to talk trash about others, but it doesn't mean that he can't have mean fun at fans' expense. He can't beat fans up, but he can maenace them from time to time. Little things like that.
(edited by deadbeater on 11.7.02 1510) | Papercuts!
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| #36 Posted on 11.7.02 1418.31 Reposted on: 11.7.09 1419.10 |
Originally posted by TheBucsFan "A special magnetic charm or appeal, provoking popular loyalty from others."
Right. And remember, YOU posted this.
Originally posted by TheBucsFan It doesn't mean being able to sing well on a mic like the Rock or reel off a million insults a minute like The Rock.
Yes it does. Rock's "reeling off a million insults a minute" and "being able to sing well" is a special magnetic appeal that provokes popular loyalty from others.
Originally posted by TheBucsFan It doesn't mean being able to use subtle changes in tone of voice to get over what a smart ass you are like Jericho.
Yes it does. Jericho's "subtle changes in tone of voice to get over what a smart ass he is" is a special magnetic charm that provokes popular loyalty from others.
Originally posted by TheBucsFan
And it doesn't mean to be able to pretend you are a doofus ala Kurt Angle.
Yes it does. Because Angle pretending to be a doofus is a special magnetic charm that provokes loyalty from others.
Originally posted by TheBucsFan Benoit has "charisma" like everyone else.
You're right here, too. His charisma, according to the definition you posted is in his ability. Unfortunately, it's not the kind of charisma the WWE audience as a whole takes to.
Disagree away...I'm sure that's not what you meant to say or something. | TheIronGeek
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| #37 Posted on 11.7.02 1446.02 Reposted on: 11.7.09 1446.38 | I was in MSG for RAW one night a long time ago and the main event was Rock vs. Benoit for the strap. I was probably the only Crippler fan in my section but as the match progressed all of the Rock fans were getting nervous as Benoit mangled their beloved hero. Children were crying, Rock fans were yelling obsenities, and I was overjoyed at Benoit's surgical dismantling of the Rock. But just as I was getting ready to revel in Benoit's first WWF title win, the Rock pulled it out.
The kids jumped up and down, the Rock fan behind me grinned and shook my hand because he actually thought Rock was going to lose...but didn't.
Benoit carried the match, but the Rock carried his fans into caring that he was going to lose the strap. That is what every legitimate heel needs, the ability to make the babyfaces' fans worry that their face is gonna lose to the monster heel. Benoit played it perfectly that night in front of 17,000 fans at MSG, and I know he can get back there again one day soon.
Just my 2 cents.
Oh yeah...Booker rules. | WhoBettahThanDeion
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| #38 Posted on 11.7.02 1448.31 Reposted on: 11.7.09 1448.43 | Amazing Salami Writes:
"Call me crazy but from where I sit it appears that great mic skills (Rock, Austin) and/or a big body (Big Show, Lesnar, HHH) and a sustained push are really all it takes to be a WWE champ. The move set isn't that important (see Rock, SCSA, Hogan). Booker has good mic skills so he could probably be a fine champion."
I always notice that when it comes to people talking about not varying their movesets of having limited moves, everyone mentions the Rock. So, I thought I'd list them, in the order I can remember:
1. People's Elbow 2. Rock Bottom 3. DDT 4. Neckbreaker 5. Belly to Belly Suplex 6. running double arm thingy (opponent runs at him, he flips them) 7. Samoan Drop 8. Spinebuster 9. Superplex (ppv's only) 10. Sleeper Hold 11. Sharpshooter 12. Low Blow (on ground, used to talk trash beforehand) 13. Punch 14. Spit Punch 15. Rock Stomp 16. Rock Flying Elbow 17. Clothesline 18. Spinning DDT (ppv's only) 19. Schoolboy 20. Small Package 21. Standard Suplex 22. Side Russian Leg Sweep 23. Spinning Leg Takedown (can't think of it's real name, but it's his setup move for the Sharpshooter)
Also, I did actually WATCH two of Rock's matches while doing this and didn't include his "stealing the other guy's finisher," which is technically a move. Sure, some people won't count punches, but hey, if someone on the roster does it badly (Hurricane), then it's a move. This was also taken from my "Best of the Rock" Volume three tape, where he faces Shamrock in a steel cage, and then later Mark Henry (sighs) BOTH on ppv matches, and not from the Iron Man match (which probably would have moved his moveset up another 10 moves).
How can you say that Rock DOESN'T have a somewhat varied moveset? 23 moves is a lot, even if he does only some of them on pay per views. I mean I couldn't name 23 moves of Triple H's. Now, I ask what is wrong with Rock's moveset? As for Austin, he really started varying his when he became a heel, I had no problems with his moveset at all, when he was in full on heel mode.
Back to Booker, I agree with the "He's Road Dogg Over" statement as his catchphrases and dancing DO seem to be the most over parts of him. I also agree see Bucs Fans point on Benoit and agree heartily. Benoit's a badass. Not a Stone Cold I'm gonna' talk for five minutes type, but the "I'm not a talker, I'm a doer type." Period.
(edited by WhoBettahThanDeion on 11.7.02 1249) | ALL ORIGINAL POSTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW AVAILABLE |
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